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Jeez, its hilarious how many pansies are on this board. Oh my god, during an 82 game season in a physical sport a punch was thrown in practice :eek: THROW THAT HOOLIGAN IN JAIL CAUSE STUFF LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS!!!! WE NEED MORE VAGIN*S IN THE NBA :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.
Swap Pippen with a 33 year old Jordan with those Rockets and he probably leads them to a title. Put a 34 year old Jordan on that Blazers team and they also probably win the championship.
Why don't I use Google to put together a MJ thread? Because I don't need to. I don't have an agenda that needs to be pushed so desperately that I'd spend an hour on Google to make a thread with cherry picked quotes in it as if its a school project or something.[/QUOTE]
Again. This isnt a Jordan vs Pippen thing. No one has ever implied that Pippen was as good as Jordan.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t. [/QUOTE]
This post illustrates how you don't understand what is being discussed. We are talking about leadership skills, not basketball skills. He had a chance to be a locker room and team leader--and his tactics led to teammates tuning him out.
[QUOTE]He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming, 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.’[/QUOTE]
That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. McCray was a 9 year starter before coming to Chicago. He was barely even used in the playoffs (0.3 ppg and 5.6 mpg)--and was out of the NBA after 93'--thanks in part to being destroyed. How does that help the team? He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.
[QUOTE]But Jordan absolutely needed Pippen to temper his edge with the right amount of coaxing and personable style. Jordan's harsh leadership style generally isn't very effective, tbh.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Right on both counts.
[QUOTE]Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.[/QUOTE]
Jordan mythologists will continue to get called out. :pimp:
[QUOTE=97 bulls]You want to name instances in which a player actually took himself out of a game? Lebron James just did it with 8 minutes to go in the NBA Finals. The Pistons left with the court early in 91.[/QUOTE]
Stop it :oldlol:
Pulling yourself out due to injury (or even heat exhaustion) and not shaking hands after a game is over is nowhere remotely the same as a guy sitting out the final seconds of a pivotal, close basketball game solely because his feelings were hurt because the coach (rightfully) wanted this guy to take the final shot:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs[/url]
[url]http://youtu.be/MjS-aKBlBXU?t=4m41s[/url]
Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.
Dat Leadership.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]This post illustrates how you don't understand what is being discussed. We are talking about leadership skills, not basketball skills. He had a chance to be a locker room and team leader--and his tactics led to teammates tuning him out.
That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. McCray was a starter before coming to Chicago. He was barely even used in the playoffs (0.3 ppg and 5.6 mpg) thanks to being destroyed. How does that help the team? He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.
Exactly. Right on both counts.
Jordan mythologists will continue to get called out. :pimp:[/QUOTE]
No one gives a sh*t about what a 40-year-old says. You really think the Bulls in 04 were really giving two poops about what a washed up Pippen was telling them? He might as well been the team mascot.
Leadership doesn't mean anything if you can't back up your words with impact on the floor, no one respects a leader that just talks.
Maybe Kwame Brown was just a bust? Is that ever a possibility? We're talking about the same guy who told Kobe Bryant to NOT pass him the ball in a time out.
If you can't handle being called a p*ssy on a basketball court, odds are you are not going to last long in the NBA. Other players will call you far worse.
And stop with the Jordan "mythologists" bullsh*t. His career doesn't need to be mythologized, he was simply that good. Get over it.
[QUOTE]It's absolutely true and psychological in nature. (Received 'some' aspects of MJ's personality anyway). Emotions are infectious-- ESPECIALLY from charismatic people. Jordan's intensity and focus definitely affected and rubbed off his entire team.[/QUOTE]
It's true that leaders work ethics and confidence tend to rub off on the ones he leading, but not his personality.
Jordan got respect because he set a high bar and then exceeded that bar himself.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]It's true that leaders work ethics and confidence tend to rub off on the ones he leading, but not his personality.
Jordan got respect because he set a high bar and then exceeded that bar himself.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Finally some sanity at least from one of you two.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.
[/QUOTE]
That's partly my point. He wasn't a 'good' leader in the sense that he wasn't able to adapt his leadership to accommodate everyone's unique personality and ego. (Scottie helped with that).
But his leadership is particularly effective and good when he's leading people with certain traits. Give him good people and he'll make them great.
But ideally, the 'perfect' leaders would be Magic/Bird.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Stop it :oldlol:
Pulling yourself out due to injury (or even heat exhaustion) and not shaking hands after a game is over is nowhere remotely the same as a guy sitting out the final seconds of a pivotal, close basketball game solely because his feelings were hurt because the coach (rightfully) wanted this guy to take the final shot:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs[/url]
[url]http://youtu.be/MjS-aKBlBXU?t=4m41s[/url]
Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.
Dat Leadership.[/QUOTE]
Lol its all bad sportsmanship. James wasnt injured when he took himself out in game five. He quit on his team. Isnt that what youre berating Pippen for?
Who knows what could've happened? Tracy Mcgrady scored 11 pts in just over a minute. The same with Reggie Miller.
round ball lecock using team mates and off the court personality as arguments against jordan. :oldlol: :lol :roll:
stop trolling son! :facepalm
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses
phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.[/QUOTE]
MJ has more career triple doubles than Pippen, averaged far more points, and shot better from the field and the line. He also averaged more steals than Pippen, and more assists. Pip and Jordan shot the same from 3 and averaged the same blocks. The only thing he (Pippen) did better was rebound. Sorry, but Jordan was demonstrably better, and easily so. Pippen was great, but don't get carried away, Jordan is a GOAT-caliber player.
[QUOTE]Leadership doesn't mean anything if you can't back up your words with impact on the floor, no one respects a leader that just talks. [/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m19vmac8vq1qcmnsoo1_400.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE][B][U]Derek Fisher is a natural-born leader[/U][/B]
Published: June 10, 2014 7:32 PM[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Fisher has zero coaching experience. What he does have, say those who know him like his new boss Knicks president Phil Jackson, is [B]the ability to figure out what needs to be done and then persuade others to do it.
"Derek was one of those players who's unique in his ability to speak to the players both in their spirit and hearts and resonate with them as to what the purpose was and what we were attempting to do," said Jackson, who had Fisher on all five of his championship teams with the Lakers.[/B]
In Los Angeles, it was often said that [B]Jackson leaned heavily on Fisher to be the bridge between Kobe Bryant and the rest of the planet.[/B] In New York, Jackson will lean on Fisher to be the bridge between his not-so-easy-to-learn triangle offense and a veteran roster that might balk at making major changes and sacrifices to their game.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Essentially, [B]he was the voice of that team’s inner spirit, and as Jackson put it yesterday, he “always (filled) the vacuum of leadership.[/B] It was the ability of Derek to speak the truth about (the) sense of the group.[B] The coach can’t always do that. He relies on his leaders to do that.[/B] And he (subjugated) his own role to help the team form.”[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/dalessandro_in_derek_fisher_the_knicks_have_a_natural_leader_but_they_still_lack_players.html[/url]
[QUOTE]Derek Fisher's absence leaves leadership void
March 21, 2012|By Mark Medina[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Derek Fisher wouldn't have solved the Lakers' on-court execution in their 107-104 loss Tuesday to the Houston Rockets. But he would've been there in the locker room to calm everyone down.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Fisher contributed to those problems with his inconsistent shooting and slow reaction on defense. [B]But his frequent meetings emphasizing the need to get over the frustration with the roster uncertainty and the coaching staff prevented a big problem from getting worse.[/B]
"That's one of the many things he did for his team," Brown said of Fisher's leadership. "[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
[B]Bryant still assumes his co-captain position and leads through his talent and work ethic. But he doesn't have the personality and patience to assuage his teammates' frustration level. [/B]Pau [B]Gasol has assumed the co-captain role, but he always defers to Bryant[/B] and doesn't have the same willingness to challenge Bryant as Fisher did. [/QUOTE]
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/21/sports/la-sp-ln-la-derek-fisher-leadership-20120320[/url]
[QUOTE]“They had come together as rookies and trusted each other implicitly. Derek is more patient than Kobe and more balanced in his approach.[B] While Kobe informed the team with his drive to win, Fish had a gift for inspiring players with his words keeping them grounded and focused.”[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]In the book Jackson quoted Lakers’ forward [B]Luke Walton on Fisher: “Every time Derek gave a speech, I felt there should be music playing in the background like one of those epic sports movies.’’[/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://nypost.com/2014/05/29/phil-is-a-fan-of-fishers-leadership-style/[/url]
Fisher is a career role player who barely played later in his career but was a great leader. The Kobe-Fisher dynamic resembles Jordan-Pippen in many ways.
[QUOTE=LeBird]I like these stories too, they really further your appreciation for the kind of man he was as a teammate. Dude laid it all out there for his team and teammates. He basically transformed himself into the player his team needed him to be. Who knows if we ever saw the true Scottie Pippen.[/QUOTE]
Jordan stans are too far up MJ's ass to appreciate the level of excellence that MJ was blessed to have on his team. Pippen being great shouldn't diminish MJ at all. These losers don't love basketball though. Them hoes love players instead.
What is this bullshit about MJ not being a leader and using the Wizards stint as an example.
THE biggest objective in a sport is to WIN.
It is a leader's job to lead a team to victory aka WINS.
Who cares if the player is liked. What matters is results. Anybody that says otherwise has never been in a leadership role.
MJ as a Wiz showed his leadership by earning them wins. He pushed them in practice, and was their leader during the games.
MJ led them to 19 more wins than the previous season. The Wiz had a legit shot at making the playoffs if MJ didn't get injured.
Rip credited MJ in his development as a player as well. He improved his off the ball game, which is what he became known for. So he made Kwame cry... big deal. So he wasn't liked... big deal, they won more than their previous season.
Shit... wanna talk about a leader?
How about making a chump like Pippen into a hall of fame player.
If that's not leadership I don't know what is.
[QUOTE=Mr Exlax]Jordan stans are too far up MJ's ass to appreciate the level of excellence that MJ was blessed to have on his team. Pippen being great shouldn't diminish MJ at all. These losers don't love basketball though. Them hoes love players instead.[/QUOTE]
It is hilarious how MJ stans repeatedly opine (negatively) on Pippen's leadership yet when someone puts forward hard evidence in favor of Pippen in this regard--after years of attacks from MJ stans--they throw a collective temper tantrum and call it unjust, trolling. They want to police people's thoughts and shut down any views that don't align with the mythology they promote.
Note that no one disputed what Jackson said in the OP. The closest you had was one guy arguing MJ had superior impact as a leader. No one is disputing that Pippen was indeed a team leader--even if they are irate at that fact. :oldlol: