How is it even questionable that MJ is GOAT?

I've ordered the 1993-1994 Philly Sixers Media Guide.

It is supposed to show the number of dunks each NBA player got for the previous 6 years (1988-1993 seasons) - this type of information is not available with a Google search.

I already have media guides showing 3 years of data, and it shows Jordan dunking about 140 times per year and as much as 153 times... I looked up dunk stats for Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Paul George, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter - all of these guys had literally less than half as many dunks each year...

It's interesting because even though some of Kobe's highlights are comparable to Jordan's standard, I always thought Jordan was far more athletic, and this pretty much proves it - Kobe was indeed relying on that jumpshot as much as it [I]looked[/I] like he was at times (in comparison with Jordan, who obviously was attacking much more)... With McGrady and Paul George - even though some of their highlights compare to Jordan's standard, the consistency wasn't there and I always thought they were more frail than Jordan and lacked the strength and power that Jordan went up with.

The only wing players from this era that have as many dunks as Jordan is Durant and Lebron, who routinely have over 100 dunks, just like Jordan... Neither of them have had a 153 dunk year.. [I]and neither of them played when the NBA allowed defenders to occupy the paint[/I], which was before the defensive 3 seconds rule came into effect.. well, actually Lebron played his rookie year before the rule changes - he shot 48% TS.

Durant and Lebron also don't play with the type of shot-blocking bigs Jordan faced.. and the average NBA height is shorter today than it was back then... here are height stats for the NBA... [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing_experience[/url]

When I get the dunk data for the full 6 years (1988-1993), i'll make a thread and post it with a screen shot.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid][url]http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/[/url]


Not sure on the calculations. I think it is probably just xRAPM. But I would also assume box score influenced +/- would favor MJ.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, but I'm gonna have to assume that that's rubbish calculation due to the lack of play by play data from back then. There's no way in hell that Durant/Lebron have twice the impact of prime Jordan. That doesn't pass the smell test.

I have MJ as my GOAT, but it's mainly due to that Ali and Babe Ruth factor and just dominating the game in a way NO PERIMETER PLAYER EVER HAS! Top to bottom, guys like Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Bird had WAY BETTER supporting casts than MJ ever did. MJ cut his teeth in the Golden Era of the NBA and was THE GUY to take the game worldwide after Magic and Bird set the table.

But I wouldn't argue is someone said Kareem was the GOAT. Kareem's resume is just as impressive as MJ's. Wilt was a mythical figure like a Ruth or Ali too and he has a case due to that. And Russell has the most rings and Magic was the most versatile player of all time until Lebron came around. So any of those five I guess u could argue, but I rolling with MJ!

[QUOTE=Psileas]And Russell having no stans (whatever you mean by "stans") is supposed to be our fault now? This is a board heavily focused on stats and the vast majority of posters are way too young to even care about players they didn't see play. Do you even think I (and others) somehow like it that Russell doesn't get more talk?
Lazeruss happens to believe that Wilt was individually better than Russell and focuses on this (that's, I suppose, why he's Wilt fan). But some others believe that Russell was nothing more than Joakim Noah or Dikembe Mutombo. So, who's exactly more anti-Russell again? [B]And how come you, a supposed fan of him, are never there to refute their claims?[/B][/QUOTE]

Why should I? A troll post like "Russell=Noah" is not worth refuting. Every knowledgeable poster knows its BS. Is it not enough that I consider him #2? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Asukal]Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO st[B]ans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt[/B]. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


Find me any list of mine in which I have Russell lower than #5 all-time.

In fact, here is MY Top-5 right now...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Russell

And that is the LOWEST I have EVER ranked him.

I have been one of his biggest supporters on the forum, even if I don't think he was as great as Wilt.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Sadly I don't think ISH wants to do this because it would cut down on traffic to the forum, but unfortunately it's also made this board the butt end of jokes on other basketball forums.
[/QUOTE]
Other basketball forums as in places where fun-deprived, egomaniacal basketball geeks go to take themselves seriously and m********e on their alleged knowledge of basketball as if it's nuclear physics? Oh darn, you can not imagine how much I care about that...

[QUOTE=3ball]I've ordered the 1993-1994 Philly Sixers Media Guide.

It is supposed to show the number of dunks each NBA player got for the previous 6 years (1988-1993 seasons) - this type of information is not available with a Google search.

I already have media guides showing 3 years of data, and it shows Jordan dunking about 140 times per year and as much as 153 times... I looked up dunk stats for Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Paul George, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter - all of these guys had literally less than half as many dunks each year...

It's interesting because even though some of Kobe's highlights are comparable to Jordan's standard, I always thought Jordan was far more athletic, and this pretty much proves it - Kobe was indeed relying on that jumpshot as much as it [I]looked[/I] like he was at times (in comparison with Jordan, who obviously was attacking much more)... With McGrady and Paul George - even though some of their highlights compare to Jordan's standard, the consistency wasn't there and I always thought they were more frail than Jordan and lacked the strength and power that Jordan went up with.

The only wing players from this era that have as many dunks as Jordan is Durant and Lebron, who routinely have over 100 dunks, just like Jordan... Neither of them have had a 153 dunk year.. [I]and neither of them played when the NBA allowed defenders to occupy the paint[/I], which was before the defensive 3 seconds rule came into effect.. well, actually Lebron played his rookie year before the rule changes - he shot 48% TS.

Durant and Lebron also don't play with the type of shot-blocking bigs Jordan faced.. and the average NBA height is shorter today than it was back then... here are height stats for the NBA... [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing_experience[/url]

When I get the dunk data for the full 6 years (1988-1993), i'll make a thread and post it with a screen shot.[/QUOTE]
Pretty cool, looking forward to it.

Do you have the data for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96? Every year after (starting with 96-97) we have play-by-play data for (stats.nba.com).

It's really not.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Pretty cool, looking forward to it.

Do you have the data for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96? Every year after (starting with 96-97) we have play-by-play data for (stats.nba.com).[/QUOTE]
will post late tonight or tomorrow..

the media guides each show total dunks for each player for the particular year that the media guide covers... I have media guides for 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1993.

However, the Sixers 93' media guide shows the total dunks for each player for the previous 6 seasons (so 88-93) - the total number of dunks for the 6-year period... i can tell you right now, Jordan was 3rd in dunks during this period with 746...

I don't have time right now, but I will take pictures of the pages and post them in a thread tonight or tomorrow.

Very questionable. Both Kareem and Russell have cases for GOAT.

- Russell has more rings and theoritically more FMVPs
- Kareem has more MVPs, more total points, and the GOAT college career if that means anything to anyone in these discussions.

I believe when you put everything together, Jordan may have the strongest case, but AGAIN, it is still debatable.

[QUOTE=3ball]will post late tonight or tomorrow..

the media guides each show total dunks for each player for the particular year that the media guide covers... I have media guides for 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1993.

However, the Sixers 93' media guide shows the total dunks for each player for the previous 6 seasons (so 88-93) - the total number of dunks for the 6-year period... i can tell you right now, Jordan was 3rd in dunks during this period with 746...

I don't have time right now, but I will take pictures of the pages and post them in a thread tonight or tomorrow.[/QUOTE]
I have the 90-91 media guide, didn't know it contained dunks. Pretty cool.

The top 10 (game high in parentheses):
D. Robinson 197 (9)
Thorpe 162 (6)
Barkley 161 (6)
Jordan 153 (6)
M. West 132 (5)
Olajuwon 130 (5)
D. Wilkins 128 (5)
Drexler 125 (5)
Ewing 119 (6)
Pippen 119 (5)

On the bottom of the page it says there were 282 dunkers for 7011 over 89-90, 264 for 6475 in 88-89, 264 for 5757 in 87-88, so it seems that's indeed the first season in which Pollack recorded them.

Do you know if 94-95, 95-96, 96-97 contain them as well? All three are cheap:

[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1994-1995-Philadelphia-76ers-Sixers-NBA-Media-Guide-Book-NEW-Mint-/291211815506?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item43cd93aa52[/url]
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-96-PHILADELPHIA-SIXERS-MEDIA-GUIDE-/231158221871?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item35d21a8c2f[/url]
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-97-PHILADELPHIA-SIXERS-MEDIA-GUIDE-IVERSON-ROOKIE-YEAR-/231158222875?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item35d21a901b[/url]

so maybe I'll pick them up if they have the dunk data.

MJ, a guard outperforming GIANTS. GOAT gonna GOAT. Missed 2 years of his prime to play baseball in honor of his deceased father. Comes back, mid 30s, leads Bulls to best record ever and three peat. His heart alone makes him better than everyone else. Magic, LeBron? *******. Kobe? Derivative. Russell? Weak offensively. Wilt? A loser. Kareem? Sidekick for rings.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]MJ, a guard outperforming GIANTS. GOAT gonna GOAT. Missed 2 years of his prime to play baseball in honor of his deceased father. Comes back, mid 30s, leads Bulls to best record ever and three peat. His heart alone makes him better than everyone else. Magic, LeBron? *******. Kobe? Derivative. Russell? Weak offensively. Wilt? A loser. Kareem? Sidekick for rings.[/QUOTE]

...

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Player zealots, specifically the Jordan, Kobe and LeBron stans.

Neither of these clowns are actual fans of ANY team (there are quite a few MJ stans masquerading as "Bulls fans" on the internet, ISH included), making them, equally, by FAR the worst.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Don't be soft. Name them.

MJ / Bulls fans and just purely MJ fans are pretty clearly divided. Especially on ISH. None of them are trolls either. I don't see them shitting on Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Shaq, etc.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll:

Cracked up hard

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]...





:roll: :roll:

Cracked up hard[/QUOTE]
DaMighTy was too big a puss to mention my name though. Especially when asked.

You of all people should keep your mouth shut, considering your a LeBron stan. Hopping from one team to the next like a groupie slut. Now you're a Cavs fan?

My statements are in essence why MJ clearly has the best case as GOAT basketball player. I streamlined it. Don't be salty because it's the widely held belief.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]DaMighTy was too big a puss to mention my name though. Especially when asked.

You of all people should keep your mouth shut, considering your a LeBron stan. Hopping from one team to the next like a groupie slut. Now you're a Cavs fan?

My statements are in essence why MJ clearly has the best case as GOAT basketball player. I streamlined it. Don't be salty because it's the widely held belief.[/QUOTE]

Uh oh, meltdown alert. LOL