Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.[/QUOTE]

Oh I know he's right. I've seen everything you state above, players running away, or trying to be cute taking charges. If you have elite athleticism/slashing ability, there's little impeding you from scoring in the paint nowadays once you get there. MJ, one of the GOAT slashers and creative finishers around the rim of all-time, would have a field day today. I mean, this is a guy who attacked the rim relentlessly in his prime, often with 2-3 guys lunging at him to protect the rim. Imagine him flying down the lane today to see todays 'shotblockers' actually moving out of the way.

[QUOTE=fpliii]
This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.
[/QUOTE]
The increased athleticism over time argument holds no water because it doesn't explain such a large discrepancy (1 dunk every 29 shots compared to 1 dunk every 21 shots).. Nor is it necessarily true - Hibbert is not an upgrade over Shaq.... Paul George not an upgrade over Pippen... It also doesn't compensate for how players are shorter now than they were in previous eras.

The prevalence argument is one of the weaker options that we have to explain how the difficulty of dunking has changed over the years.... Dr. J, David Thompson, Spud Webb, Darryl Griffith (Dr. Dunk), Dominique, and Daryl Dawkins all popularized the dunk long before MJ did.

Also, the brief increase in the FGA/Dunk stat (difficulty of dunking) in 2000 back to its 1991 levels also refutes the prevalence idea... It's also noteworthy that the FGA/Dunk stat took a sharp and [I]permanent[/I] decline in 1992 - so this must have been the year when the dunk became more prevalent all of a sudden, which seems a little random..

The data is pretty conclusive regarding the difficulty of dunking imo.. I don't know any other way to look at the FGA/Dunk stat.

[I]Like, why did dunking seem to become permanently easier in 1992?...
[/I]
The FGA/Dunk stat (difficulty of dunking) dropped off significantly in 1992, and never really came back, other than a brief jump in 2000, when the difficulty of dunking spiked up for one year back to levels it was at in the late 80's/early 90's.

[I]And why did it spike up that one year in 2000 like it was 1991 all over again?
[/I]
I think these are good questions to ask... I looked into 1992 and couldn't find any rule changes to explain the sharp increase in the FGA/Dunk stat... But one theory I came up with for why dunking got easier in 1992 is that the Bulls had won in 1991 by using superior spacing via the triangle.. One thing i learned from the triangle is that when the ball is fed to the post, the passer and anyone else on that side cuts through and lets the post guy do his thing.... Maybe everyone else learned this too (along with other things about the triangle) and this became commonplace throughout the league in 1992, which gave every team better spacing from that point forward?

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall] Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a5618610963252b80d69182b.gif[/IMG]

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s[/URL]

No way.[/QUOTE]

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=fpliii]I agree that MJ has dunked on a ton of guys, and as I said above, I think he was the superior dunker in general.

I was just saying that if we want to definitively prove one way or another anything about the degree of difficulty in dunking, we need to watch a ton of each of their dunks from the years we're comparing (3ball suggested 88 and 09), and break down the coverage, and compare how each guy got to the hoop.[/QUOTE]
Also, what will looking at a bunch of film do?... We already know that Lebron's dunks are less contested.

Don't we have enough film to determine that much?.. All of Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season are posted in the OP..

Here are Lebron's dunks from the 2013 season... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg[/url]...

What am i missing here?... they are all wide open again!!.. :coleman:

[QUOTE]
I like how you conveniently ignored my comment about Jordan traveling. He moves BOTH feet before his dribble touches the ground on all of them.

Kobe can do those dunks all day:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sizsclc7sK8[/url] except he adds more flavor like a windmill.

Kobe is a better dunker: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U[/url][/QUOTE]

:pimp:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Waiting Loki:coleman:

another wide open dunk due to the spacing...

why has this thread been soiled and littered with GIFs of open, uncontested dunks?

:biggums:

[QUOTE=3ball]Also, what will looking at a bunch of film do?... We already know that Lebron's dunks are less contested.

Don't we have enough film to determine that much?.. All of Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season are posted in the OP..

Here are Lebron's dunks from the 2013 season... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg[/url]...

What am i missing here?... they are all wide open again!!.. :coleman:[/QUOTE]
Just to be sure about things. There are different components of coverage, right?

1) What a guy's facing before he gets the ball.
2) How a guy s played before he begins to drive.
3) Degree of resistance met en route to the hole.
4) How he meets the defender at the rim.

Since you'd suggested 88 and 09 earlier in the thread, watching footage from those seasons of MJ and LeBron dunking respectively could help us answer those questions.

You said you selected those years since they were at the same age, and since you found some LeBron dunks for 13 and 14, we should look at MJ at the corresponding ages, 92 and 93 to remain consistent.

[QUOTE=3ball]another wide open dunk due to the spacing...

why has this thread been soiled and littered with GIFs of open, uncontested dunks?

:biggums:[/QUOTE]

It was contested...look at the two guys right in front of him. he just gets up too fast. Also checkout the youtube link to the James Johnson dunk. Stop your willful blindness.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:lol

You just responded to a gif of Jordan driving against a hand checking defender and jamming over a waiting 6'11" Center who actually challenged his dunk attempt with a vid of Bron bee-lining untouched to the basket with no help waiting for him? And the gif you posted shows LeBron, once again, bee-lining to the basket from the 3 point line and dunking with absolutely no resistance or challenge from the D. Dude literally saw no defense there, guys were just standing there looking at him.

Can you seriously not see the differences? :confusedshrug:

Again though 3ball - as I've said, I didn't start watching until 92-93. While I've watched a lot of MJ after the fact from earlier seasons, I can't comment definitively. As such, it's imperative for me to watch as much footage as possible before forming an opinion with which I'm comfortable. :D

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]:lol

You just responded to a gif of Jordan driving against a hand checking defender and jamming over a waiting 6'11" Center who actually challenged his dunk attempt with a vid of Bron bee-lining untouched to the basket with no help waiting for him? And the gif you posted shows LeBron, once again, bee-lining to the basket from the 3 point line and dunking with absolutely no resistance or challenge from the D. Dude literally saw no defense there, guys were just standing there looking at him.

Can you seriously not see the differences? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

No, fool. I was using the gif to respond to his claim that LeBron can't dunk off a hop step.

Click on the youtube link for a reply to the Jordan Heat dunk....

[QUOTE=eliteballer]No, fool. I was using the gif to respond to his claim that LeBron can't dunk off a hop step.

Click on the youtube link for a reply to the Jordan Heat dunk....[/QUOTE]

I did click on the link. It's LeBron going to the basket untouched because the defense is handicapped and can't physically impede his progress and absolutely no help defense whatsoever which = easy dunk. Again, can you not see how that's different from Jordan's defender putting hands on him and a 6'11" Center camped out in the paint waiting to challenge his dunk attempt? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I did click on the link. It's LeBron going to the basket untouched because the defense is handicapped and can't physically impede his progress and absolutely no help defense whatsoever which = easy dunk. Again, can you not see how that's different from Jordan's defender putting hands on him and a 6'11" Center camped out in the paint waiting to challenge his dunk attempt? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Just to be sure about things. There are different components of coverage, right?

1) What a guy's facing before he gets the ball.
2) How a guy s played before he begins to drive.
3) Degree of resistance met en route to the hole.
4) How he meets the defender at the rim.

Since you'd suggested 88 and 09 earlier in the thread, watching footage from those seasons of MJ and LeBron dunking respectively could help us answer those questions.

You said you selected those years since they were at the same age, and since you found some LeBron dunks for 13 and 14, we should look at MJ at the corresponding ages, 92 and 93 to remain consistent.[/QUOTE]
What difference does 1-4 make above in evaluating the FGA/Dunk stat?

The FGA/Dunk stat shows what the league is doing as a whole - this is how many advanced stats are used - they compare what the player does to what the league does as a whole.

So when comparing the defensive rating of teams in different eras, the league-wide average defensive rating is relevant to see how each team performed compared to what the rest of the league was doing... the FGA/Dunk stat accomplishes this same objective when compared to raw dunk stats.

Also, are you saying that the coverage Lebron faces - with the lower level of physicality that is allowed and the spacing - is tougher than what Jordan faced?

So why are all of Lebron's dunks wide open then?

Did you look at the tape for the 2013 and the 2014 season?... Lebron's dunks REALLY ARE open and uncontested... I'm not making that up... the way you are talking, it's like you aren't seeing the same wide open dunks and open space that i do.

Do you really want to compare the double teams, triple teams, lack of spacing and high level of physicality Jordan faced versus the Pistons, Knicks, and Seattle, to what Lebron faces?... One guy has room to operate, the other guy doesn't.. This isn't an issue that Lebron is going to come out on ahead on.