MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq was considerably more unstoppable and efficient from the field

[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="3"][B]Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')
[/B][/SIZE]

[I]Rebounds/Assists cancel out.. So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%:[/I]


[B]REGULAR SEASON[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


[B]PLAYOFFS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


[B]FINALS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] #5, #3, #9 defenses.. [COLOR="Green"]beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley[/COLOR]
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. [COLOR="Red"]beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd[/COLOR]


[I]MJ was more dominant and more efficient - irrefutable stats.[/I]

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Except that is not even true.
Maybe 80's Jordan VS Detroit in certain games or stretches was doubled at a level comparable to what Shaq received on average but thats about it.

[/QUOTE]
I re-watched every single game from the 2000 Finals - this was Shaq's most dominant series ever and the most he was doubled was 3 times in a row.

Even though we've been arguing about this for a week now, you can't show me a single stretch where Shaq was doubled 10 times in a row - this should take 10 minutes if he was doubled more than 80's MJ - because that's all the time it would take me to find more instances of MJ, and I've already shown 3 such games for MJ itt.. So the argument stands, just based on the fact that I can easily reproduce games where MJ was doubled 10 times in a row, and you can't produce any..

And it's intuitive anyway - Shaq played with a bevy of All-NBA guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade, then Lebron) and a bevy of 3-point shooters, [COLOR="Navy"][I]so it would be dumb[/I][/COLOR] for the other team to EVER double Shaq 10 times in a row... Also, it's easier to just foul Shaq, which occurred often...

Otoh, it was much easier to double MJ, because the 80's Bulls didn't even have any all-stars, let alone all-nba players like Shaq had, and they didn't have any 3-point shooting like Shaq's teams either... And of course you couldn't just foul Mike like you can Shaq - for all these very intuitive reasons, 80's MJ was doubled far more than Shaq ever was on his stacked, 3-point shooting teams.

Btw, MJ was more dominant that Shaq - this is easily the most irrefutable fact - just look at the previous post.. :rolleyes:
.

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

That is why Shaq was doubled more often then MJ.
He was far more unstoppable and efficient from the field.
Take away FT's and MJ isn't close to Shaq as a scorer.

[QUOTE=3ball]
Btw, MJ was more dominant that Shaq - this is easily the most irrefutable fact - just look at the previous post.. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

No he wasn't and your previous post doesn't prove shit.
MJ may have been a slightly better scorer Peak for Peak but offensively they are on the same level while defensively Shaq has a huge edge and is also a monster on the boards.

Peak Shaq's overall impact > Peak Jordan's
Not a big gap but a clear one imo.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

[/quote]
[B]Even though it's the dumbest, most beta thing in the world to remove FT shooting just so you can have a chance in the argument, I'll do it anyway, because MJ still wins.. If you insist on being a dumbass, MJ still wins using your twisted logic:[/B]


[U]Points per 100 Possessions in Playoffs [COLOR="red"]MINUS FREE THROWS MADE[/COLOR]:
[/U]

[I]MICHAEL JORDAN[/I]: 43.3 pts - 10.6 ft's = 32.7 pts

[I]SHAQ AS LAKER[/I]: 36.3 pts - 7.7 ft's = 28.6 pts


That feeling you have right now - that's you being ethered... Enjoy.. Happens to the best of us

Of course, why would we remove FT shooting anyway?... gtfo, ridiculous... MJ is was the better scorer and was more dominant - higher ts, higher points-per-possession, higher win shares, and of course, higher ppg..
.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

That is why Shaq was doubled more often then MJ.
He was far more unstoppable and efficient from the field.
Take away FT's and MJ isn't close to Shaq as a scorer.

[/quote]

TS% is a more accurate representation of scoring efficiency when compared to FG%. MJ was the more efficient and dangerous scorer, that is why he was double teamed more often than Shaq.

[quote]
No he wasn't and your previous post doesn't prove shit.
MJ may have been a slightly better scorer Peak for Peak but offensively they are on the same level while defensively Shaq has a huge edge and is also a monster on the boards.

Peak Shaq's overall impact > Peak Jordan's
Not a big gap but a clear one imo.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq is not better than Peak Jordan. Peak Shaq cannot give you elite offense and properly guard the pick and roll for the entire game. He is not a true two way player. Shaq couldn't step into a creater role for your offense like Michael Jordan could. Shaq's impact diminishes as the game comes to an end due to being a liability from free throw shooting. Jordan's impact increases. When the game is down to the last play, who are you inbounding the ball too, Jordan, or Shaq?

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Even though it's the dumbest, most beta thing in the world to remove FT shooting just so you can have a chance in the argument, I'll do it anyway, because MJ still wins.
[/QUOTE]

First of all MJ does not win, LOL.
Are you ****ing kidding me?

Second of all removing FT shooting does make sense in the context of our discussion.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]If you are an opposing defender who is trying to stop a guy without fouling it doesn't matter how good his FT shooting ability is it only matters how good his halfcourt offensive game is.[/COLOR]

[B]Peak VS Peak (scoring from the field)[/B]
--------
[B]Shaq =[/B] 11.7 FG's made on 21.3 FG Attempts
[B]MJ =[/B] 12.1 FG's made on 23.7 FG Attempts

[B]Jordan =[/B] .4 more FG's made on 2.4 extra attempts.

Enjoy dat ether boy.

:kobe:

[QUOTE=warriorfan]TS% is a more accurate representation of scoring efficiency when compared to FG%.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed but in the context of our discussion FG% was relevant and TS% was not.

[QUOTE]MJ was the more efficient and dangerous scorer. [/QUOTE]

But he wasn't more efficient even going by TS% and I don't think he was more dangerous.
Shaq was a more unstoppable scorer from the field which made him more consistent and more portable VS various defenses.

[QUOTE]that is why he was double teamed more often than Shaq.
[/QUOTE]
Except in reality he wasn't.


[QUOTE]Peak Shaq is not better than Peak Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Yes he is.

[QUOTE]Peak Shaq cannot give you elite offense and properly guard the pick and roll for the entire game.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq was a dominant interior defender and a DPOY level defensive anchor at the C position.
His defensive impact was far greater then Jordan's ever was.
His PnR defense was also fine at his Peak.

[QUOTE]He is not a true two way player.[/QUOTE]

Retard alert.
Shaq was an elite defensive anchor throughout most of his Prime.

[QUOTE]Shaq couldn't step into a creater role for your offense like Michael Jordan could. [/QUOTE]

Of course he could.
Look at the 2000 Finals where he scored nearly 40ppg and carried a team that had barely any creators outside of an injured and useless Kobe.
Look at many other series. He could create efficient offense better then anyone.

[QUOTE]Shaq's impact diminishes as the game comes to an end due to being a liability from free throw shooting.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't because his efficiency from the field balances it out.
Shaq led the 00-02 Laker's in 4th quarter pts scored.
Shaq has the two highest 4th quarter PPG averages in a Finals series.

[QUOTE]When the game is down to the last play, who are you inbounding the ball too, Jordan, or Shaq?[/QUOTE]

For a last second play?
Jordan.

For an entire 4th quarter?
Could go either way.

[SIZE="2"]pick and roll defense[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]pick and roll defense[/SIZE]

[SIZE="7"]pick and roll defense[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]pick n roll hurrr[/QUOTE]

What about it?
Shaq was never great at defending deep PnR plays but during his youth and Peak years he was more then capable of defending them and in the playoffs he ramped up his effort level and always did a passable job of it.

Shaq was one of the most dominant interior defenders & rim-protectors of his generation.
Him being fairly average at one minor facet of defense (deep PnR screens) didn't prevent him from being an elite defensive anchor especially at his Peak where he anchored the #1 defense in the league despite Kobe missing a ton of games and him having no other notable defenders on his team.

Peak Wilt (like Shaq) was also fairly average at perimeter defense and yet his defensive impact was also far greater then Jordan's ever was.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

But he wasn't more efficient even going by TS% and I don't think he was more dangerous.

[/quote]
What the **** are you talking about??... MJ had higher TS and ORtg in the playoffs.. Also, without FT's, MJ still scored a lot more:


[U]Points per 100 Possessions in Playoffs [COLOR="DarkRed"]MINUS FREE THROWS MADE[/COLOR]:
[/U]

[I]MICHAEL JORDAN[/I]: 43.3 pts - 10.6 ft's = 32.7 pts

[I]SHAQ AS LAKER[/I]: 36.3 pts - 7.7 ft's = 28.6 pts


[I]But again, why are we handicapping it for Shaq by excluding FT's?... Only because Shaq is clearly worse and doesn't have a chance comparing to MJ otherwise.[/I]

[QUOTE=3ball]
[I]But again, why are we handicapping it for Shaq by excluding FT's?... Only because Shaq is clearly worse and doesn't have a chance comparing to MJ otherwise.[/I][/QUOTE]

[B]Shaq's FG% >>>>>>> Jordan's[/B]

You are literally insane if you think he wasn't a better scorer from the field.
I am done discussing that particular topic with you.

Regarding their scoring Peak VS Peak.
Jordan was arguably better but the gap is small.

[B]Shaq :[/B] 30ppg on .562%TS
[B]MJ :[/B] 33.6ppg on .572%TS

Let us not act like their is some gigantic gap between those stats above.
Its pretty small and honestly Shaq faced much better defenses and much better h2h defenders.
Plus he was more consistent and more portable VS varied defenses.

I think they are about equal as offensive anchors or a small edge for Jordan.
But defensively it is not even close.
Peak Shaq was a DPOY level C.
Jordan couldn't dream of matching his impact on that end.
Then we have the 13-15 boards he grabbed.

Yeah in terms of overall impact Peak Shaq > Peak Jordan

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]If you are an opposing defender who is trying to stop a guy without fouling it doesn't matter how good his FT shooting ability is it only matters how good his halfcourt offensive game is.[/COLOR]

[/QUOTE]
MJ's scoring stats are GOAT - they're far better than Shaq's, and he has FAR more big games than Shaq... MJ simply scored way more than Shaq in the halfcourt, or ANY court - you've just lost your mind by thinking otherwise.

(i.e. Jordan has thirty-eight 40-point playoff games to Shaq's 10 or whatever it is... don't make me start busting out lists of most 30 point, 40 point and 50 point playoff games - Jordan DOMINATES that list... You'll look really dumb.

you already look like an idiot saying anyone is a better scorer than MJ - the stats couldn't be clearer on this - MJ was the far more dominant scorer, which is why he required more double-teams).

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]
he anchored the #1 defense in the league despite Kobe missing a ton of games and him having no other notable defenders on his team.
[/QUOTE]

2000 Lakers were stacked with great defenders. Veteran AC Green was picking up pick and roll responsibilities for Shaq that year. Next year, AC Green goes to Miami where they secure the #2 defense in the league, [i]meanwhile the Lakers defense dropped to [b]#21[/b] in Green's absence with no one to cover the pick and roll.[/i]

[QUOTE=3ball]MJ simply scored way more than Shaq in the halfcourt, or ANY court - you've just lost your mind by thinking otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Hmm.... and yet....

[B]00-02 Shaq =[/B] 11.7 FG's made on 21.3 FG Attempts
[B]91-93 Mike =[/B] 12.1 FG's made on 23.7 FG Attempts

Looks like they scored about the same amount in the halfcourt except that Shaq needed 2.4 less attempts per game...

So much for Jordan scoring "way more" in the halfcourt.

Shaq was a far more efficient, consistent and unstoppable scorer from the field.
Jordan is clearly his inferior in that respect and any sane basketball fan would agree.

Now Jordan is a much better FT shooter and overall as you said he was probably the better scorer of the two.
Happy now?

:facepalm