cp3 vs kidd vs payton

[QUOTE=aj1987]Why do you keep bringing up Sheed? I probably know more about those Pistons teams than you. [B]Again, [B][I]IF[/I][/B] Kobe puts his ego aside and plays like Kobe, they win in '04.[/B] I know you hate Kobe and it's hard to accept the alternative, but that's what it is.

The Heat were up 3-2 against the Pistons and Wade was absolutely going in raw before his injury. Anyone who was actually watching basketball in '05 would bet their houses on the Heat, if Wade was healthy. Lets not pretend that Wade's injury wasn't the reason as to why the Pistons ended up in the Finals. IIRC, Wade was averaging close to 30/5/7 in the games he wasn't injured.

For the whateverth time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but they weren't an ATG team.[/QUOTE]

You saying that over and over again doesn't make it true.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Why do you keep bringing up Sheed? I probably know more about those Pistons teams than you. Again, [B][I]IF[/I][/B] Kobe puts his ego aside and plays like Kobe, they win in '04. I know you hate Kobe and it's hard to accept the alternative, but that's what it is.

The Heat were up 3-2 against the Pistons and Wade was absolutely going in raw before his injury. Anyone who was actually watching basketball in '05 would bet their houses on the Heat, if Wade was healthy. Lets not pretend that Wade's injury wasn't the reason as to why the Pistons ended up in the Finals. IIRC, Wade was averaging close to 30/5/7 in the games he wasn't injured.

For the whateverth time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but they weren't an ATG team.[/QUOTE]

You repeating your opinion over and over again as fact...doesn't make it one. Sorry.

You obviously aren't reading my posts...I said I thought the Heat in 05 would have won, but that doesn't make it a fact...and certainly doesn't mean the Pistons weren't a great team.

So...no...sorry, Kobe playing better does not turn a 5 game series loss into a win for sure. Kobe was great in game 2 and the Lakers still needed OT to win...you aren't realizing the capabilities of that team.

Plays like Kobe? How so? I think the 04 Pistons were probably tougher defensively for Kobe than the 08 Celtics...but even if Kobe played as good in 04 as he did in the 08 finals...it wouldn't have been good enough. 26/5/5 on 51% TS isn't turning that series into a win for the Lakers. They probably get it to 6 games, but they aren't winning.

Also, just looking at Kobe's offense is too narrow a view. A huge issue with that series was how well the Pistons were scoring. They finished the series with a 106.7 offensive rating. This was much better than their regular season rating...and far better than their rating the two previous rounds in which they didn't even sniff breaking 100.

So yea...if Kobe averages 30/5/5 on 58% TS and he plays far better defense...then sure...Lakers probably win....great argument.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You repeating your opinion over and over again as fact...doesn't make it one. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
[B][U]IF[/U][/B]

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So yea...if Kobe averages 30/5/5 on 58% TS and he plays far better defense...then sure...Lakers probably win....great argument.[/quote]
Again, you hate Kobe with a passion, so you can't be unbiased in this discussion. Kobe is an ATG. A top ~9 GOAT. Dude wanted to be the man and he lost the series for the team. Took 29 shots more than Shaq and scored 20 fewer points. He basically averaged the same number of assists as TOV's.

:roll: @ bringing up the Pistons' offense. They averaged lowers numbers over the board. FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc. Also, they managed to score 100 ONCE in the series. They were a subpar offensive team. They were 18th and 17th offensively in '04 and '05.

For the final time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but were not even close to being an ATG team.

[QUOTE=aj1987][B][U]IF[/U][/B]

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario. [/QUOTE]

Thats, not what he means.. he means the outcome of the hypothetical, which was already doubted by Smoke.

[QUOTE=aj1987][B][U]IF[/U][/B]

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario.


Again, you hate Kobe with a passion, so you can't be unbiased in this discussion. Kobe is an ATG. A top ~9 GOAT. Dude wanted to be the man and he lost the series for the team. Took 29 shots more than Shaq and scored 20 fewer points. He basically averaged the same number of assists as TOV's.

:roll: @ bringing up the Pistons' offense. They averaged lowers numbers over the board. FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc. Also, they managed to score 100 ONCE in the series. They were a subpar offensive team. They were 18th and 17th offensively in '04 and '05.

For the final time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but were not even close to being an ATG team.[/QUOTE]

You aren't following this man.

Just leave it at that...

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Thats, not what he means.. he means the outcome of the hypothetical, which was already doubted by Smoke.[/QUOTE]
That's my opinion. I don't understand why he thinks it's a 'fact'. I keep repeating it because it's my OPINION. That's what hypotheticals are, right?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You aren't following this man.

Just leave it at that...[/QUOTE]
Meh. You just hate Kobe too much to actually have a reasonable argument.

You rep Wade although you're a Dirk stan. :cheers:

The Lakers werent winning that series plain and simple. Kobe shot as much as he had to, because it was only him and shaq scoring and Shaq wasnt in his prime anymore anyway. The pistons basically forced Kobe into an assload of mediocre shots by necessity.

They werent even the best team in the west. A wolves vs pistons series with everyone healthy wouldve been much more interesting

[QUOTE=aj1987]That's my opinion. I don't understand why he thinks it's a 'fact'. I keep repeating it because it's my OPINION. That's what hypotheticals are, right?


Meh. You just hate Kobe too much to actually have a reasonable argument.

You rep Wade although you're a Dirk stan. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

It has nothing to do with Kobe.

You don't understand what a hypothetical actually is...and you don't understand offensive rating.

I'm refuting your opinion...you get that...right?

Again...just take the L and leave please.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It has nothing to do with Kobe.

You don't understand what a hypothetical actually is...and you don't understand offensive rating.

I'm refuting your opinion...you get that...right?

Again...just take the L and leave please.[/QUOTE]
Ugh! Offensive rating? Why leave out FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc..? They weren't an ATG team and that's a FACT. Defensively? Sure, but not as a whole. Stop living in denial.

I think YOU don't actually know what a hypothetical is. I'll repeat myself.

[B]Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. IF Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. [U]It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario[/U]. [/B]

[QUOTE=aj1987]Ugh! Offensive rating? Why leave out FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc..? They weren't an ATG team and that's a FACT. Defensively? Sure, but not as a whole. Stop living in denial.

I think YOU don't actually know what a hypothetical is. I'll repeat myself.

[B]Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. IF Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. [U]It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario[/U]. [/B][/QUOTE]

You have to defend your statements. Just because something is a hypothetical does not mean you can just say anything without defending it.

Tell me why Kobe would have played better in the 04 finals than he did in the 08 finals.

Explain to me how Kobe is doing that...and then explain why that would be good enough to win when the Pistons were scoring well against the Lakers also.

Lastly, offensive rating has everything built into it. It's scoring per 100 possessions...all the things you list above are inherently factored into it.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You have to defend your statements. Just because something is a hypothetical does not mean you can just say anything without defending it.

Tell me why Kobe would have played better in the 04 finals than he did in the 08 finals.

Explain to me how Kobe is doing that...and then explain why that would be good enough to win when the Pistons were scoring well against the Lakers also.

Lastly, offensive rating has everything built into it. It's scoring per 100 possessions...all the things you list above are inherently factored into it.[/QUOTE]
Whatever helps you sleep better at night, bro. :cheers:

Your Kobe hate is actually beyond belief.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Whatever helps you sleep better at night, bro. :cheers:

Your Kobe hate is actually beyond belief.[/QUOTE]

Do you want to be taken seriously or not?

These aren't real answers.

I'm asking you to defend position and all you do is attack me.

My hate for Kobe? I have him as one of the 10 or 11 or so best players ever. Has nothing to do with this at all though.

I'll ask again...why would Kobe play better than he did in the 08 finals? And even if he did...why would that be good enough?

Try a real response this time please....or just leave like you should have.

Payton getting seriously overrated. He's on a tier below CP3 and Kidd. Great defender and good scorer but not near the floor general that CP3 and Kidd are.

To me CP3 is the best. Then Kidd but it's close.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]]
I'll ask again...why would Kobe play better than he did in the 08 finals? And even if he did...why would that be good enough?

Try a real response this time please....or just leave like you should have.[/QUOTE]
I've said it like a dozen times. Kobe was trying to be the man and he let his ego get in the way. If you actually saw the series, you'd know it as well. Dude was basically chucking the ball. Trying to score whenever he got it. There's no way ANY team could hold him to those numbers over a span of 5 games.

[QUOTE=aj1987]I've said it like a dozen times. Kobe was trying to be the man and he let his ego get in the way. If you actually saw the series, you'd know it as well. Dude was basically chucking the ball. Trying to score whenever he got it. There's no way ANY team could hold him to those numbers over a span of 5 games.[/QUOTE]

Dude...you aren't listening. We know Kobe played poorly, I'm asking you why you think even if he played as well as he did in the 08 finals...that would be good enough?

I'm not disputing Kobe played poorly, I'm saying he could have played quite better and it still not have been good enough.

Once again...the Pistons were scoring against the Lakers well in that series and they have an all time great defense....you can't just "grant" Kobe playing better than he did against the 08 Celtics, for example.

And my argument is that even if Kobe played as good as he did in 08...which I question would even be possible...that the Lakers still lose.

You follow?

And you've given no arguments at all...you just keep saying Kobe was bad on repeat.