Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
This isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. LeBron was 37 this season. MJ was 38 turning 39 in 2001-02, and he was three years removed from the league.
Hamilton was a worse defender than Westbrook in 2001-02. And LeBron had AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, a better core than anything MJ had in 2001-02. MJ's cast was horrid. Somehow they were 14th in DRTG before his injury, (106 overall for the season with MJ), 21st in the regular season. The Lakers had a 114 DRTG with LeBron (they were 21st this season at 113 DRTG overall).
Not to mention, Jordan had his team at a 26-20 record, many of those games without Rip, prior to his injury. They were in playoff contention. Also the 2001-02 season was the height of the defensive era. Teams averaged just 95.5 PPG compared to what, 110.6 now?
Jordan put up 25/6/5/2 but fell off a cliff after the injury. If he's not retiring and continued to go and you give him any mix of AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, then I think he'd probably have as good, if not a better record than LeBron, even at an older age.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646572]This isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. LeBron was 37 this season. MJ was 38 turning 39 in 2001-02, and he was three years removed from the league.
Hamilton was a worse defender than Westbrook in 2001-02. And LeBron had AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, a better core than anything MJ had in 2001-02. MJ's cast was horrid. Somehow they were 14th in DRTG before his injury, (106 overall for the season with MJ), 21st in the regular season. The Lakers had a 114 DRTG with LeBron (they were 21st this season at 113 DRTG overall).
Not to mention, Jordan had his team at a 26-20 record, many of those games without Rip, prior to his injury. They were in playoff contention. Also the 2001-02 season was the height of the defensive era. Teams averaged just 95.5 PPG compared to what, 110.6 now?
Jordan put up 25/6/5/2 but fell off a cliff after the injury. If he's not retiring and continued to go and you give him any mix of AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, then I think he'd probably have as good, if not a better record than LeBron, even at an older age.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so 09 LeBron was much better than any version of MJ in the 80s, yes? Lol at mentioning Westbrook as if he wasn't godawful. Howard? Melo? :roll: Might as well claim MJ had George Gervin at one point by this ridiculous logic.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
2022 Melo had already won a scoring title, 2022 Westbrook already had won a league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles. Also Dwight Howard who beat Lebron without HCA is a 3x DPOY. That's not including Anthony Davis who led in every stat in 2020.
[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=RRR3;14646573]Ok, so 09 LeBron was much better than any version of MJ in the 80s, yes? Lol at mentioning Westbrook as if he wasn't godawful. Howard? Melo? :roll:[/QUOTE]
Any? No, I don't think so.
Westbrook w/Lebron: 17/7/7/1 on 43%
Westbrook w/o LeBron: 22/8/8/1 on 47%
You're saying Westbrook and Melo are awful, but did you take a look at the cast of Washington that year? Take your pick:
AD, Westbrook, Monk, Melo, Howard
or
White, Whitney, Hamilton, Jones, Laettner
It's not even close.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646577][B]Any? No, I don't think so.
[/B]
Westbrook w/Lebron: 17/7/7/1 on 43%
Westbrook w/o LeBron: 22/8/8/1 on 47%
You're saying Westbrook and Melo are awful, but did you take a look at the cast of Washington that year? Take your pick:
AD, Westbrook, Monk, Melo, Howard
or
White, Whitney, Hamilton, Jones, Laettner
It's not even close.[/QUOTE]
So you're being inconsistent. LeBron won 66 games with role players in 2009. MJ's most wins in the 80s before Pippen became an all-star was 50. By your own logic LeBron was clearly better. Or else you'd have to admit there's more to that goes into team record than simply the best player and their supporting cast on paper. Which would mean you'd also have to admit 22 LeBron was better than Wizards MJ. Can't have it both ways.
Why are you listing Westbrook's raw stats as if they mean anything? His efficiency and impact stats were atrocious. Again why are you listing Melo and Howard? This is like saying MJ had George Gervin and Robert Parish.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646569]No, by your logic LeBron was clearly superior. :lol
And next time adjust for league average TS% if you want to compare that stat across eras without looking clueless.
You're welcome[/QUOTE]
Nope, you're just incapable of understanding the argument. I've already stated Lebron was better individually in 2022 than MJ was in 2002. Yet even with that being the case, MJ somehow went 30-30 compared to Lebron going 26-31 with an even worse supporting cast. Every excuse you can give Lebron, I can give for Jordan. Lebron wasn't as conducive to his teams winning games. Pretty hilarious actually. :roll:
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646581]Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.[/QUOTE]
2022 Melo had already won a scoring title, 2022 Westbrook already had won a league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles. Also Dwight Howard who beat Lebron without HCA is a 3x DPOY. That's not including Anthony Davis who led in every stat in 2020.
[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=RRR3;14646580]So you're being inconsistent. [B]LeBron won 66 games with role players in 2009.[/B] MJ's most wins in the 80s before Pippen became an all-star was 50. By your own logic LeBron was clearly better. Or else you'd have to admit there's more to that goes into team record than simply the best player and their supporting cast on paper. Which would mean you'd also have to admit 22 LeBron was better than Wizards MJ. Can't have it both ways.
Why are you listing Westbrook's raw stats as if they mean anything? His efficiency and impact stats were atrocious. Again why are you listing Melo and Howard? This is like saying MJ had George Gervin and Robert Parish.[/QUOTE]
All-stars are role players? :roll:
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=theman93;14646582]Nope, you're just incapable of understanding the argument. I've already stated Lebron was better individually in 2022 than MJ was in 2002. Yet even with that being the case, MJ somehow went 30-30 compared to Lebron going 26-31 with an even worse supporting cast. Every excuse you can give Lebron, I can give for Jordan. Lebron wasn't as conducive to his teams winning games. Pretty hilarious actually. :roll:[/QUOTE]
MJ wasn't as conducive to his team winning games as 09 and 10 LeBron until Pippen became a superstar. :confusedshrug:
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=RRR3;14646580]So you're being inconsistent. LeBron won 66 games with role players in 2009. MJ's most wins in the 80s before Pippen became an all-star was 50. By your own logic LeBron was clearly better. Or else you'd have to admit there's more to that goes into team record than simply the best player and their supporting cast on paper. Which would mean you'd also have to admit 22 LeBron was better than Wizards MJ. Can't have it both ways.
Why are you listing Westbrook's raw stats as if they mean anything? His efficiency and impact stats were atrocious. Again why are you listing Melo and Howard? This is like saying MJ had George Gervin and Robert Parish.[/QUOTE]
Fair point as the difference in conference matters. So you're right about that.
Westbrook's TS% was 55% without LeBron. So not sure why you're mentioning efficiency. I'm bringing up Melo and Howard because those guys were better than anything MJ had. Again, take your pick.
The point still stands.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646581]Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.[/QUOTE]
What about Chris Whitney, Jahidi White, and Popeye Jones? Is that an impressive group? :roll:
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=theman93;14646582]Nope, you're just incapable of understanding the argument.[B] I've already stated Lebron was better individually in 2022 than MJ was in 2002.[/B] Yet even with that being the case, MJ somehow went 30-30 compared to Lebron going 26-31 with an even worse supporting cast. Every excuse you can give Lebron, I can give for Jordan. Lebron wasn't as conducive to his teams winning games. Pretty hilarious actually. :roll:[/QUOTE]
All I wanted to hear.
Goodnight.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=theman93;14646584]All-stars are role players? :roll:[/QUOTE]
Mo Williams was an injury replacement and career role player who only made it after LeBron complained about him not making it. Charles Oakley was also an all-star, and I don't see you holding that against MJ.
Re: Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646581]Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.[/QUOTE]
You're being disingenuous. Compared to Jahidi White, Chris Whitney, and Popeye Jones? C'mon bro.
