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[QUOTE=tpols;14937142]The Celtics being without two of their All Stars in Kyrie and Hayward was a far bigger blow to Boston than anything Cleveland went through in 2018...
But the biggest thing that blew my mind was you hyping the Oladipo +125,000 odds underdogs as being better than the Cavs.
That's actually insane. :lol[/QUOTE]
Celtics were better without Kyrie. This was common knowledge back then.
I find it a hard argument to make that Curry peak is "as good as anyone ever"
I watched every single game between Lebron in his general peak vs Curry in his and it was clear as day who the better player was. It was a level above for Lebron.
First 3 peat MJ you would feel that same thing if he played against Curry. Win or lose.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14937149]I find it a hard argument to make that Curry peak is "as good as anyone ever"
I watched every single game between Lebron in his general peak vs Curry in his and it was clear as day who the better player was. It was a level above for Lebron.
First 3 peat MJ you would feel that same thing if he played against Curry. Win or lose.[/QUOTE]
Did you watch everything else happening on the court while they were on it?
Steph Curry is the only player I have ever seen who could look mediocre for the majority of the game—then blast an opponent away in the space of 3 minutes.
That's why opponent's sell out to stop him.
That's why people keep complaining about his teammates being so good despite them not having a history of being as good without him.
That's why we see the winning results that we do.
you gotta give Steph credit for changing the game. Bron changed the game in regards to his team. He took drive and kick to the next level, but Steph actually was instrumental in the game changing to just jacking 3s. As he is, by most opinions, by far the best 3 point shooter, and on volume, you have to respect it.
The thing is that there is a level of variance, so it's good to have a balance person who can get middies or score inside. That's why KD was such a great teammate.
Steph might be the GOAT in regards to impacting any team, no matter how stacked they are; anyone care to disagree?
-Smak
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937117]LeBron on the other hand in 2018 was a one man show averaging 35/9/9 on 62 TS% & basically willing his team to the Finals. It's probably the greatest individual run I have ever witnessed.[/QUOTE]
Yea but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If 2017 is Steph's best run and KD wins FMVP, then that's a credit to Steph, not a detriment. Steph saw immense defensive attention and defaulted to KD in order to win. LeBron putting up that stat line is largely because of his teammates of a lack thereof.
His 2022 chip is immense because the Celtics had arguably one of the greatest defenses of all-time, when adjusting for eras. I think something like six Celtics players got All-Defensive or DPOY votes...some crazy 'ish like that. Steph still put up 31 PPG on 63% TS% while being guarded by one of the best man to man defenders of this era.
At the same time, my pushback to that argument from tpols would be, it took a longggg time for us to see that.
[QUOTE=ILLsmak;14937172]you gotta give Steph credit for changing the game. Bron changed the game in regards to his team. He took drive and kick to the next level, but Steph actually was instrumental in the game changing to just jacking 3s. As he is, by most opinions, by far the best 3 point shooter, and on volume, you have to respect it.
The thing is that there is a level of variance, so it's good to have a balance person who can get middies or score inside. That's why KD was such a great teammate.
Steph might be the GOAT in regards to impacting any team, no matter how stacked they are; anyone care to disagree?
-Smak[/QUOTE]
I'm not completely sold on the idea, but it is one to entertain. But then we do have to consider the defensive side of the ball. The question is, does Steph's offensive impact make up for it? I'm not sure it does.
I mean, look at a guy like Hakeem, who no one ever talks about. Steph's over here getting praised for scoring 26-28 PPG while his team leverages his shooting to maximize on spacing, minus any defense at all.
Imagine Hakeem has a bunch of shooters for his entire career in an era like this while offering arguably the greatest defensive impact of all time. It really does make you wonder. He could do what Steph does on the regular while providing GOAT defense.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937146]Celtics were better without Kyrie. This was common knowledge back then.[/QUOTE]
This is false.
[B]2018 Celtics[/B]
With Kyrie: 41-19, +4.4 MOV
Without Kyrie: 14-8, +1.5 MOV
They were noticeably better with Kyrie.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14937230]I'm not completely sold on the idea, but it is one to entertain. But then we do have to consider the defensive side of the ball. The question is, does Steph's offensive impact make up for it? I'm not sure it does.
I mean, look at a guy like Hakeem, who no one ever talks about. Steph's over here getting praised for scoring 26-28 PPG while his team leverages his shooting to maximize on spacing, minus any defense at all.
Imagine Hakeem has a bunch of shooters for his entire career in an era like this while offering arguably the greatest defensive impact of all time. It really does make you wonder. He could do what Steph does on the regular while providing GOAT defense.[/QUOTE]
Except Hakeem never made any of his teams look like a historical outlier. The impact numbers theoretically already account for the defensive side of the ball. Why then do you still think Steph's offensive impact does not make up for the defensive side? Are you applying a serious analysis or are you just grasping at straws?
You say no one is talking about Hakeem, I'd say the truth is even now no one is really talking about Steph. You see superficial reasoning over and over again. What Steph forces defenses to do is materially different from what Hakeem forces defenses to do. But I hardly ever see people acknowledge that.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14937149]I find it a hard argument to make that Curry peak is "as good as anyone ever"
I watched every single game between Lebron in his general peak vs Curry in his and it was clear as day who the better player was. It was a level above for Lebron.
First 3 peat MJ you would feel that same thing if he played against Curry. Win or lose.[/QUOTE]
Steph was so good that he didn't need to touch the ball to make his team better. Just the threat of him off-ball took the attention of the entire defense. Lebron's impact is more visible because he's always with the ball.
And then you think about prime Lebron. Teams sagged off him and gave him space because he was an inconsistent shooter. They wanted him to shoot.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14937228]Yea but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If 2017 is Steph's best run and KD wins FMVP, then that's a credit to Steph, not a detriment. Steph saw immense defensive attention and defaulted to KD in order to win. LeBron putting up that stat line is largely because of his teammates of a lack thereof.
His 2022 chip is immense because the Celtics had arguably one of the greatest defenses of all-time, when adjusting for eras. I think something like six Celtics players got All-Defensive or DPOY votes...some crazy 'ish like that. Steph still put up 31 PPG on 63% TS% while being guarded by one of the best man to man defenders of this era.
At the same time, my pushback to that argument from tpols would be, [B]it took a longggg time for us to see that.[/B][/QUOTE]
I mean what are Currys averages in the playoffs and Finals before 2022? They were still superstar level. 2016 Finals was his only "bad" series and all superstars except MJ have had at least one bad playoff series. Kobes 2004 Finals and Lebrons 2011 Finals were even worse than Currys. So 2022 domination shouldn't be a surprise. We just saw him do it again in the 2024 Olympics when Team USA was on the ropes down 17 in an elimination game.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14937236]This is false.
[B]2018 Celtics[/B]
With Kyrie: 41-19, +4.4 MOV
Without Kyrie: 14-8, +1.5 MOV
They were noticeably better with Kyrie.[/QUOTE]
Boston looked awesome before he got hurt. If Hayward didn't snap his leg in half right @ the start of the season that team would've been a straight up juggernaut capable of swinging with Golden State.
Celtics were 37-30 with Kyrie the next season with the same cast, 12-3 without him.
Made the ECF without him, got spanked in the 2nd round with him in the line-up.
We done with Kyrie!
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937117]LeBron on the other hand in 2018 was a one man show averaging 35/9/9 on 62 TS% & basically willing his team to the Finals. It's probably the greatest individual run I have ever witnessed.[/QUOTE]
The constant drooling I see over LeBron's 2018 always has me cocking an eye brow.
The Cavaliers were favorites to take the Eastern Conference at the beginning of the year. The Oladipo Pacers had no previous track record. The Raptors theoretically should have been a solid matchup but we knew even beforehand they were mentally shook after being swept the previous year and that was even before LeBronto happened. The Celtics were led by a rookie and a sophomore. DeRozan (2nd Team) and Oladipo (3rd Team) were the only All-NBA he faced. This is the impressive run we're supposed to be impressed by? I don't get it.
In comparison in 2022 Curry on his way to the finals faced two All-NBA 1st Team in Jokic (who was also MVP) and Doncic as well as Ja Morant who was All-NBA 2nd Team. In the finals Curry met a much more experienced version of the team that brought LeBron to the brink of elimination 4 years earlier with a now All-NBA 1st Team Jayson Tatum and more All-Defensive guys than you could shake a stick at yet Curry still disposed of them in 6 games.
Curry 2022 simply looks more impressive overall and beating the Celtics who were basically a more experienced version than the one LeBron faced makes it as much of an apples to apples comparison as one can realistically get. Curry in 2022 was even roughly the same age as LeBron was in 2018.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937274]Celtics were 37-30 with Kyrie the next season with the same cast, 12-3 without him.
Made the ECF without him, got spanked in the 2nd round with him in the line-up.
We done with Kyrie![/QUOTE]
It's not the same cast. Hayward was terrible when he returned from injury and that alone cost them a bunch of games and made others on the team upset because they now had less minutes & touches. Celtics looked great with Kyrie in 2018 but were still good enough to get to the ECF without him.
Their Net Rating was actually better in 2019 and they were still 6th in +/-, but there clearly were chemistry issues that weren't all on Kyrie.
Also, the W/L record without Kyrie is very misleading. They played a couple 50-win teams but most of those teams that he sat out against were bad (post-Bron Cavs, Wiz, Kings, Pistons, Nets, Wolves).
goat 3 pt shooter, def