Tmac: 'Replace me with Kobe and I'm with Shaq, I don't win a championship?'

Two flawed stars can win but not if they have the same flaw. Shaq was never a good leader. He was big and strong and athletic but had a terrible habit of allowing his super talented teams to get swept or lose in 5 games.

TMac was also never a leader. That's why he couldn't get out of the first round. Ever.

Talent alone doesn't win titles. Drexler was just as physically gifted and talented as MJ. But he wasn't MJ. The difference wasn't their physical gifts. Same with TMac and Kobe.

Some say the same with Drexler. "Replace MJ with Drexler on the championship Bulls..." after all the initial hard work was done. No, it should start with his rookie year with the same cast MJ started with. The Bulls would have never become 6 time champions. They would have been the Chicago version of the Blazers. Good but not quite good enough. Proof? The Blazers were just as talented as the Bulls if not more so.

So it is with Kobe and TMac.

Kobe burned but at least he leaned into his masculinity. He challenged. TMac was more passive-aggressive, whining and crying behind the scenes while publicly making excuses for 15 years.

That makes a difference.

If you think McGrady was never as good as Penny you just completely underrate him, you’ll never be able to have a reasonable discussion about him.

And McGrady is FAR closer to Kobe than Drexler was to Jordan, that was frankly a terrible analogy.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist;15018261]Two flawed stars can win but not if they have the same flaw. Shaq was never a good leader. He was big and strong and athletic but had a terrible habit of allowing his super talented teams to get swept or lose in 5 games.

TMac was also never a leader. That's why he couldn't get out of the first round. Ever.

Talent alone doesn't win titles. Drexler was just as physically gifted and talented as MJ. But he wasn't MJ. The difference wasn't their physical gifts. Same with TMac and Kobe.

Some say the same with Drexler. "Replace MJ with Drexler on the championship Bulls..." after all the initial hard work was done. No, it should start with his rookie year with the same cast MJ started with. The Bulls would have never become 6 time champions. They would have been the Chicago version of the Blazers. Good but not quite good enough. Proof? The Blazers were just as talented as the Bulls if not more so.

So it is with Kobe and TMac. TMac was never as good as Penny, especially late 90's TMac. Yet we saw Shaq and Penny get swept multiple times when they were talented enough to win it all.

Kobe burned but at least he leaned into his masculinity. He challenged. TMac was more passive-aggressive, whining and crying behind the scenes while publicly making excuses for 15 years.

That makes a difference.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate what you're saying and I agree but I don't think the Drexler comparison is apt. I don't think Drexler was as talented as MJ. To me there was a clear gap in skill, creativity and fundamentals.

Kobe and TMac on the other hand in terms of talent were close to being dead equals. That I've always agreed with.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15018263]If you think McGrady was never as good as Penny you just completely underrate him, you’ll never be able to have a reasonable discussion about him.

And McGrady is FAR closer to Kobe than Drexler was to Jordan, that was frankly a terrible analogy.[/QUOTE]

I would have to agree with him. Penny > Tmac and it's not a super tough choice for me.

TMac was a more talented scorer in isolation but Penny had a complete game himself on top of all the other things he did. He was a leader and game manager.

TMac was the best player on a team that lost 19 straight. I know the Magic weren't a great team but still... :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15018266]

TMac was the best player on a team that lost 19 straight. I know the Magic weren't a great team but still... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

That losing streak happened during the 2004 season, right? I actually completely forgot about that. Wow :lol

Thinking about how everything would line up if you replaced Kobe with TMac... I believe the Lakers best opportunities to win had to be in 2001 and 2005. Again, assuming we just plug and play both players with equal coaches, comp and teammates. Looking back it'd definitely have to be those years.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist;15018261]Two flawed stars can win but not if they have the same flaw. Shaq was never a good leader. He was big and strong and athletic but had a terrible habit of allowing his super talented teams to get swept or lose in 5 games.

TMac was also never a leader. That's why he couldn't get out of the first round. Ever.

T[B]alent alone doesn't win titles. Drexler was just as physically gifted and talented as MJ. But he wasn't MJ. The difference wasn't their physical gifts. Same with TMac and Kobe. [/B]

Some say the same with Drexler. "Replace MJ with Drexler on the championship Bulls..." after all the initial hard work was done. No, it should start with his rookie year with the same cast MJ started with. The Bulls would have never become 6 time champions. They would have been the Chicago version of the Blazers. Good but not quite good enough. Proof? The Blazers were just as talented as the Bulls if not more so.

So it is with Kobe and TMac.

Kobe burned but at least he leaned into his masculinity. He challenged. TMac was more passive-aggressive, whining and crying behind the scenes while publicly making excuses for 15 years.

That makes a difference.[/QUOTE]

Drexler wasn't as talented or skilled. Even in terms of physical gifts he didn't quite have MJ's speed in a half-court situation. Now in a full court sprint where he's on the wing, yeah his athleticism shines through and he was a talented leaper. Wasn't MJ equal in those respects though, and definitely didn't have his motor or tenacity. Tmac lacks those latter attributes in comparison to Kobe, but ( when healthy) was a more impressive athlete( Kobe was a bit quicker) and was more naturally gifted. Did everything Kobe did but was 6'9( Kobe's own words). Now that may have been 'slightly' generous because Kobe's overall skill ceiling eventually outpaced Tmac's as the 2000s went on, but in that 2001 to like 2005 period, the difference between them wasn't as big as Jordan/Drexler.

Well Shaq was traded before the 2005 season, so that wouldn't work. In my hypothetical I presumed TMac wouldn't run Shaq out of LA :lol Either way not exactly a fair assumption.

But yeah, I'd say 2001 would be their best chance. LA ran through the playoffs that year and weren't tested like they were in 2002. Or even in 2000 vs Portland.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15018267]That losing streak happened during the 2004 season, right? I actually completely forgot about that. Wow :lol

Thinking about how everything would line up if you replaced Kobe with TMac... I believe the Lakers best opportunities to win had to be in 2001 and 2005. Again, assuming we just plug and play both players with equal coaches, comp and teammates. [B]Looking back it'd definitely have to be those years.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well yeah, because if we just assume everything happens as it did Tmac fell off hard from 2006 onwards. Even though he had a decent 08 campaign, his best was clearly in the rear mirror by then. I think more than anything, it's about who's coaching the Lakers between 2002 and 2004. Because Kobe was in Shaq's ass to stay in shape and Tmac wasn't going to do that. I wonder if Phil would have gotten through to him or another coach. 2003 Tmac was dynamic but Shaq by 2003 was getting injured on company time and shit like that, that's the year Kobe took over as the main scorer and ran off that nine game streak of 40+. And the Lakers got bounced by the Spurs even with Kobe playing out of his mind, so 2003 Tmac put in that spot doesn't do any better. I really think alot of this comes down to Shaq in that 2003-2005 period, and who's on the coaching/roster. Neither Shaq or Tmac were great 'leaders' per se, but we've seen times where the best player wasn't the leader and the team won. Draymond was pretty much the leader of the Warriors as far as its emotional core. Kawhi was the opposite of a leader on the 2019 Raptors, that fell mostly to Kyle Lowry. Even last year's Celtics team, the two best players were Tatum and Brown. The actual 'leaders' of the team probably swung moreso to Al Hortford and Jrue Holiday.

So with a Shaq/Tmac pairing, they would have needed a third and maybe 4th person to step up as the locker-room leader.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15018273]Well Shaq was traded before the 2005 season, so that wouldn't work. In my hypothetical I presumed TMac wouldn't run Shaq out of LA :lol Either way not exactly a fair assumption.

But yeah, I'd say 2001 would be their best chance. LA ran through the playoffs that year and weren't tested like they were in 2002. Or even in 2000 vs Portland.[/QUOTE]

That's another thing. In a year like 2004 do Payton and Malone still end up on the Lakers? So you've got Shaq, Tmac, Malone and Payton? Or do they go another route in terms of roster moves. That's the thing, I don't think it's JUST about Tmac replacing Kobe.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15018263]If you think McGrady was never as good as Penny you just completely underrate him, you’ll never be able to have a reasonable discussion about him.

And McGrady is FAR closer to Kobe than Drexler was to Jordan, that was frankly a terrible analogy.[/QUOTE]

Its not a terrible analogy at all. Kobe was more ruthlessly discplined than tmac. If tmac had kobes work ethic and psycopathic drive to be the best hed probably be the GOAT. But he didn't and wasn't. That analogy was actually perfect because Clyde had unreal athleticism but wasnt as much of a sociopath as MJ. And same ting for Kobe and tmac.

[QUOTE=tpols;15018280]Its not a terrible analogy at all. Kobe was more ruthlessly discplined than tmac. If tmac had kobes work ethic and psycopathic drive to be the best hed probably be the GOAT. But he didn't and wasn't. That analogy was actually perfect because Clyde had unreal athleticism but wasnt as much of a sociopath as MJ. And same ting for Kobe and tmac.[/QUOTE]
The gap between McGrady & Kobe in the early 2000's was virtually nonexistent, the gap between Jordan & Drexler was always enormous. I know the media tried to create a "debate" between the 2 of them in '92, but they were never remotely comparable as players, Kobe & McGrady were essentially equals.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15018279]That's another thing. In a year like 2004 do Payton and Malone still end up on the Lakers? So you've got Shaq, Tmac, Malone and Payton? Or do they go another route in terms of roster moves. That's the thing, I don't think it's JUST about Tmac replacing Kobe.[/QUOTE]

Of course. There's definitely a lot more to it than TMac's original hypothetical. Which was just wanting to replace Kobe with his absolute BEST years lol. Voila...championship. I personally like the idea of TMac beginning his career in LA and working his way up. You give everything Kobe had to work with to him. Coaching staff, management, players etc. Its more fair and simple enough to debate.

Everything here is speculative, but I'd imagine Phil pushing TMac to maximize his talent, getting the best out of him defensively. Shaq credits Phil with his 2000 MVP season, because it was Phil who challenged him to be ALL-NBA on that end. Would be interesting to see what that duo could accomplish. TMac's expectations would absolutely rise though, and there's a chance he doesn't win anything. So one also has to wonder if he simply benefits just from this hypothetical.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15018284]The gap between McGrady & Kobe in the early 2000's was virtually nonexistent, the gap between Jordan & Drexler was always enormous. I know the media tried to create a "debate" between the 2 of them in '92, but they were never remotely comparable as players, Kobe & McGrady were essentially equals.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying the 2000s, but you should narrow it down like you did with with MJ and Drexler. The conversation between Kobe and TMac lasted for 3 years tops. If even that. From my vantage point, the debate only really got serious from 2002-2003. I don't know many people who thought TMac was better or equal to Kobe in 2005.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15018291]You keep saying the 2000s, but you should narrow it down like you did with with MJ and Drexler. The conversation between Kobe and TMac lasted for 3 years tops. If that. From my vantage point, the debate only really got serious from 2002-2003. I don't know many people who thought TMac was better or equal to Kobe in 2005.[/QUOTE]
Bro, I literally said early 2000's, I understand by like '06 it wasn't a debate anymore :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15018296]Bro, I literally said early 2000's, I understand by like '06 it wasn't a debate anymore :lol[/QUOTE]

That's fair, but honestly who was really debating Kobe and TMac in 2000 and 2001? lol. I definitely heard the AI vs Kobe talks, but Mcgrady didn't really get that kind of love until 2002ish. And the debate peaked in 2003.