Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031215]You can't just replace Yolk with Kobe because Murray's game doesn't mesh with Kobe's. That would be like pairing Yolk with Gasol.

But if you replaced Murray with Kobe, and then gave him a decent big man that's around equal to Murray in value, then of course he has a shot to win with that roster. None of Kobe's championships teams ever had that kind of firepower. Kobe was never on a team where four guys can go off for 20 in the same game.

And for the third time, don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley. The schmuck that doesn't know anything about basketball.[/QUOTE]
Four guys could go off for 20 in the same game on the 23 nuggets besides Jokic and Murray? :oldlol: WHO????

Sorry bub but Kobe only won when he had a clear advantage over other teams talent wise with the exception of I guess 2010 (but he played like crap in that series so it’s weird to give him too much credit). There’s no reason to think he carries a cast to a ring like Jokic did because he simply never did that.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031214]Nobody here is calling Jokic a Hakeem level defender. If that was the case, he would be the clear GOAT.[/QUOTE]

So on a scale of 1-10.

Lets' say Bird is at worst a 7. At worst he's a somewhat mobile 6'10'' body who's GOING to give the effort. He WILL get physical and he WILL help.

What's Yolk then... a negative 3?? :oldlol:

In all seriousness though, in this space and pace small ball era where shooting and speed is the name of the game he's like a 4. He doesn't even TRY on some possessions, KEY possessions. Because he CAN'T. He's too BIG and too SLOW.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031211]He's more a 3pt specialist who hasn't taken enough mid range shots to claim he's the best all around shooter.

2pt only = MJ
3pt = Steph
anywhere inside 28ft = KD[/QUOTE]

Moving this goalposts? This is what you said.

[QUOTE]Quote Originally Posted by Hey Yo View Post
When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time[/QUOTE]


EFG takes into account 2s and 3s and Steph's EFG is is 2.8% higher. :pimp:

[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/61c9c379-dc9e-4342-8972-a3c17258e5a1/f4bc5238-05ba-457a-ac59-9d919480c0c3.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031218]Moving this goalposts? This is what you said.




EFG takes into account 2s and 3s and Steph's EFG is is 2.8% higher. :pimp:[/QUOTE]

Only 7% of Curry's career shots are mid-range compared to KD at 21%. Last time Curry took more 2pa than 3's was 2015... which isn't a bad thing for him. He's the best 3pt shooter in history and should be taking more 3's than 2's, but his claim to best all around sailed due to his shot selection being so lopsided. It's not his fault, that's just the way the league shifted.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031219][IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/61c9c379-dc9e-4342-8972-a3c17258e5a1/f4bc5238-05ba-457a-ac59-9d919480c0c3.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Lemme guess.... you think that's 5 on 1 lol

It's actually 2 on 1 with only 4 GS players visible.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031217]So on a scale of 1-10.

Lets' say Bird is at worst a 7. At worst he's a somewhat mobile 6'10'' body who's GOING to give the effort. He WILL get physical and he WILL help.

What's Yolk then... a negative 3?? :oldlol:

In all seriousness though, in this space and pace small ball era where shooting and speed is the name of the game he's like a 4. He doesn't even TRY on some possessions, KEY possessions. Because he CAN'T. He's too BIG and too SLOW.[/QUOTE]

You are overstating how bad Jokic is as a defender. I don't think he's anywhere near the other all-time great centers on that end, he doesn't have the athletic ability to contest shots at the rim due to his poor vertical, but he's a smart defender with very good hands, he's always near the top of the league in overall deflections and always makes the right rotations.

I would say he is an average to above average defender, which is around what Bird was during his peak. You could argue Bird was the better defender, but it certainly is not going to make up the advantage Jokic has on offense.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031216]Four guys could go off for 20 in the same game on the 23 nuggets besides Jokic and Murray? :oldlol: WHO????.[/QUOTE]

Uh...

[url]https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401704760[/url]
[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401705731/nuggets-kings[/url]

Two games where Nuggets had four guys score 20 more more. In one of those games Pickett who's 5th in scoring has [B]18[/B].

This isn't exclusive to Denver btw. Warriors did it this season as well. Butler who was 5th in scoring also had [B]17[/B].

[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401705371[/url]

This would have been unheard of back then. It wouldn't be possible. Now you have [B]bench[/B] guys who come in and can light it up for 40. That's the league now.

Kobe NEVER had anything like this on his championships teams. Yolk the efficient one is NOT getting 20 points from THREE other players on ANY of those laker teams. Definitely not in that time period either.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031224]You are overstating how bad Jokic is as a defender. I don't think he's anywhere near the other all-time great centers on that end, he doesn't have the athletic ability to contest shots at the rim due to his poor vertical, but he's a smart defender with very good hands, he's always near the top of the league in overall deflections and always makes the right rotations.

I would say he is an average to above average defender, which is around Bird was during his peak. You could argue Bird was the better defender, but it certainly is not going to make up the advantage Jokic has on offense.[/QUOTE]

Bro did you watch the playoffs???

MULTIPLE instances of him giving zero effort and watching guys blow by him or score on second chance opportunities.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031220]Only 7% of Curry's career shots are mid-range compared to KD at 21%. Last time Curry took more 2pa than 3's was 2015... which isn't a bad thing for him. He's the best 3pt shooter in history and should be taking more 3's than 2's, but his claim to best all around sailed due to his shot selection being so lopsided. It's not his fault, that's just the way the league shifted.[/QUOTE]


So are you saying that shots 10-16 feet at the only 2 point shots that count? What about shots from 16 feet to the 3 pt line? Do they not count? What about shots inside 10 feet?

Steph has been in the league 16 years. I think the sample size is pretty big at this point.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031223]Lemme guess.... you think that's 5 on 1 lol

It's actually 2 on 1 with only 4 GS players visible.[/QUOTE]

The picture is self explanatory. All 5 defenders are looking at Steph and ignoring a wide open KD.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031225]Uh...

[url]https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401704760[/url]
[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401705731/nuggets-kings[/url]

Two games where Nuggets had four guys score 20 more more. In one of those games Pickett who's 5th in scoring has [B]18[/B].

This isn't exclusive to Denver btw. Warriors did it this season as well. Butler who was 5th in scoring also had [B]17[/B].

[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401705371[/url]

This would have been unheard of back then. It wouldn't be possible. Now you have [B]bench[/B] guys who come in and can light it up for 40. That's the league now.

Kobe NEVER had anything like this on his championships teams. Yolk the efficient one is NOT getting 20 points from THREE other players on ANY of those laker teams. Definitely not in that time period either.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
First of all those are games from 2025 not 2023. Secondly why are you cherry picking individual games from role players as if that means anything? Overall those guys are nobodies. Furthermore You really think any of those guys would even see the ball enough to score 20 ever with Kobe hogging it?

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031229]First of all those are games from 2025 not 2023. Secondly why are you cherry picking individual games from role players as if that means anything? Overall those guys are nobodies. Furthermore You really think any of those guys would even see the ball enough to score 20 ever with Kobe hogging it?[/QUOTE]

Everyone in the lineup is a threat to score today. That WASN'T the case back then.

Kobe won on teams where he had a MUCH greater burden to carry offensively. He's also won on teams where SHAQ carried the burden offensively. He's won leading in front and also leading from the back. FIVE times.

I'm pretty sure he could manage on a team where EVERYONE can score. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031226]Bro did you watch the playoffs???

MULTIPLE instances of him giving zero effort and watching guys blow by him or score on second chance opportunities.[/QUOTE]

There are holes in his defense, I believe he still led all his teammates in Defensive Rating for the entire regular season & playoffs last season. Someone who is horrific on defense is not going to do that.

Bird getting blown by was a common occurrence for him, there is a reason why McHale was the one who usually guarded the athletic small forwards on the perimeter instead of Bird.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031230]Everyone in the lineup is a threat to score today. That WASN'T the case back then.

Kobe won on teams where he had a MUCH greater burden to carry offensively. He's also won on teams where SHAQ carried the burden offensively. He's won leading in front and also leading from the back. FIVE times.

I'm pretty sure he could manage on a team where EVERYONE can score. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
You are cherry picking individual games to claim scrubs like Jalen Pickett can score :oldlol:
He averaged FOUR ppg. And no sorry Kobe has never been tasked with the same responsibilities in terms of playmaking as Jokic is. He was too busy forcing up contested shots. Jokic can win a game with his passing alone. Kobe couldn’t do that.