ISHiots:oldlol: Using Kobe's stats from when he was 18, 19, 20. Pippen wasn't even in the NBA until he was 22.
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ISHiots:oldlol: Using Kobe's stats from when he was 18, 19, 20. Pippen wasn't even in the NBA until he was 22.
BTW...from Pippen's OWN MOUTH, "If he's not the next Michael Jordan I don't know who is"
[QUOTE=eliteballer]BTW...from Pippen's OWN MOUTH, "If he's not the next Michael Jordan I don't know who is"[/QUOTE]
you misquote the great scottie pippen:banghead:
[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZuD_cOBkTsM[/url]
Pippen said it in the lockeroom after a game when he was still playing:no:
[QUOTE=eliteballer]BTW...from Pippen's OWN MOUTH, "If he's not the next Michael Jordan I don't know who is"[/QUOTE]
The only thing I can conclude from that is that Pippen doesn't know who the next Michael Jordan is.
MJ vs Kobe comparison are so played out / annoying / pointless.
I prefer MJ and am of the opinion that he was the greater player, but really, what does it matter? They are 2 different players who peaked in different eras with different supporting casts and different opponents. Get over it and just enjoy both players for the individual talents that they are/were.
Jordan selfish? Kobe never had to play team ball in his life. High School he was the star and was a ball hog. Went to the NBA and became an even bigger ball hog. Jordan played in a system that did not let him stand out. He learned to play with the team because thats the way things were by Dean Smith.
Of course he is going to stand out on a lottery team in his first year because he was the best player on a bad team.
[QUOTE=BIGSHOT]Current Kobe Bryant> Prime Jordan.
Kobe is the G.O.A.T[/QUOTE]
Yup. Kobe is about to win the chip with no other All NBA performers while Jordan needed a top 5 player in the entire league.:roll:
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]you misquote the great scottie pippen:banghead:
[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZuD_cOBkTsM[/url][/QUOTE]
Damn exposed that dude. Mark Jackson is such an idiot. Kobe going down as the greatest ever..LMAO. Kobe is the best now but never better than Jordan.
Jordan shot a higher percent with his fade away than Kobe does on a regular jump shot. Jordan averaged over 30 points per game in his career. That's with Jordan bringing down his PPG average playing with the Wizards at 40. Jordan has 6 rings, DPOY, highest playoff scoring average. Kobe is getting old and still hasn't accomplished half of what Jordan has. Kobe Bryant is a creation. Jordan made Kobe. With out Jordan's style and moves Kobe wouldn't have anything to strive to be like.
Kobe Bryant will never be better than Jordan.
[QUOTE]Here's the real stats, I used Pippen's stats from 89-90 (3rd year in league, first as full time starter) to 00-01 and Kobe's whole career, including his 15mpg rookie year. All stats from NBA.com, all all for regular season
Steals: Kobe 1321, Pippen 1850
Assists: Kobe 4002, Pippen 5012
Blocks: Kobe 507, Pippen 765
Boards: Kobe 4590, Pippen 6084
Points: Kobe 21,619, Pippen 15,683
2k point seasons: Kobe 5, Pippen 0 (career high of 1720)
80 game seasons: Kobe 4, Pippen 6 (50 or less games seasons: Kobe 1, Pippen 2)
Other than points, and a few stats here and there, what he posted was accurate.[/QUOTE]
How are they accurate as long as, not only has he completely reversed some of the owners of these numbers but he hasn't even got one of the other numbers correct?
Having read some more of his posts, I can assure you he's just using his own estimations to post numbers, because the real figures never agree with his quoted.
BTW, since I first opened this thread, the only thing I read is comparing their careers once again. It's got really tiring to see every similar thread getting derailed. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]You honestly think Jordan got protected by the league and the reds when he first entered the league?[/QUOTE]
yes, and i watched the games. jordan also shot more free throws than anyone else besided moses malone
[QUOTE]Jordan was expected to be good but he wasn't expected to be the best ever when he was drafted. Jordan easily had to deal with tougher fouls and more contact in his rookie season[/QUOTE]
jordan didn't end up being the best ever, would've been if he never retired the first time and won 1 more championship, but unfortunately for him he didn't. more contact/hard checking only started late 80's and into the 90's.
[QUOTE]Throw in Grant Hill, Alonzo Mourning, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone, Vince Carter and arguably guys like Dikembe Mutombo and Michael Finley..[/QUOTE]
hill: 14th, mourning: 7th, kidd: 8th, malone: 9th, carter: 10th, mutombo: :roll: , finley: 16th
[QUOTE]Yeah but my point is if Kobe didn't have Shaq then how mnay wins do you really think he would have had in 2000?[/QUOTE]
impossible to say. shaq at that point was in his peak, a peak that was greater than anyone's peak in nba history. glen rice would've got alot more touches without shaq there..probably would've been closer to his charlotte production, bryant would've been much better statistically aswell and i could see the lakers winning 45-50 games.
[QUOTE]If you mean among 2000, 2001 and 2004 then yeah that sounds right because KG and Duncan could easily be argued as better players in 2004[/QUOTE]
shaq was only the best player in the nba in 2000, and 2001, aswell as '97 and '98.
[QUOTE]Part of that is because he's improved as a three point shooter.
In 1999 Bryant shot 26.7% on 3's, in 2000 he shot 31.9% on 3's, in 2001 he shot 30.5% on 3's and in 2002 he shot 25.0% on 3's.
His 3P% was bringing down his TS%. Bryant's TS% probably has a lot to do with him working hard to improve his 3 point shot.[/QUOTE]
you said kobe shot better with shaq than without shaq, i gave the numbers that proved he shot better without shaq.
[QUOTE]Yeah, so? I was just pointing out Jordan did have range beyond 15 feet back then. Having more range also doesn't mean a lot in deciding who the better player is.[/QUOTE]
it gives the player with range alot more weapons on the offensive end, instead of sagging off your man you have to be up in his face as soon as he gets to 35 feet, it means that his defender can't help out in the post as easily and play off the ball defense as well either..it does have alot of bearing when discussing who was the better player offensively atleast.
[QUOTE]you obviously don't understand how basketball works..hand checking = tougher defense[/QUOTE]
you = shut up.
more physical defense didn't come into the league until the late 80's, and into the 90's. in the early part of this decade basketball was called more or less the same as it was in 1985, except for the fact that you got suspended less back then.
[QUOTE]and more points doesn't equal worse defense it means more shots were taken because coaches had more trust in players to shoot better from outside..it was okay back then to come down by yourself 1 on 4 and jack up a shot because guys were better shooters[/QUOTE]
the emphasis was on outscoring your opponent, not stopping your opponent. these days and early on in this decade the emphasis has been on stopping your opponent, and better defense is the result..:lol and it was never ok to jack up a shot when in a 1 on 4 situation so stop guessing about how the game was played and go back and watch some tape
[QUOTE=Shep]yes, and i watched the games. jordan also shot more free throws than anyone else besided moses malone[/QUOTE]
That's because of his unmatched quickness and athleticism and the fact that he went to the basket more than any other player. If you can get by the defender and dunk on the team that often then you are going to get fouled a lot if you go to the basket.
[QUOTE]jordan didn't end up being the best ever, would've been if he never retired the first time and won 1 more championship, but unfortunately for him he didn't.[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant really. I don't feel like arguing that. I personally feel that Jordan was hands down the best ever although giving that honor to a guy like Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell or Bird isn't crazy
[QUOTE]more contact/hard checking only started late 80's and into the 90's.[/QUOTE]
I've seen plenty of really physical mid 80's games.
[QUOTE]hill: 14th, mourning: 7th, kidd: 8th, malone: 9th, carter: 10th, mutombo: :roll: , finley: 16th[/QUOTE]
Grant Hill averaged 26, 7 and 5 on 49% shooting, 35% 3 point shooting and 80% free throw shooting. Sure his team only finished 2 games above .500 but replace Kobe with Grant Hill and I highly doubt the Lakers get any worse.
Mourning averaged nearly 22 and 10 with almost 4 blocks and he won the defensive player of the year award. Not to mention he was by far the best player on a 52 win team that finished second in the East. Mourning fit all the criteria for a top 5 player that year IMO. 50 win season, number 2 seed, great defense, very good stats and he was the best player on his team.
Kidd was the best player on a 53 win team in the tough Western Conference. He averaged over 14 and 7 and led the league with over 10 assists per game. He also played excellent defense and shot the ball decent by his standards. Sure he had Penny Hardaway who was still an excellent player but Penny missed 22 games.
Karl Malone was the best player on a 55 win team and the 3rd seed in the West. He averaged 25.5 and 9.5 with nearly 4 assists and played good defense.
Carter led his team to the playoffs with a poor supporting cast. Vince led Toronto to 45 wins and he was one of the most explosive players in the league. He averaged over 3 ppg more than bryant, shot just as well from the field, rebounded about the same and he was a much better jump shooter.
Dikembe Mutombo averaged a double double while leading the league in rebounding with over 14 a game, finishing second in blocks with over 3 a game, finishing 3rd in DPOY voting and he was even efficient on offense shooting 56% from the field and 71% from the line. If you want to say Kobe's better than I can see why for multiple reasons but in my personal opinion Mutombo has a case. If I'm playing devils advocate then I'd say Kobe's better because of his ability to make plays for his teammates and carry team on offense not to mention Atlanta's team was horrible.
Michael Finley averaged nearly 23 ppg and over 6 rpg/5apg while leading a pretty poor Dallas team to a respectable record. It's debatable if he was a better player than Kobe because Bryant was a superior defender but I think if you put him on that Laker team instead of Bryant they don't get any worse.
I forgot about Eddie Jones who led Charlotte to 49 wins while averaging over 20 ppg and 4 apg with nearly 5 rpg and finishing 3rd in DPOY voting.
I also forgot about Allen Iverson who finished 2nd in scoring with over 28 ppg, led Philadelphia to 49 wins without much help, averaged nearly 5 apg and shot the ball fairly well for a volume shooter.
[QUOTE]impossible to say. shaq at that point was in his peak, a peak that was greater than anyone's peak in nba history.[/QUOTE]
Even though Shaq's my favorite player I never thought about his peak as the best in NBA history but you may be right. During his peak he was the best scorer in the league, one of the better rebounders and shot blockers, an elite passer for a big man, a great team player, a very good defender and a winner with 3 straight championships/Finals MVP's.
[QUOTE] glen rice would've got alot more touches without shaq there..probably would've been closer to his charlotte production, bryant would've been much better statistically aswell and i could see the lakers winning 45-50 games.[/QUOTE]
Pretty good point about Rice because he was a jump shooter who was only 2 seasons removed from a 22 ppg season and only he had averaged 17.5 ppg the year before. I could see him in the 18-20 ppg range.
Kobe would have probably put up around 25, 7 and over 5 apg. However I'm not sure if Kobe could have led a very good team at that point in his career. I'd see 45 wins max.
[QUOTE]shaq was only the best player in the nba in 2000, and 2001, aswell as '97 and '98.[/QUOTE]
Shaq is my favorite player but he doesn't have a case against 1996-1997 Jordan.
1997-1998 is closer but I'd still give Jordan the edge. Remember Jordan played injured for a good chunk of that year and Pippen missed a lot of games.
[QUOTE]it gives the player with range alot more weapons on the offensive end, instead of sagging off your man you have to be up in his face as soon as he gets to 35 feet, it means that his defender can't help out in the post as easily and play off the ball defense as well either..it does have alot of bearing when discussing who was the better player offensively atleast.
[/QUOTE]
Ehhh better range is nice but it comes behind scoring, rebounding, passing and playmaking.
For example Vince Carter may still have the best range in the league(or atleast he did in 2006-2007) but he is nowhere near the best player in the league despite being solid in every area other than defense.
Rookie Jordan was a much better scorer than 2000 Bryant, about equal as a rebounder(you could argue 2000 Bryant was a better rebounder) and a better passer/playmaker.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]BTW...from Pippen's OWN MOUTH, "If he's not the next Michael Jordan I don't know who is"[/QUOTE]
Kobe is by far the closest to Jordan but that doesn't mean he is anywhere near as good as Jordan. It just means Jordan is head and shoulders above everyone else and Kobe is well above any other shooting guard in this era.
[QUOTE]That's because of his unmatched quickness and athleticism and the fact that he went to the basket more than any other player. If you can get by the defender and dunk on the team that often then you are going to get fouled a lot if you go to the basket.[/QUOTE]
silly statement. jordan shot more free throw attempts per field goals made than at any point in his career, even more than the seasons he averaged 37ppg, and 35ppg. these are facts.
[QUOTE]Irrelevant really. I don't feel like arguing that. I personally feel that Jordan was hands down the best ever although giving that honor to a guy like Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell or Bird isn't crazy[/QUOTE]
if you are convinced at what you believe is right, anything other than the correct answer is crazy..you obviously aren't too sure.
[QUOTE]I've seen plenty of really physical mid 80's games.[/QUOTE]
..as have there been plenty of physical games in the early 00's
[QUOTE]Grant Hill averaged 26, 7 and 5 on 49% shooting, 35% 3 point shooting and 80% free throw shooting. Sure his team only finished 2 games above .500 but replace Kobe with Grant Hill and I highly doubt the Lakers get any worse.[/QUOTE]
you'll never know for sure what another player would do on another team so why speculate? what happened happened.
hill was only slightly better statistically than bryant and was the best small forward in the nba, but kobe was obviously the much better defender, contributed to a greater cause, and was the second best player on one of the most dominant teams in the history of the nba. i liken this comparison to the one of scottie pippen vs tim hardaway in 1996 - hardaway is slightly the better player statistically (only won 42 games), but pippen was a much better defender, and won alot more games as the second best player on a dominant team. pippen > hardaway, bryant > hill
[QUOTE]Mourning averaged nearly 22 and 10 with almost 4 blocks and he won the defensive player of the year award. Not to mention he was by far the best player on a 52 win team that finished second in the East. Mourning fit all the criteria for a top 5 player that year IMO. 50 win season, number 2 seed, great defense, very good stats and he was the best player on his team.[/QUOTE]
zo was right behind bryant, in sixth spot..but i'm fine with the fact that you have him over kobe, simply because you are a mortal and it was very close between the two players.
[QUOTE]Kidd was the best player on a 53 win team in the tough Western Conference. He averaged over 14 and 7 and led the league with over 10 assists per game. He also played excellent defense and shot the ball decent by his standards. Sure he had Penny Hardaway who was still an excellent player but Penny missed 22 games.[/QUOTE]
all these reasons only made it close between the two players. again, statistically kidd was better..but he shot only 40%, and wasn't the defender bryant was. phoenix also had an embarassment of riches in terms of basketbally talent, being only team in the league who had four players of the caliber of kidd, hardaway, clifford robinson, and tom gugliotta, in other words there were zero teams with a fourth best player who was as good as tom gugliotta, not to mention also having the leagues sixth man of the year rodney rogers on their roster aswell.
[QUOTE]Karl Malone was the best player on a 55 win team and the 3rd seed in the West. He averaged 25.5 and 9.5 with nearly 4 assists and played good defense.[/QUOTE]
yes, good enough for top 9. 36 year old malone was fading and was nowhere near the player he was when he deserved the mvp, and led the jazz to the finals just two years earlier.
[QUOTE]Carter led his team to the playoffs with a poor supporting cast. Vince led Toronto to 45 wins and he was one of the most explosive players in the league. He averaged over 3 ppg more than bryant, shot just as well from the field, rebounded about the same and he was a much better jump shooter.[/QUOTE]
its obvious you care little about wins. all the players you've mentioned so far are statistically superior to kobe, but its plain to see that kobe is much better because of things like wins, and defense. i can't think of any reason why you'd have carter over bryant in '00 if you actually watched games, but you're a fanboy so i'll let it slide
[QUOTE]Dikembe Mutombo averaged a double double while leading the league in rebounding with over 14 a game, finishing second in blocks with over 3 a game, finishing 3rd in DPOY voting and he was even efficient on offense shooting 56% from the field and 71% from the line. If you want to say Kobe's better than I can see why for multiple reasons but in my personal opinion Mutombo has a case. If I'm playing devils advocate then I'd say Kobe's better because of his ability to make plays for his teammates and carry team on offense not to mention Atlanta's team was horrible.[/QUOTE]
so we agree kobe's better
[QUOTE]Michael Finley averaged nearly 23 ppg and over 6 rpg/5apg while leading a pretty poor Dallas team to a respectable record. It's debatable if he was a better player than Kobe because Bryant was a superior defender but I think if you put him on that Laker team instead of Bryant they don't get any worse.[/QUOTE]
so we agree kobe's better
[QUOTE]I forgot about Eddie Jones who led Charlotte to 49 wins while averaging over 20 ppg and 4 apg with nearly 5 rpg and finishing 3rd in DPOY voting.[/QUOTE]
kobe had him in almost every category and the lakers won 18 more games. charlotte had the best starting five in the nba and should've done alot more than 49 wins and losing 3-1 in the first round.
[QUOTE]I also forgot about Allen Iverson who finished 2nd in scoring with over 28 ppg, led Philadelphia to 49 wins without much help, averaged nearly 5 apg and shot the ball fairly well for a volume shooter.[/QUOTE]
yes, good enough for 11th. 28 points on 25 shots? laughable. iverson also had more help than you think, with contributions from very solid role players like theo ratliff (11.9/7.6/3bpg), toni kukoc (14.8/4.9/4.7), eric snow (7.9/7.6apg/1.7spg), and george lynch (9.6/7.8/1.6spg). iverson wouldn't have it any other way anyway, the team was made around him to compliment him, he couldn't, and he can't succeed with another star, or another offensive minded player beside him..a major reason why kukoc left after a short stint.
[QUOTE]Even though Shaq's my favorite player I never thought about his peak as the best in NBA history but you may be right. During his peak he was the best scorer in the league, one of the better rebounders and shot blockers, an elite passer for a big man, a great team player, a very good defender and a winner with 3 straight championships/Finals MVP's.[/QUOTE]
his one year peak i'm talking about, and shaq in '00 was better than anyone has ever been for one full season.
[QUOTE]Shaq is my favorite player but he doesn't have a case against 1996-1997 Jordan.
1997-1998 is closer but I'd still give Jordan the edge. Remember Jordan played injured for a good chunk of that year and Pippen missed a lot of games.[/QUOTE]
the lakers went 38-13 with shaq in the line up in the '97 season, and he made everybody on the lakers roster better..on top of being clearly more dominant and clearly more statistically sound than jordan. jordan wasn't top 3 in '98.
[QUOTE]Rookie Jordan was a much better scorer than 2000 Bryant, about equal as a rebounder(you could argue 2000 Bryant was a better rebounder) and a better passer/playmaker.[/QUOTE]
bryant was an all-league defender, had the best record in the nba and won the championship, had the more polished game, and was overall the better player.
[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Damn exposed that dude. Mark Jackson is such an idiot. Kobe going down as the greatest ever..LMAO. Kobe is the best now but never better than Jordan.
Jordan shot a higher percent with his fade away than Kobe does on a regular jump shot. Jordan averaged over 30 points per game in his career. That's with Jordan bringing down his PPG average playing with the Wizards at 40. Jordan has 6 rings, DPOY, highest playoff scoring average. Kobe is getting old and still hasn't accomplished half of what Jordan has. Kobe Bryant is a creation. Jordan made Kobe. With out Jordan's style and moves Kobe wouldn't have anything to strive to be like.
Kobe Bryant will never be better than Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Repped.
[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Jordan selfish? Kobe never had to play team ball in his life. High School he was the star and was a ball hog. Went to the NBA and became an even bigger ball hog. Jordan played in a system that did not let him stand out. He learned to play with the team because thats the way things were by Dean Smith.
Of course he is going to stand out on a lottery team in his first year because he was the best player on a bad team.[/QUOTE]
Explain to me your definition of ballhog
[QUOTE=Shep]silly statement. jordan shot more free throw attempts per field goals made than at any point in his career, even more than the seasons he averaged 37ppg, and 35ppg. these are facts.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying MJ was given more superstar calls as a rookie than he was in his 37 ppg season?
[QUOTE]if you are convinced at what you believe is right, anything other than the correct answer is crazy..you obviously aren't too sure.[/QUOTE]
I'm convinced Jordan is the best ever and I'll state several dozen reasons if anyone asks me to back up that statement. However I don't want to act like an ******* and say "my opinion is 100% right and everyone who disagrees is wrong"
[QUOTE]you'll never know for sure what another player would do on another team so why speculate? what happened happened.
hill was only slightly better statistically than bryant and was the best small forward in the nba, but kobe was obviously the much better defender, contributed to a greater cause, and was the second best player on one of the most dominant teams in the history of the nba. i liken this comparison to the one of scottie pippen vs tim hardaway in 1996 - hardaway is slightly the better player statistically (only won 42 games), but pippen was a much better defender, and won alot more games as the second best player on a dominant team. pippen > hardaway, bryant > hill[/QUOTE]
Hill only slightly better statistically?
Grant Hill 25.8 ppg>>> Kobe Bryant 22.5 ppg
Grant Hill 6.6 rpg> Kobe Bryant 6.3 rpg
Grant Hill 5.2 apg> Kobe Bryant 4.9 apg
Grant Hill 48.9 FG%>> 46.8 FG%
Grant Hill 34.7 3P%> 31.9 3P%
[QUOTE]all these reasons only made it close between the two players. again, statistically kidd was better..but he shot only 40%, and wasn't the defender bryant was. phoenix also had an embarassment of riches in terms of basketbally talent, being only team in the league who had four players of the caliber of kidd, hardaway, clifford robinson, and tom gugliotta, in other words there were zero teams with a fourth best player who was as good as tom gugliotta, not to mention also having the leagues sixth man of the year rodney rogers on their roster aswell.[/QUOTE]
Phoenix also had a lot of injuries that year. Kidd was the best player on his team and he didn't have the luxuary of playing with the man who you even said had the best season ever.
[QUOTE]yes, good enough for top 9. 36 year old malone was fading and was nowhere near the player he was when he deserved the mvp, and led the jazz to the finals just two years earlier.[/QUOTE]
I don't care what he did in comparison to 1998. Malone averaged over 25 ppg as the best player on a team that won 55 games. That is better than what Kobe did.
[QUOTE]its obvious you care little about wins. all the players you've mentioned so far are statistically superior to kobe, but its plain to see that kobe is much better because of things like wins, and defense. i can't think of any reason why you'd have carter over bryant in '00 if you actually watched games, but you're a fanboy so i'll let it slide[/QUOTE]
I watch games and have for years. I don't hold Kobe's wins against Vince because Kobe was by far the second option on his team and the Lakers went 12-4 in the games he missed.
[QUOTE]kobe had him in almost every category and the lakers won 18 more games. charlotte had the best starting five in the nba and should've done alot more than 49 wins and losing 3-1 in the first round.[/QUOTE]
The stats were close, Eddie Jones was the best player on his team and he played clearly better defense than Bryant.
[QUOTE]yes, good enough for 11th. 28 points on 25 shots? laughable. iverson also had more help than you think, with contributions from very solid role players like theo ratliff (11.9/7.6/3bpg), toni kukoc (14.8/4.9/4.7), eric snow (7.9/7.6apg/1.7spg), and george lynch (9.6/7.8/1.6spg). iverson wouldn't have it any other way anyway, the team was made around him to compliment him, he couldn't, and he can't succeed with another star, or another offensive minded player beside him..a major reason why kukoc left after a short stint.[/QUOTE]
How does that supporting cast compare to Kobe's team which included the man who you said played better than anyone has ever played, Glen Rice a guy who was 2 years removed from averaging 20 ppg and just 3 years removed from a 27 ppg season along with other great role players like Horry, Fisher, Fox and AC Green.
[QUOTE]jordan wasn't top 3 in '98.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=Shep]bryant was an all-league defender, had the best record in the nba and won the championship, had the more polished game, and was overall the better player.[/QUOTE]
The best record is due to the man who you said played better than anyone has ever played as is the championship.