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[QUOTE][B]O.J. Mayo[/B], Bill Walker, Chris Douglas-Roberts, DaJuan Wagner [B]being instructed by Mike Procopio and Tim Grover of the A.T.T.A.C.K. Athletics Training Center in Chicago.[/B] [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_5IspZmx8&t=4m0s[/url][/QUOTE][img]http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628081408367828.gif[/img] [img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628081525982805.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=Phong]If you look at the [I]Guideline For Officials[/I] video it specifically says that the play is legal as long as the ball is released before landing on the pivot foot again.
Here's a video of the move taught a Ganon Baker's academy:
[img]http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628040318154717.gif[/img]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83552NrHUwY[/url]
[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"][I]Ganon Baker Basketball is a Basketball Services Company, sponsored by Nike. Ganon Baker Basketball has worked closely with Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Vince Carter, Amar'e Stoudemire, and Deron Williams at each of their Skill Academies and has trained multiple NBA stars such as Chris Paul, Jerryd Bayless, Kevin Durant and Amare Stoudemire to name a few.[/I][/COLOR]
Who says
What have you proven so far?[/QUOTE]
That's a damn shame a trainer is teaching these young kids how to travel on the step-thru move :oldlol: I was always taught if you lift your pivot foot and change to the other foot that's a clear extra step and therefore a travel. How could it not be? If you have to switch the pivot foot to get the shot off that's an extra step. Extra step = travel...no ifs, ands or buts about it. Now if your pivot foot leaves the floor at the same time as the off foot then that's not an extra step. This is how that move should be performed.
Notice the pivot foot and the off foot always leave the floor simultaneously.
[IMG]http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7568/pippenlowblock4.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7462/pippenlowblockreplay.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6861/pippenlowblock2.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Phong][img]http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628081408367828.gif[/img] [img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628081525982805.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
Maybe they're using Stern's new rules now. This is a freakin league that lets players get away with 3-4 steps these days. I wouldn't be surprised if trainers just said **** it and adapted :oldlol:
[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Maybe they're using Stern's new rules now. This is a freakin league that lets players get away with 3-4 steps these days. I wouldn't be surprised if trainers just said **** it and adapted :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
It is allowed in Euroleague as well, many players from Europe even struggle with travelling when coming to the NBA.
I love threads like these bc they expose the level of knowledge posters have.
[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]That's a damn shame a trainer is teaching these young kids how to travel on the step-thru move :oldlol: I was always taught if you lift your pivot foot and change to the other foot that's a clear extra step and therefore a travel. How could it not be? If you have to switch the pivot foot to get the shot off that's an extra step. Extra step = travel...no ifs, ands or buts about it. Now if your pivot foot leaves the floor at the same time as the off foot then that's not an extra step. This is how that move should be performed. [/QUOTE]Then show me evidences that you must jump off two feet. Whether it's written in the rule book, plays where a travel is called, videos where the move is explained or else. So far the only thing you have done is say that you've always been taught this or that.
Now clarify this for me. Since the first foot you plant after picking up your dribble is your pivot foot and your first step, and you're allowed two steps, why do you keep talking about extra steps and switching pivot? How do you count the steps?
That move is basically a running layup with extra "jab moves" in between the two steps.
Notice how the rule book says the "pivot foot may be lifted" and not "you must jump off the pivot foot for a shot attempt".
[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Notice the pivot foot and the off foot always leave the floor simultaneously. [/QUOTE]And I can show you many videos where it's not the case. That doesn't prove anything.
Btw, your third gif he jumps off one foot.
[img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628065916979822.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Maybe they're using Stern's new rules now.[/QUOTE]The move is also legal in international competitions.
Stern has nothing to do with this. I guess Stern has become the guy in the shadows that is blamed for everything that goes against your own belief.
[QUOTE=JM720][IMG]http://ploader.net/files/9bcdd6a42d39be6841c40656c1c4f61e.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
THIS IS ART
I haven't read through the whole thread, but good stuff.
Thanks for posting.
Mooooooooooooore GIFS
[QUOTE=JM720][IMG]http://ploader.net/files/9bcdd6a42d39be6841c40656c1c4f61e.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:bowdown:
[QUOTE=Jacks3]:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
how the fck does he stop so fast
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]:facepalm[/QUOTE]
it is brah, he switched his pivot foot from right to the left
[QUOTE=BlackJoker23][img]http://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/5g/o8/2k/cdestroykb.gif[/img]
u mad kobe stans?[/QUOTE]
This :rockon:
The inability of some to recognize when a rule is legally stretched without being broken is a constant part of this game's evolution.
After learning the "euro-step" from Rafer Alston in 1996 I started using it in parks and tournaments that summer. The first two times I got called for a travel. The third time the ref let it go and the opposing coach went ballistic. During a deadball the ref explained, "it' looks stupid as hell but its only two steps". LOL
[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]That's a damn shame a trainer is teaching these young kids how to travel on the step-thru move :oldlol: I was always taught if you lift your pivot foot and change to the other foot that's a clear extra step and therefore a travel. How could it not be? If you have to switch the pivot foot to get the shot off that's an extra step. Extra step = travel...no ifs, ands or buts about it. Now if your pivot foot leaves the floor at the same time as the off foot then that's not an extra step. This is how that move should be performed. [/QUOTE]
I'll admit that when I first saw the GIF I thought it was a travel too. But after looking at the rules closer and looking at all the videos posted, it's not a travel.
If you want to count the steps, look at it this way:
Once you pick up your dribble, your first step is the pivot foot. At this point, you can pivot around all you want, but just think of it as the person still being on his/her first step. After you lift your pivot foot, you have now taken 2 steps. Now, you can stand on one leg/shoot/pass or whatever without landing back on the pivot foot (hence the step-through move).
If the person's pivot foot lands back down with the ball still in possession, then you count that as step #3. Basically, you don't have to jump off both feet, but your lifted pivot foot can't land back down with the ball.
This whole debate is why I don't take fans complaining about refs very seriously. A vast majority don't even know about the rules they're complaining about. Just look at the number of people that are dead certain that Kobe play is a travel.
[QUOTE=monkeypox]This whole debate is why I don't take fans complaining about refs very seriously. A vast majority don't even know about the rules they're complaining about. Just look at the number of people that are dead certain that Kobe play is a travel.[/QUOTE]
Excellent point :applause: Never even considered that angle.
[QUOTE=gblz]I'll admit that when I first saw the GIF I thought it was a travel too. But after looking at the rules closer and looking at all the videos posted, it's not a travel.
If you want to count the steps, look at it this way:
Once you pick up your dribble, your first step is the pivot foot. At this point, you can pivot around all you want, but just think of it as the person still being on his/her first step. After you lift your pivot foot, you have now taken 2 steps. Now, you can stand on one leg/shoot/pass or whatever without landing back on the pivot foot (hence the step-through move).
If the person's pivot foot lands back down with the ball still in possession, then you count that as step #3. Basically, you don't have to jump off both feet, but your lifted pivot foot can't land back down with the ball.[/QUOTE]There's no point trying to explain anything to him. I've made a detailed step by step break down of the move with the step count on the previous page, and instead of coming back and admitting his mistakes he just disappeared.
That's what they all do. Call it a travel despite all the video evidences and rule book, add a laughing smiley to pretend they are laughing at people's "stupidity", say that they have years of balling behind them but when challenged to provide any proof or explain how they count steps they suddenly disappear.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]It's amazing that people are actually arguing this. At least Samurai's contention was that both feet left the floor at the same time, but some of these dudes actually think that the pivot foot can leave the floor first.
lmao @ IGOTGAME. [B]Learn how to play the game.[/B] :oldlol: The rule you posted is not an exhaustive explanation of every circumstance that constitutes a travel. It's a rule for ONE situation. There are many others.[/QUOTE]
@DaKOKING, the worst part is when to "learn to play the game."
Also, I used to do a lot pivot moves on the block...but it is frustrating that I cannot do all of that stuff at the parks(without real refs) due to people who don't understand the rules.
[QUOTE=DixieNourmous]This is GOAT footwork....
[IMG]http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/BigM211/CrabDribble.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=N0Skillz]how the fck does he stop so fast[/QUOTE]
by studying MJ's game 1995-1998. MJ did stuff like this frequently which was very close to travel. But this one is travel.
[QUOTE=N0Skillz]how the fck does he stop so fast[/QUOTE]
This is amateur stuff.
[B][SIZE="3"]watch @ 8:35[/SIZE][/B]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztuspM7TNE"]"Stop on a dime" Pull Up fadeaway[/URL]
[SIZE="2"][B]Here is a real MJ "stop on a dime" fadeaway jumper[/B][/SIZE]. :bowdown:
[B][SIZE="2"]notice he is penetrating at speed & fadeaway pull up on a dime.[/SIZE][/B] :bowdown:
[B]"Unmatchable" footwork off the corner. Its the footwork that sets up escape dribble & dunk.[/B]
[B]I've never seen anyone even attempt this one let alone copy it.[/B]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkEVn1VUBlE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkEVn1VUBlE[/URL]
[QUOTE=Phong]Yeah technically you don't change pivot, you just travel.
Travel:
[img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/1106280538585913.gif[/img]
What he does is pick up his dribble and plant his pivot (1) as his first step. He pivots, then when he lifts his pivot foot, the non-pivot foot becomes the second step (2). So far according to the rule, everything is fine as long as he passes or shoot now.
Since he plants his original pivot back down with the ball still in his hands, he took his third step (3). He should be called for a travel right there. When he spins around and jumps he took a fourth step (4).
Legal play: 2 steps
[img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628060934110142.gif[/img]
That's the way I would logically count the steps. If somebody has another interpretation.[/QUOTE]
Question why does his real second step not count to you he clearly stops on a 1-2 then steps threw but you don't count his second step why again? Just asking for a simple explanation for some reason that other step he takes doesn't count for some imaginary reason?
He actually goes 1,2 step threw 3 but your just ignoring 2 like it does't exist
[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]great footwork right here
[img]http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/uYK4YoDyGP8sI4ShPv6jGRuc3.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
[QUOTE=gengiskhan]by studying MJ's game 1995-1998. MJ did stuff like this frequently which was very close to travel. But this one is travel.[/QUOTE]
I guess working out with Hakeem has nothing to do with it.
He probably watched some Michael Jordan tapes yea thats sounds logical :facepalm GTFO
[QUOTE=Fatal9]you know we can't have a footwork thread without this guy...
[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/r1yfiw.jpg[/IMG]
mobley goes weeeeeee[/QUOTE]
Dat was PERFECT! I mean :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
[QUOTE=wpdougie2180]He actually goes 1,2 step threw 3 but your just ignoring 2 like it does't exist[/QUOTE]His 1 is his pivot foot. Then what you consider a second step is a jab. If he wanted he could do 50 jabs while his pivot foot is still stationary. That would still be one step.
When he planted his right foot forward it's still not a step until he lifted his pivot foot. When he lifts his pivot, the "jab" automatically became his second step. That's when the rule book comes in and says you can lift your pivot but you have to shoot or pass before it comes back down. If you put your original pivot down, it becomes the third step.
[QUOTE=gengiskhan]by studying MJ's game 1995-1998. MJ did stuff like this frequently which was very close to travel. But this one is travel.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
Quit hanging off MJ's nuts, they're about to scrape the sidewalk.
[IMG]http://www.gifsoup.com/view5/2785402/kobe-falls-o.gif[/IMG]
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=millwad][IMG]http://www.gifsoup.com/view5/2785402/kobe-falls-o.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
LOL ... I almost forgot completely about that ... mimmicking MJ no less.
:oldlol:
Kobe stans win!
[QUOTE=millwad][IMG]http://www.gifsoup.com/view5/2785402/kobe-falls-o.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
notice the tongue coming out when Kobe is just about to fall.
Why would you further mimick MJ when the initial mimick didnt work. :facepalm
[QUOTE=Phong]Yeah technically you don't change pivot, you just travel.
Travel:
[img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/1106280538585913.gif[/img]
What he does is pick up his dribble and plant his pivot (1) as his first step. He pivots, then when he lifts his pivot foot, the non-pivot foot becomes the second step (2). So far according to the rule, everything is fine as long as he passes or shoot now.
Since he plants his original pivot back down with the ball still in his hands, he took his third step (3). He should be called for a travel right there. When he spins around and jumps he took a fourth step (4).
Legal play: 2 steps
[img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628060934110142.gif[/img]
That's the way I would logically count the steps. If somebody has another interpretation.[/QUOTE]In the NBA if you switch you pivot foot, it is a travel. That gif is a travel on the basis of a player's pivot foot being swtiched. You either have to jump of both feet after a move, or off your pivot foot you cant take another step. You are misreading that 'piont of emphasis' and your argument is nothing more than sophistry.
[QUOTE=ImmortalD24]In the NBA if you switch you pivot foot, it is a travel. That gif is a travel on the basis of a player's pivot foot being swtiched. You either have to jump of both feet after a move, or off your pivot foot you cant take another step. You are misreading that 'piont of emphasis' and your argument is nothing more than sophistry.[/QUOTE]
It is only possible to have one pivot foot.
[QUOTE=ImmortalD24]In the NBA if you switch you pivot foot, it is a travel. That gif is a travel on the basis of a player's pivot foot being swtiched. You either have to jump of both feet after a move, or off your pivot foot you cant take another step. You are misreading that 'piont of emphasis' and your argument is nothing more than sophistry.[/QUOTE]
Yea that Gif is a travel. If he leaped off 2 feet it wouldn't have been he lifts his pivot foot therefore it's a travel. I mean honestly it's no different really than taking 2 steps in motion and jumping off one leg, but once you have come to a stop, you can't lift that pivot foot.
[QUOTE=ImmortalD24]In the NBA if you switch you pivot foot, it is a travel. That gif is a travel on the basis of a player's pivot foot being swtiched. You either have to jump of both feet after a move, or off your pivot foot you cant take another step. You are misreading that 'piont of emphasis' and your argument is nothing more than sophistry.[/QUOTE]Show me one single reliable source that says it is a travel. 24 pages and nobody has been able to provide a single evidence; only some guys saying [I]"believe me it is a travel"[/I].
According to the rule book and multiple videos posted in the previous pages, this is a legal move. If you looked at the video where the "point of emphasis" was taken from, you would know there is no misreading anything. The video was made for officials, the play is explained step-by-step and considered legal.
[QUOTE=ImmortalD24]In the NBA if you switch you pivot foot, it is a travel. That gif is a travel on the basis of a player's pivot foot being swtiched. You either have to jump of both feet after a move, or off your pivot foot you cant take another step. You are misreading that 'piont of emphasis' and your argument is nothing more than sophistry.[/QUOTE]
No.
and
[quote]Yea that Gif is a travel. If he leaped off 2 feet it wouldn't have been he lifts his pivot foot therefore it's a travel. I mean honestly it's no different really than taking 2 steps in motion and jumping off one leg, but once you have come to a stop, you can't lift that pivot foot.[/quote]
No.
You can lift your pivot foot off the ground, but you can not place it back on the ground until you pass/shoot or lose the ball.
go to nba.com read the rules it's there, it was also quoted earlier on in this thread.
The refs make up w.e rules they want though.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuoiNst5_ag&feature=related[/url]
Lebron amazing footwork.I dont have the gif :oldlol:
[img]http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/06/28/110628060934110142.gif[/img]
From the NBA rule book Rule No. 4--Definitions, Section VIII--Pivot
A pivot takes place when a player, who is holding the ball, steps once or more than once in any direction with the same foot, with the other foot (pivot foot) in contact with the floor. Using the video, the pivot is marked as #1.
If the player wishes to dribble after a pivot, [B]the ball must be out of his hand before the pivot foot is raised off the floor.[/B] If the player raises his pivot off the floor, (which in the video he clearly raises #1 off the floor, as the jab step comes down marked as #2) he must pass or attempt a field goal before the foot is returned to the floor. If he fails to follow these guidelines, he has committed a traveling violation.
Notice in the video that the shot goes up before #1 returns to the floor. It doesn't matter if #2 is used as a jab step and is placed on the ground or if it gets jumped off of, or if #1and#2 are both jumped off of. As long as the ball is out of the players hands before the established pivot (#1) hits the floor again it is not a traveling violation.
This is a step though move, it is completely legal, and regardless if it's pulled off a reverse pivot or not, the mechanics are the same.
Phong is correct.
As for the confusion on the jump stop, a player drives to the basket, gathers the ball early, clearly jumps off one foot and lands simultaneously with both feet (jump stop). What are his options?
The player may jump to pass or shoot but is not allowed to pivot or “step through”.