[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I can't make sense of this post.[/QUOTE]
Your arguments are inconsistent and borderline contradictory and he's getting tired of it. That's what I got from that.
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[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I can't make sense of this post.[/QUOTE]
Your arguments are inconsistent and borderline contradictory and he's getting tired of it. That's what I got from that.
[QUOTE=moe94]Your arguments are inconsistent and borderline contradictory and he's getting tired of it. That's what I got from that.[/QUOTE]
How?
[QUOTE=Milbuck]Dirk is one of those guy's whose impact you just can't quantify. I'd love to have seen him dominate with the team that drafted him. He'd get a lot more respect around here.[/QUOTE]
He's a super hero here in Dallas...can't be more respected anywhere else than he already is here.
[QUOTE=kenny817]He's a super hero here in Dallas...can't be more respected anywhere else than he already is here.[/QUOTE]
When he'll finally retire in 2025, his fadeaway will make for the ugliest athlete statue of all time.
[QUOTE=veilside23]I would pick prime dirk..
but you know whats funny Dmavs41. When there is a player who is a better scorer than dirk you highlight other things he can do as oppose to kg who is not a ben wallace on scoring you failed to his greatness outside of scoring that dirk clearly has over KG. but here now you go stating that as an excuse again that dirk had the one of the worst second option in scoring but their defense even a 50 year old jason kidd played outstanding defense that helped them get the title you mention that but still you weigh things as OFFESE>> DEFENSE because you always say that dirk didnt have a Great 2nd option . Why is it that it sounds like its a workload for dirk if he was such a good scorer. AI didnt have a team mate that scored more than 15 ppg in his playoff run just so you know .[/QUOTE]
Again, I don't really follow, but I'm getting really sick and tired of the whole "defense" was the reason why the 11 Mavs won.
It simply wasn't. It was a below average defense both in the regular season and playoffs for a championship team.
I've gone over this time and time again. Was the defense really good and really important? Yes...just not nearly as good or as important as the offense. Also, Dirk made a positive impact defensively (which you seem to ignore)
Offense is more valuable than defense at the individual superstar level...that is what I have argued in the past. Team defense vs team offense? I'd lean towards defense actually...although it's based on circumstances and specific teams and years.
But again. People need to really stop the "defense" won it for the 11 Mavs kick.
The Mavs had a 112.9 offensive rating in the 11 playoffs. The next closest team was OKC at 109.5. Which is a pretty big gap between 1 and 2. Then the next best was the Lakers at 107.8....
Defense? Mavs had the 8th best playoff defense. Definitely worse than the top 4...and absolutely nothing special historically for a champion. In fact, most championship teams of like the last 25 years played better defense.
Give me Dirk anyday. He's a proven winner.
Durant lost in the finals against Lebron playing alongside Westbrook and Ibaka while Dirk took out the same Heat team with far lesser talent.
Why are people saying Dirk is a proven winner? He has only won one final series. Did you somehow forget Dirk's entire career before that? The lost to Golden State? The countless choke jobs?
Kevin Durant is only 25 years old and he put up better numbers in the finals then Dirk ever did. The only difference is that Lebron decided to actually show up in 2012 instead of the disappearing like in 2011. Dirk is lucky to have that ring. You can be sure if Lebron played like he did in 2012 in the 2011 finals Dirk would still be ringless.
[QUOTE=navy]Why are people saying Dirk is a proven winner? He has only won one final series. Did you somehow forget Dirk's entire career before that? The lost to Golden State? The countless choke jobs?
Kevin Durant is only 25 years old and he put up better numbers in the finals then Dirk ever did. The only difference is that Lebron decided to actually show up in 2012 instead of the disappearing like in 2011. Dirk is lucky to have that ring. You can be sure if Lebron played like he did in 2012 in the 2011 finals Dirk would still be ringless.[/QUOTE]
Repeat: Durant lost in the finals against Lebron playing alongside Westbrook and Ibaka aka Durant choked. The same team Dirk took apart with scrubs.
No one remembers MJ's losses in the first round and ECF against the bad boys. You only count the rings. So yes, Dirk is a proven winner.
[QUOTE=navy]Why are people saying Dirk is a proven winner? He has only won one final series. Did you somehow forget Dirk's entire career before that? The lost to Golden State? The countless choke jobs?
Kevin Durant is only 25 years old and he put up better numbers in the finals then Dirk ever did. The only difference is that Lebron decided to actually show up in 2012 instead of the disappearing like in 2011. Dirk is lucky to have that ring. You can be sure if Lebron played like he did in 2012 in the 2011 finals Dirk would still be ringless.[/QUOTE]
could you please list the countless choke jobs. please. list the countless choke jobs outside of the 07 series.
a series in which Dirk was hiding an injury, his father was having serious surgery during the series, against his old head coach, against a nightmare matchup....with Avery Johnson literally crumbling before even game 1.
please list those countless choke jobs...
Love doing this to the morons...we'll be waiting. You are going to have to get very creative...
[QUOTE=GoranDragon]Repeat: Durant lost in the finals against Lebron playing alongside Westbrook and Ibaka aka Durant choked. The same team Dirk took apart with scrubs.
No one remembers MJ's losses in the first round and ECF against the bad boys. You only count the rings. So yes, Dirk is a proven winner.[/QUOTE]
Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in the Finals. If Dirk won with scrubs then what did the Heat have outside of Wade?
[QUOTE=navy]Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in the Finals. If Dirk won with scrubs then what did the Heat have outside of Wade?[/QUOTE]
list the countless choke jobs please...
[QUOTE=navy]Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in the Finals. If Dirk won with scrubs then [B]what did the Heat have outside of Wade[/B]?[/QUOTE]
Tell me you're not implying the Heat isn't stacked as sh1t.:eek:
If I recall, Dallas was the underdog of that series while people were 50/50 on Durant vs Lebron. We all know what happened, Dirk overcame the odds and Durant fall short.
So prime Dirk vs current Durant isn't even an argument, prime Dirk would murk prime Durant even.
[QUOTE=GoranDragon]Tell me you're not implying the Heat isn't stacked as sh1t.:eek:
If I recall, Dallas was the underdog of that series while people were 50/50 on Durant vs Lebron. We all know what happened, Dirk overcame the odds and Durant fall short.
So prime Dirk vs current Durant isn't even an argument, prime Dirk would murk prime Durant even.[/QUOTE]
No. Use context clues and your head. You claimed Dirk won the finals playing with scrubs. If Jason Terry is a scrub then Lebron was worse then a scrub in that series because Jason Terry outplayed Lebron.
Dirk's only ring came from the biggest chokejob from in modern history. That is not a proven winner. He has only won once. Durant had better numbers in the finals then Dirk did, the only difference is Lebron actually showed up for that one.
and lol at you bringing up coaches and family to justify that choke job. :facepalm
Remember the 2006 finals when everyone was saying it was rigged to make the Heat win? You know what was funny about that series? The paid refs gave dirk a bailout call in game 3 and go up 3-0. And he choked the tying freethrow.
0:09 Dallas full timeout
0:03 95-97 Udonis Haslem shooting foul (Dirk Nowitzki draws the foul)
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 96-97
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki misses free throw 2 of 2 96-97
A 90% freethrow shooter? :biggums:
[QUOTE=navy]No. Use context clues and your head. You claimed Dirk won the finals playing with scrubs. If Jason Terry is a scrub then Lebron was worse then a scrub in that series because Jason Terry outplayed Lebron.
Dirk's only ring came from the biggest chokejob from in modern history. That is not a proven winner. He has only won once. Durant had better numbers in the finals then Dirk did, the only difference is Lebron actually showed up for that one.
and lol at you bringing up coaches and family to justify that choke job. :facepalm
Remember the 2006 finals when everyone was saying it was rigged to make the Heat win? You know what was funny about that series? The paid refs gave dirk a bailout call in game 3 and go up 3-0. And he choked the tying freethrow.
0:09 Dallas full timeout
0:03 95-97 Udonis Haslem shooting foul (Dirk Nowitzki draws the foul)
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 96-97
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki misses free throw 2 of 2 96-97
A 90% freethrow shooter? :biggums:[/QUOTE]
So missing a free throw is a countless choke job? You could do the same for every single player in history.
Family? Yes...that series is a total anomaly...and there were circumstances both on and off the court that led to it. None of that would matter if Dirk had played like that multiple times in his career. But he didn't...it was a total fluke. He faced his old coach and a team that played a style horrible for the 07 Mavs, Avery Johnson lost his mind, Dirk was not himself the last month of the year, and he was worried he might lose his father during the ****ing series...LOL. Yea...lets ignore all that and pretend like it was just some normal series. Not to mention how much better the Warriors were than their actual record as well.
But that is besides the point. Where are the countless choke jobs? Don't run and hide...
Dirk missed the free throw in that game...yet he made a shot over Shaq in game 5 with 9 seconds left to go up 1. Played great in game 6 while it was Terry that choked.
And it's really hard to call anything in 06 negative because the Mavs never should have gotten out of the 2nd round. They were road dogs playing the Spurs at the height of their powers. So why not bring that up? That Dirk had 37/15 in a road game 7 in SA and made the game saving 3 point play to send the game to OT.
So...so far we have. Dirk missing a ft in the finals in 06...a year in which he was a road underdog to get out of the 2nd round. And the 07 series (which was awful for sure) under anomaly type circumstances.
You really consider that countless? LOL
You just bought into the BS narrative about Dirk. Did you know that the Mavs have actually over-achieved in the playoffs more often than underachieving? That the only two times the Mavs didn't advance farther in the playoffs than expected was 07 and 10. And in 10 they lost to a Spurs team absolutely no worse than the Mavs in any way...a series in which Dirk averaged 27/8/3 64.3% TS. Every other year the Mavs either upset a team to advance farther than they should have...or lost as an underdog.
On your criteria, a guy like Larry Bird is an absolute joke...
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So missing a free throw is a countless choke job? You could do the same for every single player in history.
Family? Yes...that series is a total anomaly...and there were circumstances both on and off the court that led to it.
Dirk missed the free throw in that game...yet he made a shot over Shaq in game 5 with 9 seconds left to go up 1. Played great in game 6 while it was Terry that choked.
And it's really hard to call anything in 06 negative because the Mavs never should have gotten out of the 2nd round. They were road dogs playing the Spurs at the height of their powers. So why not bring that up? That Dirk had 37/15 in a road game 7 in SA and made the game saving 3 point play to send the game to OT.
So...so far we have. Dirk missing a ft in the finals in 06...a year in which he was a road underdog to get out of the 2nd round. And the 07 series (which was awful for sure) under anomaly type circumstances.
You really consider that countless? LOL[/QUOTE]
Did the Spurs choke game 6 of the 2013 finals? Hell yes.
Didnt Dirk foul Wade late in Game 5? It was a legitimate call as well. As i know people will say that series was rigged.
Ill concede on the "countless' adjective. But to sit here any say Dirk is a proven winner after 1 win out of 10ish playoffs appearance is dumb.
[QUOTE=navy]Did the Spurs choke game 6 of the 2013 finals? Hell yes.
Didnt Dirk foul Wade late in Game 5? It was a legitimate call as well. As i know people will say that series was rigged.
Ill concede on the "countless' adjective. But to sit here any say Dirk is a proven winner after 1 win out of 10ish playoffs appearance is dumb.[/QUOTE]
I was addressing your "countless"...which you have rightfully retreated from because you talked out of your ass...LOL
Yes, Wade was fouled and I don't think the series was rigged. I think it was just horrible reffing and terrible rules. Wade was fouled...after he ran over half the team and was impossible to guard given the joke rules.
Proven winner? Well, I'd say yes. 11 straight 50 win seasons (only Russell, Magic/Kareem, and Duncan have done this) with totally different coaches and rosters. Had his team on a 50 win pace last year when he played. Has his team on a similar pace this year. Take a look at what Kevin Love is doing in his prime with a roster that is actually probably slightly better than the current Mavs. Yes...Dirk is a winner...his impact goes beyond his already great numbers...and his ability to consistently win with all different kinds of rosters is evidence of that.
Over-achieved more in the playoffs than his teams under-achieved.
One of the best elimination game players ever. Undefeated in game 7's (5-0)
Made the finals twice and the WCF three times. Only team other than the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and Duncan Spurs to make the finals from 99 through 11.
Won a title without an all-star or all-nba player (very rare historically)
One of the best win percentages of his era despite all the other star players playing with way more help other than KG.
How does that not add up to being a "winner"??????
bump, was going to at the end of the season but forgot about it.
shit is much more interesting after kd's phenomenal season, but his underwhelming performance sorta sticks out. kd still has the chance to turn it around doe, especially with game 4 up in 30 min.