Russell to LeBron: "Thank you for leaving me off your Mt. Rushmore."

[QUOTE=Odinn]I started a thread several hours ago;

[B]fpliii[/B] and [B]CavaliersFTW[/B], I respect you guys. But I have to say it, you're just too sensitive in this particular thread.

Tho, I saw some posts of Pointguard via quotes and it's saddening that he just keeps BSing around...[/QUOTE]
I know I'm probably a bit sensitive about this thread, I've tried to avoid Russell threads in particular, but I don't like faulty or weak arguments being made. I [I]do think[/I] there are definitely legitimate anti-Russell arguments to be made, but most people in this thread are trolling, and taking pride in celebrating ignorance.

Just to clarify though, I don't have an issue with LeBron. I do on the other hand take issue with the reaction on this board and other similar forums, piling on Russell and such.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Good one fplii, you made the great point. Have to leave work now. I just moved Russell into my four spot and he might be still climbing.[/QUOTE]
lol I'm not trying to convince you to move him (apologies if it came off that way), I just wanted to try and see where you're coming from. I don't have a GOAT list personally and don't mind where people are coming from so long as they're informed (which you seem to be). Good talk though.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]To say somebody is GOAT, better than Jordan without the ball in his hand is absurd.

Name me an intangible we should imagine Jordan didn't have that Russell did?


Tell me something he did that no other player didn't do. Don't tell me what his team did.

We can't assume to fill in the gaps. That's all I'm saying. In every other sport the greats are the guys who mastered the tool they work with. In life its the same way. Please show me guys who are the best in their sport without the tool they work with and I will say you are right. Its not hard. I will end the conversation. If you can't then ask yourself why are you so gullible for Russell.[/QUOTE]

I never said Russell was better than MJ. So total strawman there...

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Honestly...I can't remember the last time I saw a list that didn't have Russell in the top 5 all time. I don't know where Kobe and Lebron are getting this notion of for sure Magic/Bird in the top 4 either. MJ for sure. Russell for sure. And then personally it's Magic next for me. Then either Wilt/Duncan/Kareem in any order for me...usually you see Kareem in there.

How awkward is it gonna be if LBJ wins a FMVP this year?

[QUOTE=chazzy]:facepalm He's arguably the best defensive player of all time. Piece of a puzzle?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because YOU took the time to study film and analyze his defense, right? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=TylerOO]How awkward is it gonna be if LBJ wins a FMVP this year?[/QUOTE]
Depends if Bill is still alive by that time..........



That might be a little tasteless.

too much retard

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I never said Russell was better than MJ. So total strawman there...

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

[B]Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact. [/B]

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Honestly...I can't remember the last time I saw a list that didn't have Russell in the top 5 all time. I don't know where Kobe and Lebron are getting this notion of for sure Magic/Bird in the top 4 either. MJ for sure. Russell for sure. And then personally it's Magic next for me. Then either Wilt/Duncan/Kareem in any order for me...usually you see Kareem in there.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and all evidence points to Tyler Hansbrough being an all time great when he plays against weak competition. Turns out, level of competition makes a really big difference. You can appear really good in one ecosystem, but not so good when you enter another.

get raped, Lebron James.

waiting for pauk's essay

[QUOTE=plowking]Whenever Lebron is mentioned you end up looking stupid and more butthurt than Russell. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

yet whenever lebron is shat on, you're there to back him up with ur life - you're equally bad.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact. [/quote]
:lol Its actually [B]extremely very[/B] broad. I'm not just saying shooting, handling, passing - I'm saying creativity, resourcefulness, and defensive adjustments.
[quote]
Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact. [/quote]

We are talking Russell, you are seriously not thinking that is something not being considered. But once again, he may not be. Nate Thurmond was the better one on one defender and Aurabach used half time on the NBA to lie to people and say Russell was the only player that blocked shots and kept it in play.
[quote]
We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, [B]narrow definition of skill[/B] (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact. [/quote]

Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.

[QUOTE=Odinn]I started a thread several hours ago;

[B]fpliii[/B] and [B]CavaliersFTW[/B], I respect you guys. But I have to say it, you're just too sensitive in this particular thread.

Tho, I saw some posts of Pointguard via quotes and it's saddening that he just keeps BSing around...[/QUOTE]
You greatly underestimate your friends. I can't BS around with them. They're smart and have tenacity. Its just that with Russell he's hard to measure, prove and establish his influence. The only saddening thing is that you aren't brave enough to say your piece. I know it, you know it, everybody else is beginning to know it.

[QUOTE=Pointguard] Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time.[B] Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand?[/B] The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.[/QUOTE]

Defensive football players?

Pointguard,

Observe how Oscar Robertson who is on the short list of the most fundamentally sound and skilled players of all time describes what qualifies as basketball skills in his autobiography,

[I]"Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all your energy too early or give away all your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; [B][U]knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm[/U][/B]; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man to man defense while also knowing where the ball is - those are skills."[/I]

[URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6IXDF80WEC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=%22Knowing+how+to+rub+off+a+defender+when+you+use+a+pick%22&source=bl&ots=7sKjOXV87U&sig=OGdq5mNPoIv9GZVzpWmKjJRUgQk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8OcCU9XIIcnQ0wHWv4GwDg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Knowing%20how%20to%20rub%20off%20a%20defender%20when%20you%20use%20a%20pick%22&f=false"]Link[/URL]

The bold part is significant because it involves having great skill with the main piece of equipment in a player's hand. In light of that take into consideration the following quotes regarding Russell's passing skills:

[LEFT]"You couldn't begin to count the ways we missed him. People think about him in terms of defense and rebounding, but he had been the key to our offense. [B]He made the best pass more than anyone I have ever played with.[/B] That mattered to people like Nelson, Howell, Siefried, Sanders, and myself. None of us were one on one players...Russell made us better offensive players. [B]His ability as a passer[/B], pick- setter, and general surmiser of offense has always been over looked."[/LEFT]

[I]Hondo: Celtic Man in Motion[/I]

[I]

Those 5' 10" white guys tho

[QUOTE=JamiesChrist]Those 5' 6" white guys tho[/QUOTE]
Fixed.

Jlip if you seen me post here I never sell skills short. Kidd could dominate a game without scoring because of his skill of knowing his players and their timing. And Russell was one of the better passing bigmen. I give it to him. When I saw the Youtube clips of him three years ago he wasn't playing like Kidd or could be confused with being effective like Kidd. His team did indeed play more organized defense and passed better than their opponents. I recall that. I do recall opponents sometimes being over cautious of where Russell was.

This where I say Fpliii was good at getting at. Russell was perhaps closer to being ubiquitous on the court as much as anybody. His presence was all over even when he wasn't there - like Mutombo in his prime. I would rather Russell have the ball than him doing back doors on my team. So he, and his ghost, really did play a 40 minute game (as I notice West and Oscar didn't play in fear of his presence - the superstars all probably played their game). Jordan was his equal because his speed and quickness was crazy on defense and if you made a mistake it was over. Magic controlled the game better than anybody, pace and having teams playing Laker ball without knowing it, so those three were operating beyond what was easily visible and had tentacles well beyond what was plain... and into what was psychologically working on opponents.

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Defensive football players?[/QUOTE]
Football is the most compartmentalized game I can think of? Quarterbacks, runningbacks and receivers get most of the glory though.

[QUOTE=TiagoSimoes]Damm[/QUOTE]

Indeed.

I don't mind Russell saying that because I've always found that the best of the best have an insane amount of competitiveness. Like real competitiveness that I can't explain.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Jlip if you seen me post here I never sell skills short. Kidd could dominate a game without scoring because of his skill of knowing his players and their timing. And Russell was one of the better passing bigmen. I give it to him. When I saw the Youtube clips of him three years ago he wasn't playing like Kidd or could be confused with being effective like Kidd. His team did indeed play more organized defense and passed better than their opponents. I recall that. I do recall opponents sometimes being over cautious of where Russell was.

This where I say Fpliii was good at getting at. Russell was perhaps closer to being ubiquitous on the court as much as anybody. His presence was all over even when he wasn't there - like Mutombo in his prime. I would rather Russell have the ball than him doing back doors on my team. So he, and his ghost, really did play a 40 minute game (as I notice West and Oscar didn't play in fear of his presence - the superstars all probably played their game). Jordan was his equal because his speed and quickness was crazy on defense and if you made a mistake it was over. Magic controlled the game better than anybody, pace and having teams playing Laker ball without knowing it, [B]so those three were operating beyond what was easily visible and had tentacles well beyond what was plain... and into what was psychologically working on opponents[/B].[/QUOTE]
Interesting theory (regarding ghosts and omnipresence on the court).

That's truly terrifying to imagine (especially as an opponent). Who else do you think could qualify? I'd imagine it'd have to be a very short list, or else it wouldn't be as remarkable.

LMAO this clown including Oscar. Who wants to root for losers unless youre a loser yourself. fcking beta:lol

Way to go Russell Westbrook. :bowdown:

[QUOTE=riseagainst]Can't believe Lebron put Oscar on the Mount Rushmore thing, that guy is a bonafide empty stat padder. I guess Lebron aspires to be that. :confusedshrug:

The Mount Rushmore should be:
The Greatest Player
The Greatest Rivalry in the greatest era (80s) that revitalized the NBA to new heights
The Greatest Winner[/QUOTE]



So
Greatest Player--Wilt
80s Rivalry-Bird,Magic
Greatest Winner--Russell


so

Wilt,Bill Russell,Larry Bird,Magic Johnson

so what about Kareem?Jordan?

Greatest Winner-Russell
Greatest Player--Wilt
Longest Stretch of Dominance and good to great stats,longevity---Kareem
Greatest Guard,Great Stretch of o and d,Most Famous Player and Huge Winner,2nd in stats----Jordan
GOAT PG,Triple Double Machine----Oscar
Bird,Magic 80s Dominance and stretch if greatness,revitalized the league----Bird,Magic


so you have

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan,Oscar,Bird,Magic

Thats 7 possible GOAT,MT RUSHMORE Types

AND that's NOT INCLUDING
Shaq,Duncan,Thurmond

[QUOTE=fpliii]Interesting theory (regarding ghosts and omnipresence on the court).

That's truly terrifying to imagine (especially as an opponent). Who else do you think could qualify? I'd imagine it'd have to be a very short list, or else it wouldn't be as remarkable.[/QUOTE]
I said he really did play 40mins a game when I mean to say he was present in opponents head for 40mins a game.

My cornerstone historic art piece would be

Magic (To Give is to Receive) 80's PG
Jordan (Flight) 90's, SG
Wilt (Mythology) 60's, Center
Russell (To be or not to be - Competition)50's PF
Bird (Armed and Dangerous )80's SF.

Was really hoping bran would respond with ..."Russell played in weak era"..

or[QUOTE] "Originally Posted by JamiesChrist
Those 5' 6" white guys tho"[/QUOTE]

Or even..."I could win 11 Rangz too if there was only 7 teams."





disappointing.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I never said Russell was better than MJ. So total strawman there...

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Honestly...I can't remember the last time I saw a list that didn't have Russell in the top 5 all time. I don't know where Kobe and Lebron are getting this notion of for sure Magic/Bird in the top 4 either. MJ for sure. Russell for sure. And then personally it's Magic next for me. Then either Wilt/Duncan/Kareem in any order for me...usually you see Kareem in there.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't Argue with someone who thinks Hakeem is better then Magic. Hakeem was better then Magic, Magic had the better career/teammates/Organization Facts.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol Its actually [B]extremely very[/B] broad. I'm not just saying shooting, handling, passing - I'm saying creativity, resourcefulness, and defensive adjustments.


We are talking Russell, you are seriously not thinking that is something not being considered. But once again, he may not be. Nate Thurmond was the better one on one defender and Aurabach used half time on the NBA to lie to people and say Russell was the only player that blocked shots and kept it in play.


Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.[/QUOTE]
:applause: exactly which is why I rarely discuss Russell. Anytime you mention his offensive flaws... They bring up some intangibles BS and his titles. His titles were team efforts in a league just starting. He not winning 11 chips in the modern era with new rules ,trades , caps, more teams etc...

[QUOTE=fos]Russell is butthurt... and doesn't he mean "WE" won, since it's a team game and all. He's not a top 10 player all-time, let alone a top 4.[/QUOTE]


He is the GOAT. What are you 12 years old?

why these old ni[COLOR="Black"]g[/COLOR]gas always act like b[COLOR="Black"]i[/COLOR]tches whenever LeBron say something :coleman:

[QUOTE=Pointguard]That is just so disrespectful to the game. So basketball is the only sport where you don't need skill to be the best? One of the few things on the planet you don't need skill to excel in. You are only insulting the game when you say something like that. It says that anybody can come along and be the best in the game. You work on your craft you become better at it. The distance between two players usually isn't great at all as any ten different fans will usually have ten different top tens. But if one player is very skilled, and the other isn't, is there every really a conversation.

Whatever you take for granted you pay for it. And Russell rested on his laurels. MJ worked at his game tirelessly. And for every natural advantage you name me that Russell has I will most definitely name you two that Jordan has. Lets say Jordan didn't have to do develop skills. Did it make him better or worse? Every player could use it in every sport or endeavor in life.[/QUOTE]


You're on the edge of lunacy. Nobody worked harder than Russell. Lmao homer.

[QUOTE=Big#50]Shaq/Duncan
MJ
KAJ
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron
Kobe
Magic
Wilt

Russell not in my top ten.[/QUOTE]

Then again, you don't matter.

[QUOTE=MichaelCorleone]Russell is bitter.[/QUOTE]
Can't put this any other way. Lefraud went out of his way to dis Russell with the # 6 thing, now goes out of his way on this matter. So Russell spanks him and all you 12-18 year olds get your panties in a wad. 11 pro rings, 1 Olympic ring and 2 college rings = GOAT.

[QUOTE=tpols]How does one pattern their game off Bill Russell? Hes a defensive and rebounding beast, master of intangibles and team play. He wasnt flash..Pointguard, by your definition of greatness, Allen Iverson is a top 5 GOAT candidate :oldlol:


Kids want to play like whats in style.. what looks cool. Crossovers, dunks, fadeaways.. thats why Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe etc. are the ones you see kids copying and trying to be like.

Who patterns their game off of a guy like Russell or Rodman? Thats just hard work lol.. no oohing and ahhing over it but its what wins. Such a arbitrary and unimportant way of judging something. Has absolutely nothing to do with the impact they had.[/QUOTE]

Just for kicks how does everybody forget Wes Unseld? Box out, rebound and outlet. He made a career of it, yet it was just part of Russells' game. You all sell him short and you never saw him play. How is that?

:roll:

LeBron is a good one to talk about the future of the year. The fact is that the two sides have to go out with the new version and the other side is the most important.

[QUOTE=Im so nba'd out][IMG]http://www.recaption.com/uploads/170474fe838dd1a9ad.jpg[/IMG]


matter fact i call flat out bull shit on this story........[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=IllegalD]Bill Russell to LeBron James during the pre-game (per Craig Sager):

[I]"Thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. Im glad you did. Basketball is a team game. Its not for individual honors. I won back-to-back state championships in highschool. Back-to-back NCAA championships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league. An NBA championship my last year. 9 in between. And that, Mr. James, is etched in stone."[/I]

:applause:

:bowdown:[/QUOTE]

Damn. Russell doesn't even want to be respected by Bran; takes it as a slight if he is.

:roll: