How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE=999Guy;14880496]Duncan stunted Manu Gibobili’s game for years, how in the hell is he a better offensive fit than LeBron. Duncan is dumber and less skilled than LeBron offensively across the board.[/QUOTE]

Duncan stunted his game for years? Can you explain? I don't quite remember it that way and given the Pop system, I'm not sure how that would even be the case.

Obviously Duncan is less skilled than LeBron offensively, I never debated that.

[QUOTE]Duncan’s defense otoh, half the reason he’s even a legend, actually would impact nearly every team the same way across the board. But that was mostly a 5 year run from 99 - 04, his health and motor was hit it miss after that come playoff time.[/QUOTE]

Point being, Duncan could be a dynamic offensive player if he wanted to, simply because his post game was so good. But even when the focus shifted to running the offense through the perimeter and opening up the floor for shooters, it yielded just as good results.

Add his defensive ability and it solidifies a solid case for him being easier to build around IMO.

[QUOTE=tpols;14880505]Wade did a lead a team to a title in 2006... the calls were whack giving him a 100 FTs in one series which was a modern day record but peak Wade was 30/6/6 MVP type guy on a different level... but like you said Reggie lasted longer, was even more efficient in a tougher era, and he played with way less help. People stay sleeping on Reggie Miller. He was the GOAT shooter before Curry hopped on the scene and as it turns out shooting a basketball extremely well matters a lot in basketball.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I'm okay with people ranking Wade ahead of Miller. Wade was the best player in 06 I don't know if I would credit him as the leader the team had five all-star vets (Walker, Williams, O'Neal, Payton, and Mourning). Reggie was to me a better elevator of lower talent guys, and I do think he's the best shooter of the shooting gaurds. But both guys are within three or four spots of each other. And Kobe was better and more successful than both of them...even though Reggie was a better shooter and Wade the better teammate.

[QUOTE=tpols;14880474]Reggie was a better offensive player tbh over their primes of which Millers was like twice as long. He's a far better shooter overall and more efficient in the playoffs in a defensive climate where games were uglier and great efficiency like a 120 ORTG was very hard to come by.

Peak Wade was obviously better but what Reggie did with those Pacers teams leading them through the playoffs every year and his best ever teammates being Rik Smits and Jalen Rose? I don't think Wade does any better.[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that Reggie was considered a superstar also, just like Wade was referred to?

[QUOTE=tpols;14880490]That completely pales in what Wade had to work with playing with Shaq who was 2nd in MVP voting in their 1st year together and peak / prime Lebron Big 3 Heat. I'm not saying Rose and Smits weren't good but it's a fact Wade had far more help in his career than Reggie did and he played in a more offensive friendly era post 2005 rule changes. Reggies overall 24 ppg playoff average from 1990 to 2002 would be more like 27 or 28 ppg in the late 2000s and 30+ppg today where teams drop like 130 points per game instead of the ugly low scoring playoff games of the 90s.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=John8204;14880502]Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.[/QUOTE]

I think you guys are underrating the Pacers' cast tbh. Indy was top 10 in ORTG every year from 1989-2000 with the exception of two years. In 1999 and 2000, they were ranked #1. That didn't come on the back of Reggie alone. In fact, I can't really think of any team that had 12 years of producing a top 10 (and sometimes top 5) offense for 90% of the years where it boiled down to just 1 guy.

By 1994, Smits had become an integral part of that offense. In fact, his FGA usually rivaled Reggie's, but during the mid 90s, Smits was actually their 1st option sometimes:

'94 Smits: 11.8 FGA
'94 Reggie: 13.2 FGA

'95 Smits: 13.6 FGA
'95 Reggie: 13.5 FGA

'96 Smits: 14.2 FGA
'96 Reggie: 14.0 FGA

'97 Smits: 14.1 FGA
'97 Reggie: 15.4 FGA

'98 Smits: 14.2 FGA
'98 Reggie: 13.3 FGA

2000 Rose averaged 15.0 FGA to Reggie's 12.9.

Shaq was an 18/10 player in the playoffs of '06. That isn't that far removed from what Smits was giving. I remember Smits in those days, he was excellent in the post with an excellent mid-range game. He frustrated the hell out of the Knicks and Magic.

Btw, Miami was 7th in ORTG in 2006 and 11th out of 16 teams in the playoffs. I'm not minimizing Wade's cast, but doing so with the Pacers would be unfair as well.

Kobe is ranked anywhere between 6-8 (along side with Shaq and Duncan)

Lebron is anywhere between 9-13

12th

Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years was Reggie a top 10 player in the league? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14880894]Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years [B]was Reggie a top 10 player in the league[/B]? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.[/QUOTE]

Well Wade is being supported by someone who can't seem to make a top ten list of SG's. I have Reggie in the top ten for the 90's...here's a list that you aren't going to do...

1. MJ, 2. Hakeem, 3. Stockton, 4. Shaq 5. Barkley, 6.Robinson, 7. Malone, 8. Pippen, 9. Reggie 10. Ewing
1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4 Dirk, 5 KG, 6 Iverson, 7. Kidd, 8. Wade 9. Pierce 10. Nash

I don't know if you want to call Shaq a 90's or 00's player but I have Wade and Reggie at basically the same spot.

I have him top 10, but if you're talking like just sheer talent level/skill level, I think he's honestly probably top 3-4. He's the second best scorer in the history of the game I think, Jordan would be 1, he's 2. In terms of competiveness, I think he's one of the top 3-4 as well, he was something else.

For people who slight him and put him out of their top 10 that fine, but I think those people even know, if there was some kind of hypothetical basketball nirvana where all the best players were put into a gym in their peak/prime and you told Kobe "hey you're not even one of the 10 best players here" that crazy mother****er would go on a rampage and probably light up almost all the players that are supposedly "better" than him to prove a point.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14881028]I have him top 10, but if you're talking like just sheer talent level/skill level, I think he's honestly probably top 3-4. He's the second best scorer in the history of the game I think, Jordan would be 1, he's 2. [/QUOTE]

Why?

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14881028]For people who slight him and put him out of their top 10 that fine, but I think those people even know, if there was some kind of hypothetical basketball nirvana where all the best players were put into a gym in their peak/prime and you told Kobe "hey you're not even one of the 10 best players here" that crazy mother****er would go on a rampage and probably light up almost all the players that are supposedly "better" than him to prove a point. [/QUOTE]

This is some made up fantasy in your head.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14880894]Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years was Reggie a top 10 player in the league? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide one post that says as overall players Reggie > Wade? I haven't seen one yet.

The media for some reason didn't like Reggie. He was kind of villain type guy. His game wasn't sexy, he didn't have any athleticism, and he was kind of skinny and ugly but what he did on the court was extremely effective. Leading those Pacer teams to the playoffs every year and a few deep runs is impressive given the lack of star power talent he had.

Kobe and Wade got to play with Shaq and Lebron. Reggie got Jalen Rose and Rik Smits. Pretty huge difference.

If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14881245]If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.[/QUOTE]
People would respect him more as a great scorer had he gotten similar scores or points on lesser shots, not the way he did it his usual way. But because he believed that is shows him off to be 'hardworking', that's what happened. At the expense of being a team player tho, hence why it infuriated his coach and many of his teammates bt.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14881245]If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

These are interesting points. I'm curious as to how this differs from say, Hakeem? Kobe learned his footwork from Hakeem, which elevated his game. Hakeem during his peak years saw consistent doubles or triples, but he was not one who really forced a shot. In fact, if you recall the '96 series against Seattle, their consistent triple teaming him was what resulted in a poor series.

With Kobe, he would get trapped sometimes on one on ones and still force it. So I think there's a lot to be said about that given the results (sometimes inefficiency and less than desirable results in the clutch).

I do mostly agree with him as a scorer but is he really ahead of KD? Granted, KD's numbers are inflated due to this era, but I think one could make an argument that he's ahead of Kobe in that regard.

Great point with regards to the combination of Offense+Defense+5/7 Championships not equaling top 10. It doesn't really make sense in that regard.

The only problem with that is the other guys in the top 10 are similar in that respect with the exception of maybe Magic. Even Bird was All-Defensive selected 3x in his first 5 years before being moved to the SF position where he became an elite help defender.

I wouldn't be mad at anyone who ranks Kobe top 10, but I think he's just outside of it.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14881628]

I do mostly agree with him as a scorer but is he really ahead of KD? Granted, KD's numbers are inflated due to this era, but I think one could make an argument that he's ahead of Kobe in that regard.

[/QUOTE]

Kobe has more in his bag, especially once he added a post-game, on top of more counters based on what the defender was doing. Durant being a 7 foot sniper is as simple as a crossover or maybe a double crossover and he'll just rise up and rip it. Nobody outside of Giannis or now Wemby has the size/athleticism/mobility to really challenge his shot. Durant is obviously a better pure shooter, and took better shots( aided by the aforementioned traits). Could be bothered more by physicality than Kobe( mind you Kobe had his struggled with physical defense too, especially in some of his finals). I never saw KD as having much of a 'gunner' mindset given his scoring prowess, he generally seems to stay in pocket in terms of shot attempts( career high 37). I wouldn't mind seeing a situation where he just went fukkit and got up 40-45 shots and he was having a great shooting night. Out of all the scorers nowadays he's the most notable person to have not gone for 70 yet ( and Steph I suppose).

[QUOTE=John8204;14880936]Well Wade is being supported by someone who can't seem to make a top ten list of SG's. I have Reggie in the top ten for the 90's...here's a list that you aren't going to do...

1. MJ, 2. Hakeem, 3. Stockton, 4. Shaq 5. Barkley, 6.Robinson, 7. Malone, 8. Pippen, 9. Reggie 10. Ewing
1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4 Dirk, 5 KG, 6 Iverson, 7. Kidd, 8. Wade 9. Pierce 10. Nash

[/QUOTE]

No way in hell is Reggie ahead of Ewing. Reggie did one thing and one thing only...shoot, and it's not like he scored alot either. He didn't play D, he didn't get assists, he couldn't rebound, didn't get steals nor block shots. All the things DWade could do. It's foolishness to think Miller>DWade.

BTW, Stockton ahead of Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, Malone is just trolling.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14881641]Kobe has more in his bag, especially once he added a post-game, on top of more counters based on what the defender was doing. Durant being a 7 foot sniper is as simple as a crossover or maybe a double crossover and he'll just rise up and rip it. Nobody outside of Giannis or now Wemby has the size/athleticism/mobility to really challenge his shot. Durant is obviously a better pure shooter, and took better shots( aided by the aforementioned traits). Could be bothered more by physicality than Kobe( mind you Kobe had his struggled with physical defense too, especially in some of his finals). I never saw KD as having much of a 'gunner' mindset given his scoring prowess, he generally seems to stay in pocket in terms of shot attempts( career high 37). I wouldn't mind seeing a situation where he just went fukkit and got up 40-45 shots and he was having a great shooting night. Out of all the scorers nowadays he's the most notable person to have not gone for 70 yet ( and Steph I suppose).[/QUOTE]

KD never even had 60 I think...

[QUOTE=dankok8;14881665]KD never even had 60 I think...[/QUOTE]

You're right, I thought he did but he got 55 against the Hawks on April 2, 2022.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14881667]You're right, I thought he did but he got 55 against the Hawks on April 2, 2022.[/QUOTE]

Yea he can get 30 effortlessly but he isn't one of those players to often explode for a lot. Has relatively few 40+ and 50+ games. Kareem was similar.

.
[B]Kobe was superior prime vs prime since Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times when Kobe was still in his prime:[/B]


[indent]08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

[SIZE=1][I]* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo[/I][/SIZE][/indent]

[QUOTE=3ba11;14881676].
[B]Kobe was superior prime vs prime since Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times when Kobe was still in his prime:[/B]


[indent]08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

[SIZE=1][I]* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo[/I][/SIZE][/indent][/QUOTE]
And these are cherry-picked stats, i assume?

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;14881658]No way in hell is Reggie ahead of Ewing. Reggie did one thing and one thing only...shoot, and it's not like he scored alot either. He didn't play D, he didn't get assists, he couldn't rebound, didn't get steals nor block shots. All the things DWade could do. It's foolishness to think Miller>DWade.

BTW, [B]Stockton ahead of Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, Malone is just trolling.[/B][/QUOTE]

John Stockton is the best pure PG of all-time...this is in my opinion. You bring up all the things Ewing did and yet you don't respect Stockton. A guy who played his role as the third or fourth option when it came to scoring and elevated his teammates...not just Karl Malone but also Hornadek, Jeff Malone, and Thurl Bailey. The man was also a steals machine which means getting extra possessions which helps your team win. We talk about guards defensive based on media awards but Stockton's analytics are insane. He's number 3 all time when it comes to VORP behind Jordan and Lebron.

Reggie and Ewing are close in my eyes but I would give Reggie the edge. I agree with you that Ewing had more tools to win, and in the regular season Patrick was significantly better. However head to head in the playoffs Reggie has the better record and he's the better shooter.

Duncan stunted Manus growth?

I've heard it all now....

[QUOTE=Carbine;14881744]Duncan stunted Manus growth?

I've heard it all now....[/QUOTE]

Yea, first I'm hearing of this myself. Anyone who watched the 2005 playoffs would vehemently disagree. And that was just Manu's third year in the league.

[QUOTE=John8204;14881697]
Reggie and Ewing are close in my eyes but I would give Reggie the edge. I agree with you that Ewing had more tools to win, and in the regular season Patrick was significantly better. However head to head in the playoffs Reggie has the better record and [B]he's the better shooter.[/B][/QUOTE]

Ewing and Reggie play two completely different positions and have different skillsets. Ewing was a better shotblocker and rebounder. Pointless observation yes? So would be using shooting as an arguing point for Reggie.

[QUOTE=guy;14880469]
-He's concluded and dismissed as being below Magic and Bird - two players that were never defensive players and don't have the longevity that Kobe has.
?[/QUOTE]

I value defense, and less so longevity. That being said, Kobe's advantage on defense over those two (which only exists for quick point of attack players as the other two would be better at guarding bigger players) would not overcome the advantage that Bird and Magic bring to the rest of the game. I think a similar modern comparison would be Giannis vs Jokic. Bird/Magic/Jokic bring a strong culture and cohesion that permeates the whole team's attitude and is very conducive to winning. Kobe and Giannis are outstanding individual talents that don't elevate their teammates to the same degree.

SOME REASONS WHY you could list Kobe in the top 5 GOAT are:

- Over 30,000 points

- 5 Rings (on all five title teams he was the closer EVEN THOUGH Shaq was the best player for the first 3)

- When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing for his position, rebounding for his position, and defense ARGUABLY the most skilled player of all time.

- In terms of LONGEVITY, he was a great player LONGER than any SG to ever play.

- Was THE FACE OF THE NBA at one point in time. He's one of the VERY SMALL amount of guys who ACTUALLY transcended the NBA!

I got MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic as my top 4 GOAT. They have the BEST BALANCE of GOAT criteria. That criteria is:

- Team Accolades

- Solo Accolades

- Numbers

- Peak-prime value

- Longevity being great

- Impact on the league (rules change because of you, being a true face of the league helping grow the game, redefining a position or style of play, etc.)

The MVP count is what hurts Kobe in comparison to these four. The MVP is OFTEN based on media narratives. Many of those voters are casual fans as well. THEY AREN'T students of the game like us on here. But in ANY SPORT, it's HELLA RARE when you have players the stature of Kobe and Shaq WITH only one MVP. But BOTH check so many other boxes that I see why people include them in a top 5 GOAT. Bill Russell's peak-prime value ISN'T CLOSE to top 10 of all time.

BUT his solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the game are SO GREAT that he deserves to be in the top 5 GOAT. My only locks are MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic for the top 5 GOAT. After that, Wilt, Bill Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan I'M SURE have many people putting them in the top 5 GOAT for various reasons. Not to mention you have Steph,KD, Joker, and Giannis who have the GOODS to shake up the top 10 GOAT list at some point too. But when it comes to Kobe DOES HE bring enough to the table to be top 5 GOAT DESPITE having only 1 regular season MVP. I would say YES!

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14882380]Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.[/QUOTE]

If we apply this same logic to LA, Shaq went 36-8 in games Kobe missed, Kobe went 55-47 in games Shaq missed.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14882380]Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.[/QUOTE]


Dumb narrative. Guess what happens when you take away a great #2 on a team? They get worse! It's incredible isn't it?

Jokic without Murray is not winning anything if importance. It's not a knock on an ATG when you take away their great #2 and the team can't win.

[QUOTE=bizil;14882314]SOME REASONS WHY you could list Kobe in the top 5 GOAT are:

- Over 30,000 points

- 5 Rings (on all five title teams he was the closer EVEN THOUGH Shaq was the best player for the first 3)

- When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing for his position, rebounding for his position, and defense ARGUABLY the most skilled player of all time.

- In terms of LONGEVITY, he was a great player LONGER than any SG to ever play.

- Was THE FACE OF THE NBA at one point in time. He's one of the VERY SMALL amount of guys who ACTUALLY transcended the NBA!

I got MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic as my top 4 GOAT. They have the BEST BALANCE of GOAT criteria. That criteria is:

- Team Accolades

- Solo Accolades

- Numbers

- Peak-prime value

- Longevity being great

- Impact on the league (rules change because of you, being a true face of the league helping grow the game, redefining a position or style of play, etc.)

The MVP count is what hurts Kobe in comparison to these four. The MVP is OFTEN based on media narratives. Many of those voters are casual fans as well. THEY AREN'T students of the game like us on here. But in ANY SPORT, it's HELLA RARE when you have players the stature of Kobe and Shaq WITH only one MVP. But BOTH check so many other boxes that I see why people include them in a top 5 GOAT. Bill Russell's peak-prime value ISN'T CLOSE to top 10 of all time.

BUT his solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the game are SO GREAT that he deserves to be in the top 5 GOAT. My only locks are MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic for the top 5 GOAT. After that, Wilt, Bill Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan I'M SURE have many people putting them in the top 5 GOAT for various reasons. Not to mention you have Steph,KD, Joker, and Giannis who have the GOODS to shake up the top 10 GOAT list at some point too. But when it comes to Kobe DOES HE bring enough to the table to be top 5 GOAT DESPITE having only 1 regular season MVP. I would say YES![/QUOTE]

Yea... Kobe was one of those guys even your mom who doesn't watch a lick of basketball would know. Up there with Jordan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Bron etc. Even guys like Garnett and Dirk and Jokic are unknown to the general public that don't follow ball.

[QUOTE=Nowitness;14882500]If we apply this same logic to LA, Shaq went 36-8 in games Kobe missed, Kobe went 55-47 in games Shaq missed.[/QUOTE]

And then Shaq would get swept out the playoffs without prime Kobe or Wade two GOAT shooting guards. He wasn't good enough to win with Penny who was a Pippen or Pau level player.

[QUOTE=John8204;14880253][B][SIZE=5]Okay question for the thread aside from Jordan what other Shooting Guard would you rank ahead of Kobe[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

No one. Kobe is the second greatest SG ever.

[QUOTE=John8204;14880502]Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.[/QUOTE]

Reggie Miller couldn't pass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't play defense. He has zero rings, zero scoring titles, zero assist titles, zero steals titles, nothing. No MVP's, no All-Star MVP's, no FMVP's again nothing. He only ever received MVP votes in 1998 and 2000 out of the 18 seasons he played. All he could do was shoot.

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;14882547]Reggie Miller couldn't pass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't play defense. He has zero rings, zero scoring titles, zero assist titles, zero steals titles, nothing. No MVP's, no All-Star MVP's, no FMVP's again nothing. He only ever received MVP votes in 1998 and 2000 out of the 18 seasons he played. All he could do was shoot.[/QUOTE]

Win Shares -
Reggie 15th
Wade - 46th

VORP
22. Reggie Miller* 66.07
23. Paul Pierce* 65.54
24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18
25. Dwyane Wade* 62.80

I mean really...he couldn't pass and rebound....
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Rebounds 4,182 (3.0 rpg)
Assists 4,141 (3.0 apg)

Those are pretty good numbers seeing as he was playing with Mark Jackson and Detlef Schrempf. I'm not saying it's wrong to put Wade ahead of Reggie it's a choice I watched both players growing up and Reggie was better in my opinion. But as I said with the Kobe thing...how many SG's are you putting between Reggie and Wade

I usually don't get involved in the player vs player debates because usually it's not so wrong to be on one side or the other that it's worth arguing over.

But Miller vs Wade needs to be addressed. Wade was a better player in his peak, without a debate. He has a title as the undisputed lead man (Miller didn't do this) and he was viewed as at worst a top 3 player in his peak years (Miller never did this)

As pure basketball players he could create far beyond Miller ever could. He was a better defender in all facets.

[QUOTE=John8204;14882737]Win Shares -
Reggie 15th
Wade - 46th

VORP
22. Reggie Miller* 66.07
23. Paul Pierce* 65.54
24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18
25. Dwyane Wade* 62.80

I mean really...he couldn't pass and rebound....
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Rebounds 4,182 (3.0 rpg)
Assists 4,141 (3.0 apg)

Those are pretty good numbers seeing as he was playing with Mark Jackson and Detlef Schrempf. I'm not saying it's wrong to put Wade ahead of Reggie it's a choice I watched both players growing up and Reggie was better in my opinion. But as I said with the Kobe thing...how many SG's are you putting between Reggie and Wade[/QUOTE]
Why don't you just tell that you credit miller this much because he represents the first team that kobe faced in the finals? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871165]Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?

And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is [B].58[/B] and Kobe's is .[B]55[/B]. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not sure-fire proof, but the superficial closeness only underscores that basketball, like most sports, is a game of fine margins at the top. It doesn’t, however, make it any less of a tick in LeBron’s favour.

3% (you’re rounding down btw, it’s 3.8%) is a rounding error over the course of a game. Over the course of a career, it’s a hearty advantage.


[QUOTE]
Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was [B].64[/B] back in 2012.

Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:

- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic

I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I don’t think ‘87 was touting LeBron’s efficiency edge as the sole reason for his superiority.

Beyond that, one has to adjust for offensive environment; failing to relativize makes the comparison disingenuous. LeBron’s highest TS+ in a season was 120. Here were theirs last year:

Jokic - 121
Durant - 116
Curry - 113
Zion - 112
Giannis - 111

Most of these guys are on the shortlist of most efficient scorers in league history, so it’s no shame on LeBron for them to rival him in that regard…but it doesn’t necessitate them being better players, nor was that 87’s argument. I’m sure none of us here would feel any consternation about admitting that Durant, for instance, is a better scorer than LeBron while simultaneously trailing him as a basketball player.

Good thread btw, sparked some nice discussion. Kobe is and probably always will be a polarizing player. He is a poster-boy (for better and worse) of two separate schools of thought/types of fans. Even just my own opinion about him as a basketball player has swung wildly — as a kid I regularly watched him play foil to my Kings, and held him in the highest esteem as a result. As time wore on I could no longer entertain the idea of him holding off LeBron in the all-time rankings, much as I tried (believe it or not, I was a huge LeBron hater right up to my late teens).

Now, well, I still think he’s nowhere near LeBron (lol), but nonetheless believe the analytics-adjacent folks actually underrate him. I recently heard the Wages of Wins folks claim he isn’t a Top 25 player OAT and had to do a double and triple-take. The less poindexter-y ones like Taylor can see the forest for the trees (his characterization of Kobe’s “inelastic offence” persuasively argues that he received too much flak for his supposed “inefficiency”)…but they’re not always the norm. Kobe had a very balanced floor game with a lot hidden strengths (turnover economy, sneaky-great court vision, good rebounding for a guard) and also authored a handful of high-quality defensive seasons. If his offensive and defensive peaks overlapped, I’d have him in my Top 8. If he actually earned *all* of those All-D selections, he’s pushing Top 5…but we know he didn’t. Currently, these are the guys I rank ahead:

Jordan
LBJ
KAJ
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Wilt

He is in the next cluster of players, roughly interchangeable with West, Big O and Curry.

So, he’s somewhere in the 11-14 slots.

Sidenote but, if there’s one player I really waffle on, it’s KG. No one without an agenda can look at the rosters and situations surrounding him in his first 12 years (iow, most of his prime) and argue he should’ve eked a title. He was flanked with a terrible supporting cast (aside from perhaps ‘04) and one of the worst owners in league history. I still think he was a tier below Duncan, but is it entirely coincidental that once their supporting casts were basically equalized, so too was their output and effect on winning (well, more or less)? No one had a more wasted prime. If I had a bit more conviction I’d probably lump him in with Kobe. But I don’t, so I won’t. Ergo, 11-14.

[QUOTE=tpols;14870935]Lebron was a shot away from 2013 being another 2011.

Ray saved his legacy because up to that point Pop had employed the "sag defense" and limited him. Everybody forgot about boris diaw memes because of Rays shot. Bron basically went off only after Ray flipped the momentum and snatched victory from the certain Jaws of defeat.

Then the Heat went on to get blown out by the biggest margin of victory in NBA Finals history the next year besides Lebrons loss to the warriors in 2018.

Lebron literally holds records for being blown out after team hopping all around the league. :roll:

Even internationally outside the NBA brand Lebron was on bronze teams and needed Kobe to go off in [B]The Championship [/B]game vs Spain to win Gold.

Kobe was just... better at basketball.[/QUOTE]


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