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[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14975827]Do you think this version of LeBron is leading the Cavs to 66 wins in '09? Or leading the Cavs to the Finals in 2018?[/QUOTE]
2009 and 2018 are absolute peak versions of Lebron. I'd take the current version over 2007, 2008, 2011, and 2013. He's smarter, more skilled and a better shooter. And not playing scared most of all.
[QUOTE=tpols;14975834]2009 and 2018 are absolute peak versions of Lebron. I'd take the current version over 2007, 2008, 2011, [B]and 2013.[/B] He's smarter, more skilled and a better shooter. And not playing scared most of all.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=tpols;14975824]Lebron spends millions of dollars taking care of himself every year while MJ used to smoke, drink, and gamble to an extreme degree.
He is still in his prime and the statistics support it which is [B]why you and Pheonix have no metric based argument[/B]... just emojis and one liners.
[/QUOTE]
We don't? Prime/Peak Lebron had 30-31 PER seasons, this year he's at 23. The only year lower was his rookie season. His offensive rating is a whole 10 points from its peak( 2013) and his defensive rating is tied for the worst of his career( matched by last season). His VORP numbers are at the bottom of his career. His plus/minus right now is -61 and at one point was -115 or something like that. Need anything else? Now tell us what metrics you're using to say he's in his prime. Emojis and one liners are really all that's needed for such a ridiculous position, but you got two minutes of effort from me looking up metrics to show how dense the idea of Lebron being in his prime is.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14975840]:roll:[/QUOTE]
2013 was almost another 2011. A literal hair away.
Lebrons stats were on par with that before Ray Allen's shot flipped the momentum and brought Miami back from the dead.
He was still playing scared. Ask Boris Diaw. Now? He doesn't seem scared anymore when shooting at all.
Same year he scored 16 points in the 4th quarter and brought them back in the game before Ray Allen hit the shot?
Or this game 7 performance?
[video=youtube;Htds3dbB-wY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htds3dbB-wY[/video]
What were his averages in the Finals that year before rays shot?
Worse than his seasons average today. Guaranteed if you pull it up.
He was playing scared til Allen flipped the momentum. Today? He doesn't really play scared and is still a super athlete but smarter and more secure mentally.
[QUOTE=tpols;14975854]What were his averages in the Finals that year before rays shot?
Worse than his seasons average today. Guaranteed if you pull it up.
He was playing scared til Allen flipped the momentum. Today? He doesn't really play scared and is still a super athlete but smarter and more secure mentally.[/QUOTE]
Also in 2016 he was shitting the bed hard the first 4 games before dray got suspended and bogut injured. I wanna say something like 22 ppg on trash efficiency from the top of my head.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14975858]Also in 2016 he was shitting the bed hard the first 4 games before dray got suspended and bogut injured. I wanna say something like 22 ppg on trash efficiency from the top of my head.[/QUOTE]
Yup.
A lot of these guys don't understand that although he may not be as fast... he's smarter. And still as strong as ever. Probably weight room wise stronger than he's ever been. 30s and early 40s is peak strength for men and he's on a routine we can't even comprehend or attain.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14975843]We don't? Prime/Peak Lebron had 30-31 PER seasons, this year he's at 23. The only year lower was his rookie season. His offensive rating is a whole 10 points from its peak( 2013) and his defensive rating is tied for the worst of his career( matched by last season). His VORP numbers are at the bottom of his career. His plus/minus right now is -61 and at one point was -115 or something like that. Need anything else? Now tell us what metrics you're using to say he's in his prime. Emojis and one liners are really all that's needed for such a ridiculous position, but you got two minutes of effort from me looking up metrics to show how dense the idea of Lebron being in his prime is.[/QUOTE]
Tpols? I note you've replied to several posts since mine, so we'll pretend you missed this one. Any feedback or shall we stick with your insightful metrics of 'he plays less scared and is still a super athlete?' Can you let me know where I can find those categories on Basketball References? Thanks.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14975858]Also in 2016 he was shitting the bed hard the first 4 games before dray got suspended and bogut injured. I wanna say something like 22 ppg on trash efficiency from the top of my head.[/QUOTE]
Same series he led all players in every category?
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14975862]Same series he led all players in every category?[/QUOTE]
yeah
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14975861]Tpols? I note you've replied to several posts since mine, so we'll pretend you missed this one. Any feedback or shall we stick with your insightful metrics of 'he plays less scared and is still a super athlete?' Can you let me know where I can find those categories on Basketball References? Thanks.[/QUOTE]
A 23 PER? Lebron was a 25 PER in 2015. Who cares? You're not only splitting hairs but doing a huge disservice to his current ability.
Lebron is averaging 24/9/8 on 116 ORTG. His career averages are 27/7/7 on 116 ORTG.
Is that a massive difference? Not at all. Same efficiency, but he traded a couple points for dimes.
And the Lakers have a very good record so it's not like he's stat padding on a shit team.
I cant believe me of all people have to defend Lebron James against you guys. :facepalm
[QUOTE=tpols;14975866]A 23 PER? Lebron was a 25 PER in 2015. Who cares? You're not only splitting hairs but doing a huge disservice to his current ability.
Lebron is averaging 24/9/8 on 116 ORTG. His career averages are 27/7/7 on 116 ORTG.
Is that a massive difference? Not at all. Same efficiency, but he traded a couple points for dimes.
And the Lakers have a very good record so it's not like he's stat padding on a shit team.
I cant believe me of all people have to defend Lebron James against you guys :facepalm[/QUOTE]
He had a 25 PER but he wasn't a net negative on the court and was still playing capable defense. That wasn't one of his better prime seasons offensively but he wasn't a -61 on the court either.
His career averages take both the high and low spectrums of his career into account. 'Prime Lebron' was dropping seasons of 30/9/8, offensive seasons of over 120 and under 100 defensive IN THE SAME SEASON, TS% numbers of 65%. Past prime Lebron is mostly on the lower end of those numbers. There is certainly no version of prime Lebron that would be a negative on the court in plus/minus. He doesn't impact winning like he used to, and you can look back at some footage of him flying all around the court in 2009 or even 2013 to know he's nowhere near his physical prime. He's had to basically abandon the defensive side in order to maintain his numbers on the offensive, so how the fukk can he still be in his prime?
So you can ma$turbate over the surface numbers till you run out of kleenex and do your usual little tap-dance to justify your position, but nobody having advanced metrics on the lower end of their career in multiple categories would be in their relative prime. That doesn't even take into account this era's lack of defense compared even to Lebron's heyday, where it's easier is maintain stats into your mid/late 30's so that somebody can come along making stupid comments that he's still prime until you look under the hood.
You're becoming very emotional now. Breathe for a second.
I just laid the averages and productions out for you. Lebrons numbers in that regard are literally identical to his career average minus a few points and adding a few assists which balances out.
Lebron has been balling. Especially recently. Like I said before I don't know how me of all people is the one to point that out. Yall are slipping.
And need to recognize game when you see it.
Nah, calling out stupidity in colorful terms should by no means delude you into thinking your comments make anyone emotional.
I laid out several numbers for you that shows he's on the low end of several advanced metrics that you claimed SBT and I didn't have. Because he's had to abandon the defensive side to maintain his offensive production in an era of inflated stats, by no means means he's in his prime. You're harping too much on the term prime like you were generational in the other thread.
If you don't care about defense and view the ability to perform at a high level regularly as being unimportant then you could also ignore the decrease in athleticism and scoring average and say that 40 year-old James is in his prime. That's a lot to deny though. I'm as big of a Tatum fan as this site has and I don't believe he would make first team AllNBA over prime James.
Lebron is coming off back to back games of a 30 point triple double and 40 point game with wins over two playoff teams. In just the past few days.
I'm pretty sure he knows how to play at a high level. Some of you fellas are acting like you don't watch basketball at all anymore recently. And I can't be blamed for that.
[QUOTE=tpols;14975889]Lebron is coming off back to back games of a 30 point triple double and 40 point game with wins over two playoff teams. In just the past few days.
I'm pretty sure he knows how to play at a high level. Some of you fellas are acting like you don't watch basketball at all anymore recently. And I can't be blamed for that.[/QUOTE]
LeBron hasn't scored 40 points since last March, and hasn't come close to reaching that in a month. I'm genuinely curious what game you keep referring to where he scored 40 points, did you make up in your mind that this happened :lol
There really is no nuance on this board. The argument isn't whether Lebron is playing very well, it's comparing him to the years most would consider his prime when he was a legit two way force. If he's now a one way force then no, by the standards of when he was a two way force he's not in his prime. It's like arguing that Steph Curry this year is only 2 points off his career average but same rebounds and assists so he's still in his prime, like I didn't see what he was in 2016 or if I choose to ignore that all his advanced metrics are nowhere close to his peak.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14975826]It’s purely for your response at this point I think.[/QUOTE]
Aaand it worked. So why not.
No one said James isn't smart, you're arguing with your imagination. We are pointing out the very obvious fact that he's lost some athleticism ( he's still got athleticism but in his prime he was arguably the most athletic player of all time) and he now has to be load managed. Before last year's 71 games he had the straight years under 60 games. Most of his prime years James played in the high 70s. Now he does load management and only defends when the game is on the line. Most people that have followed his career know these things.
I mean you can continue to doubt Lebron. That's your perogative.
I've seen him play probably more than most people combined an his game is as refined as ever. He's not 2009 or 2018 version of perfection but close to other years people would consider his prime.
If you don't like my opinion? Kick rocks and don't respond to me. No sweat off my back. Just don't cry and throw a hissy fit while you do it.
You know what I mean?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14975892]LeBron hasn't scored 40 points since last March, and hasn't come close to reaching that in a month. I'm genuinely curious what game you keep referring to where he scored 40 points, did you make up in your mind that this happened :lol[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: Bear in mind he said all this in the same breath as saying the rest of us aren't watching basketball, while he comes up with imaginary numbers.
[QUOTE=tpols;14975901]I mean you can continue to doubt Lebron. That's your perogative.
If you don't like my opinion? Kick rocks and don't respond to me. No sweat off my back. Just don't cry and throw a hissy fit while you do it.
You know what I mean?[/QUOTE]
You're becoming very emotional now. Breathe for a second.
You're free to take your own advice at any time. Don't like the opposing viewpoints? Door is that way ------->
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14975902]:oldlol: Bear in mind he said all this in the same breath as saying the rest of us aren't watching basketball, while he comes up with imaginary numbers.[/QUOTE]
Some posters like spursm8 straight up make up events that occurred, I genuinely don't know if tpols just imagined in his mind that LeBron dropped 40 the other day when he hasn't done it all season, and like I said, hasn't come close in a month.
[QUOTE]
You're free to take your own advice at any time. Don't like the opposing viewpoints? Door is that way ------->
[/QUOTE]
I generally don't curse people or gang up. Because I don't need to.
The only door I see is the one you hit yourself with on the way out. Because I'm still gonna be here big boy. :oldlol:
Whether you like it or not.
You're making an argument that multiple people disagree with, hence you're being ganged up on. Emotional and playing victim at the same time. I can hear the sand falling out of your panties as we type. What a whiny bitch statement. :oldlol:
We're all still going to be here, 'big boy'. Whether you like it or not.
You're getting emotional again pheonix.
Don't you think its time to "cool" down?
(no pun intended)
Aww look, a cute attempt to try and spin words after playing victim.
[IMG]https://media1.tenor.com/m/tZgiRp-xdgkAAAAC/baby-crying.gif[/IMG]
"[I]I don't like people disagreeing with me, stop it you guys!"[/I]
Still here, big boy.
One thing about this is really irritating to me. How people keep glossing over his conditioning. If I'm giving an athlete $350m, the bare MINIMUM I want from them is to be in peak physical condition, all the time. No excuses, no playing yourself into shape. Like Kenny Smith says, you don't play basketball to get in shape, you get in shape to play basketball. Luka Doncic has been an absolute disgrace with this and its only gotten worse. This is is 7th year, he's nearly 26 years old. You still have puppy fat? You still balloon in the off season? Grow the **** up and start acting like a professional.
This is where people say "he played the most minutes last year, look what numbers he's putting up!". That doesnt give him a pass. If a prodigy at school is getting B grades, you don't pat them on the back for it. You tell them they should be getting A+ across the board in their sleep. I'm not saying this was a great trade for Dallas or anything, that remains to be seen. But I am saying that with that supermax around the corner, I would hesitate as well giving it to a guy who clearly doesnt care enough about his body or perfecting his craft.
[QUOTE=Nowoco;14975936]One thing about this is really irritating to me. How people keep glossing over his conditioning. If I'm giving an athlete $350m, the bare MINIMUM I want from them is to be in peak physical condition, all the time. No excuses, no playing yourself into shape. Like Kenny Smith says, you don't play basketball to get in shape, you get in shape to play basketball. Luka Doncic has been an absolute disgrace with this and its only gotten worse. This is is 7th year, he's nearly 26 years old. You still have puppy fat? You still balloon in the off season? Grow the **** up and start acting like a professional.
This is where people say "he played the most minutes last year, look what numbers he's putting up!". That doesnt give him a pass. If a prodigy at school is getting B grades, you don't pat them on the back for it. You tell them they should be getting A+ across the board in their sleep. I'm not saying this was a great trade for Dallas or anything, that remains to be seen. But I am saying that with that supermax around the corner, I would hesitate as well giving it to a guy who clearly doesnt care enough about his body or perfecting his craft.[/QUOTE]
The problem with your analogy is that he IS getting A+ grades across the board. He's been arguably the best playoff performer in the last 5 years and is fresh off a finals appearance.
Lukas game is built off size and strength with a combo of elite shooting, ball handling, and passing skills. Losing 30 pounds would not automatically unlock some sort of lost potential. He's quite literally built different. The only athletic trait he tested well for is his ability to decelerate... the same trait Harden is elite at. Harden is also a big bodied dude with the same skillet.
Crying about his weight and ignoring his actual production as a player is ****ing retarded. It's like posting a picture of Jokic with his shirt off and pretending it's somehow relevant.
[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14975937]The problem with your analogy is that he IS getting A+ grades across the board. He's been arguably the best playoff performer in the last 5 years and is fresh off a finals appearance.
Lukas game is built off size and strength with a combo of elite shooting, ball handling, and passing skills. Losing 30 pounds would not automatically unlock some sort of lost potential. He's quite literally built different. The only athletic trait he tested well for is his ability to decelerate... the same trait Harden is elite at. Harden is also a big bodied dude with the same skillet.
Crying about his weight and ignoring his actual production as a player is ****ing retarded. It's like posting a picture of Jokic with his shirt off and pretending it's somehow relevant.[/QUOTE]Doncic is able to be a great player in spite of his conditioning but of course he would be better if he was in shape. You and a lot of others ignore the fact that his defense is terrible. Jason Kidd himself pointed out that the Celtics had a bullseye on Doncic in the finals. There were two big benefits to that, it gave them an avenue to attack an otherwise tough defense and the energy they made Doncic expend on defense made it hard for him to take over the game late. If he was in great shape like great players normally are attacking his defense wouldn't get them as many scores and he would be better able to dominate in the fourth.
Of course he is still a great player, as the Western Conference playoffs showed there are a lot of teams that won't take advantage of that. But it's a flaw that against a great team can be costly and when the goal is a championship he will have to deal with a great team.
[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14975937]The problem with your analogy is that he IS getting A+ grades across the board. He's been arguably the best playoff performer in the last 5 years and is fresh off a finals appearance.
[/QUOTE]
For now. Wait until the injuries start happening more regularly and they will if he doesnt sort himself out. Let me ask you this, if Luka keeps getting niggling injuries, what's more likely? That he knuckles down and gets himself into the best shape of his life or that he comfort eats, gets lazy and piles on the pounds? He has repeatedly said throughout his career that he needs to do better with his weight and has continuously failed to do so. That means he has a big problem and is unable to stop it.
The Mavs did this trade not for what has happened but what they think is going to happen. Injuries then lack of production then decline. They all go hand in hand. This trade will either be the worst in sports history or the most ingenious piece of foresight. Again, time will tell. But I don't think the latter is as unlikely or would be as unexpected as many seem to think. The Mavs certainly think so. I've seen a lot of comments on social media saying that they think Luka may have already peaked. We'll see.
[QUOTE=Nowoco;14975940]Let me ask you this, if Luka keeps getting [B]niggling injuries,[/B] what's more likely? That he knuckles down and gets himself into the best shape of his life or that he comfort eats, gets lazy and piles on the pounds? He has repeatedly said throughout his career that he needs to do better with his weight and has continuously failed to do so. That means he has a big problem and is unable to stop it.
[/QUOTE]
Woah...
Are we gonna let this slide..?
[QUOTE=Nowoco;14975940]The Mavs did this trade not for what has happened but what they think is going to happen. Injuries then lack of production then decline. They all go hand in hand. This trade will either be the worst in sports history or the most ingenious piece of foresight. Again, time will tell. But I don't think the latter is as unlikely or would be as unexpected as many seem to think. The Mavs certainly think so. I've seen a lot of comments on social media saying that they think Luka may have already peaked. We'll see.[/QUOTE]
Trading away your 25 year old franchise player who's already performed at an ATG level because he "might" get injured and decline is genuinely the most retarded rationale I've ever heard.
Before this year he was perfectly durable, always playing at minimum 65+ games. I just can't imagine any scenario where this trade doesn't end up looking as disastrous as it currently does.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14975939]Doncic is able to be a great player in spite of his conditioning but of course he would be better if he was in shape. You and a lot of others ignore the fact that his defense is terrible. Jason Kidd himself pointed out that the Celtics had a bullseye on Doncic in the finals. There were two big benefits to that, it gave them an avenue to attack an otherwise tough defense and the energy they made Doncic expend on defense made it hard for him to take over the game late. If he was in great shape like great players normally are attacking his defense wouldn't get them as many scores and he would be better able to dominate in the fourth.
Of course he is still a great player, as the Western Conference playoffs showed there are a lot of teams that won't take advantage of that. But it's a flaw that against a great team can be costly and when the goal is a championship he will have to deal with a great team.[/QUOTE]
They didn't lose because of Lukas lack of conditioning, they lost because the Celtics were a significantly more talented and deep team. Luka had to carry a far greater burden than anybody on the Celtics and the Mavericks overachieved by making the finals in the first place. Also he was injured in the finals
He's not just a great player, he's generational and has been arguably the best and most clutch playoff performer the last several seasons and he's only 25. They traded him for an aging Center and ONE 1st round pick 4 years from now. Mikael ****ing Bridges netted 5 1st round picks. It's genuinely the worst trade in sports history.
Crying about conditioning is just cope.
[QUOTE=Nowoco;14975940]For now. Wait until the injuries start happening more regularly and they will if he doesnt sort himself out. Let me ask you this, if Luka keeps getting niggling injuries, what's more likely? That he knuckles down and gets himself into the best shape of his life or that he comfort eats, gets lazy and piles on the pounds? He has repeatedly said throughout his career that he needs to do better with his weight and has continuously failed to do so. That means he has a big problem and is unable to stop it.
The Mavs did this trade not for what has happened but what they think is going to happen. Injuries then lack of production then decline. They all go hand in hand. This trade will either be the worst in sports history or the most ingenious piece of foresight. Again, time will tell. But I don't think the latter is as unlikely or would be as unexpected as many seem to think. The Mavs certainly think so. I've seen a lot of comments on social media saying that they think Luka may have already peaked. We'll see.[/QUOTE]
So the Mavs traded him because of potential injuries for an aging center with a far greater injury history? That's awesome logic.
Even if the worst case does pan out for Luka, they still traded him for pennies on the dollar and one 1st round pick at the peak of his value for someone older and more injury prone than him.
Its the worst trade ever and I don't need to see the future to say that.
I said it earlier i’m the thread but you don’t play 70 games at basically the highest MPG while leading the league in scoring, taking your team to the finals, with poor conditioning.
I don’t care if he weighs 250 or 350 or whatever, the results matter, and you can’t argue with his results.
You could say that about literally any player in NBA history, “they could have been in BETTER condition than they were”
It’s a similar thing with Shaq or Giannis with free throws. Yeah I guess in theory they should be able to practice morning, noon, and night and get it up to 90 or at least 85% right? But sometimes there’s theory and then there is reality.
Of course there is aways room for improvement but at some point you are who you are.
I will say there is a chance of him continuing to gain weight and it turning into injury issues…However, that is a chance you just take with a player of the caliber of Luka.
If he lost too much weight he could also get worse. He uses his weight to his advantage and it’s part of his game.
Lebron took his family with him to New York for a game? Why?
Do they travel on the team plane? 🤨
[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14975945]They didn't lose because of Lukas lack of conditioning, they lost because the Celtics were a significantly more talented and deep team. Luka had to carry a far greater burden than anybody on the Celtics and the Mavericks overachieved by making the finals in the first place. Also he was injured in the finals
He's not just a great player, he's generational and has been arguably the best and most clutch playoff performer the last several seasons and he's only 25. They traded him for an aging Center and ONE 1st round pick 4 years from now. Mikael ****ing Bridges netted 5 1st round picks. It's genuinely the worst trade in sports history.
Crying about conditioning is just cope.[/QUOTE]
Doncic's condition wasn't the only problem but it's a fact that the Celtics got the ball to his man as much as possible just like it's a fact that after dominating the Western playoffs the Celtics handled him. Whether he's a generational talent or not he has a flaw and it got exploited. You want to act like he's the one athlete on the planet for whom conditioning doesn't matter. Doesn't work that way.