1994 Knicks vs Bulls Game 3. What was Pippen thinking?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E[/url]

The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.

People have forgotten about Magic running his championship winning coach out of town as a second year player too. I don't recall you starting a thread on that. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE]Where you stand on Scottie Pippen depends on two questions:
1. Do you follow the NBA? I mean, do you really follow it?
2. Do you give up on anyone who has made even one stupid mistake in his life?

If the answer is "yes" for No. 1, you probably wonder why Scottie's recent retirement wasn't a bigger story. It's not every day one of the 20 greatest players ever hangs it up, right? Does MJ win six rings without him? Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways? Was there a more influential defensive player in the past 30 years?

During the 1992 Olympics, Chuck Daly called Scottie his second-best player, describing him as the ultimate "fill-in-the-blanks guy." That's right. Like The Wolf in "Pulp Fiction," Scottie specialized in cleaning up everyone else's mess. When Magic was running amok in the 1991 Finals, Scottie shut him down. When the Knicks were shoving the Bulls around in the 1994 playoffs, Scottie dunked on Ewing, then stood over him defiantly. During the Charles Smith game the year before, Pippen and Horace Grant were the ones stuffing Smith again and again. And when the 1998 Pacers tried to snuff out the MJ era, Jordan and Pippen crashed the boards and willed themselves time and again to the foul line in Game 7, two smaller guys dominating the paint against a bigger team. They just wanted it more.

I always thought MJ and Scottie were like Crockett and Tubbs. Crockett got most of the attention, and deservedly so ... but he's still not taking Calderone down without Tubbs. Even better, Tubbs could carry his own episode every now and then, which was precisely what happened in 1994 during MJ's first sabbatical. Scottie (22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 49% FG) came within a fishy foul on Hubert Davis from taking Chicago to the Finals. How did he not win the MVP award? Pippen detractors conveniently forget that season, just like they ignore the older Scottie leading Portland to within one self-destructive quarter of the 2000 Finals, or gutting through the 1998 playoffs with two herniated disks, in the process jeopardizing his crack at free agency. It's easy to dismiss him as Jordan's sidekick. Or to point to the migraine in 1990's Game 7 against the Pistons. Hey, if all else fails, just bring up the quitter thing.

Which brings me to the second question ...

We all remember that Knicks series in 1994, when Scottie asked out of Game 3 because Phil Jackson called the final play for Toni Kukoc (who ended up sinking the game-winner with Pippen sulking on the bench). In the locker room after the game, Bill Cartwright, tears running down his face, screamed at Pippen, later calling it the biggest disappointment of his career. Jackson agreed.[B]

But was it as bad as all that? Without MJ, Scottie carried the Bulls to 55 wins by himself. It was his team, and when it's your team, a mind-set takes hold: everything is on your shoulders, everyone is gunning for you, you can't take a night off. You're a pumped-up star of your own action movie. Unless you think like a superhero, you won't survive. Game 3 was Scottie's Jimmy Chitwood moment. He'd earned the right to say, "Coach, I'll make it." And Jackson took it away from him.[/B]

See, Scottie came from the dirt-poor streets of Arkansas, one of 12 siblings with an ailing father who couldn't work. He was a manager at Central Arkansas before an improbable growth spurt allowed his career to take off. Scottie's NBA stock skyrocketed before the 1987 draft, but GM Jerry Krause preyed on his naivete with a crummy six-year deal for short money, refusing to renegotiate even when Scottie emerged as an All-Star. Searching for security, Pippen eschewed free agency to grab a long extension -- just as salaries were taking off -- playing his prime at a steep discount. To make matters worse, the Bulls courted Kukoc hard, paying Scottie only after Kukoc took a deal in Italy. Scottie never forgave them -- or Kukoc, for that matter. W[B]hen these factors -- money, jealousy, insecurity, ego, competitiveness -- clashed, a single selfish moment was born, and it stained [U]a career predicated on unselfishness.[/U][/B]

Look, [B]Scottie screwed up. He apologized. His team forgave him. He took an enormous amount of heat. And [U]nothing like it ever happened again.[/U] I don't care about one mistake. I care about an exceptional athlete who redefined a position, a guy who allowed MJ to be MJ, a guy with enough rings for two hands. There has been no one like him before or since. I care about that. And those of you who are willing to let that Kukoc game overshadow such a unique career, well, maybe you should climb off your high horse before you get hurt. [/B][/QUOTE]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101[/url]

No one has forgotten it. How about talking about what has really been forgotten regarding some other greats? How about the guy who took only 8 shots in Game 5 when the ECF WAS tied 2-2 in order to make a point to his coach even though he was taking over 30% of his team's shots in the previous four games? How about the guy who mailed in an entire half of a Game 7? How about the guy who took only 2 shots in the second half of a NBA finals game to make a point about him being unselfish--passing it off even when he was open? If you want to talk about quitting let's talk about other incidents too, which went beyond merely quitting on a play where as a result someone else had to inbound the ball with 1.8 seconds left. All these guys get a free pass. When people talk about them no one even mentions these things. In Pippen's case 1.8gate is the second or third thing mentioned. Google any articles on him retiring. It was always in there. It will be in the articles next year when he gets in the HOF. How come the same wasn't doing in the other cases?

[QUOTE]Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him.[/QUOTE]

You have forgotten. Everyone expected it to go to Pippen so Jackson designed it for someone else. Besides, with 1.8 seconds left what kind of shot is the inbounder going to get anyway? Pass it to someone, give it back to Pippen with 0.5? Do you know the background of the Pippen-Kukoc thing? Also in that game, Kukoc had screwed up the previous possession's iso play called for Pippen. That didn't help things. What he did was wrong but I can understand why he was angry and he is unfairly singled out. He quit on one play--a play who was supposed to inbound the ball. Others have done much worse with respect to quitting and get a free pass for it.

The only reason I made this thread is because I've never heard this topic being discussed on this site, I know Pippen apologized and his teammates forgave him, I just want people's opinions on the incident.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]The only reason I made this thread is because I've never heard this topic being discussed on this site, I know Pippen apologized and his teammates forgave him, I just want people's opinions on the incident.[/QUOTE]

Really? It and the migraine game always comes up in Pippen threads, which I never see you in despite your interest in him. :confusedshrug: We never hear of what Magic did to Westhead after Westhead coached the team to a championship, what Player X did in Game 5, Player Y in Game 7 and Player Z in the NBA finals. I've never seen anyone else mention Game 5 in the numerous threads about Player X. Game 7 rarely comes up in Player Y's threads and the media has erased it from history. Player Z quitting? Never mentioned. Magic? Never mentioned.

What opinions do you expect? No one is going to say what he did was right You are a good poster but this thread seems out of character--like Pippen in Game 3! The legit replies to this thread will say what I and Simmons said. However, there are going to be numerous trolls using it to bash him.

Yep, that was a pretty dark moment for me as a Bulls fan. At least he redeemed himself later on.

Regardless of his personal history with Kukoc, could you have imagined Jordan the supposed ballhog benching himself when he was asked to pass to Paxson in 93 or Kerr in 97? Plus, he had previously gotten into a fight with Kerr, so it's not like their relationship was all sunshine and roses, either.

Up to that point I thought Pip was the greatest player of the 90s next to Jordan(to be fair I was young and a huge Bulls fan) but that play altered my perception of Scottie from a selfless player who "sacrificed" his stats to play with Jordan to a very talented player who didn't quite have the mental toughness of guys like Jordan, Hakeem, Larry Bird, ect. and didn't realize when it was time to let another player take the big shot.

[QUOTE]Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways?[/QUOTE]

Larry Bird and Julius Erving, maybe? Erving wasn't a point forward, but he was a good rebounder, defender and scorer along with solid passing.

That all being said, Pippen remains one of my favorite players as well as being one of the top 35 players(Well, to me) of all time in the NBA.

[QUOTE]Regardless of his personal history with Kukoc, could you have imagined Jordan the supposed ballhog benching himself when he was asked to pass to Paxson in 93 or Kerr in 97?[/QUOTE]

When was this? Those plays were designed for Paxson and Kerr? It was Pippen penetrating into the lane in 93' who passed to Grant who passed to Paxson. Was MJ even across the half court line?

No need to imagine. The last play of Game 5 against Cleveland (back then the first round was 5 games and the Bulls trailed in the game) was designed for Dave Corzine. Jordan threw a hissy fit in the huddle, it was changed to him, and he made that now famous shot. This is what I am talking about. No one even knows what Jordan did because it has been airbrushed from history yet Pippen's incident is front and center in discussions of him.

Supposed ballhog, huh? Do you know what he did in the conference finals when his coach asked him to pass the ball more? Probably not since that too has been airbrushed from history.

[QUOTE]Up to that point I thought Pip was the greatest player of the 90s next to Jordan(to be fair I was young and a huge Bulls fan) but that play altered my perception of Scottie from a selfless player who "sacrificed" his stats to play with Jordan to a very talented player who didn't quite have the mental toughness of guys like Jordan, Hakeem, Larry Bird, ect. and didn't realize when it was time to let another player take the big shot.
[/QUOTE]

Let's see if your perception of Jordan changes in light of learning what he did 20 years ago...

Pippen was not selfless based on one play? His coaches, teammates all disagree.

[QUOTE]Larry Bird and Julius Erving, maybe? Erving wasn't a point forward, but he was a good rebounder, defender and scorer along with solid passing.[/QUOTE]

Where were they on defense? His point was not that he was better but he affected games in more ways. Could those guys dominate a game defensively?

But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson. Why don't you start the thread about Magic running Westhead out of town?

Then you dictate what legit replies are supposed to look like.

Anyway, I remember that the incident was not a big deal to me personally. We didn't get full coverage of the playoffs back then with preview shows and post game analyses. All we got was live games and the newspaper recaps. Kukoc made the shot. The Bulls won. I was happy.

Even the Pippen-Jordan spat in game 1 of the 98 finals was not a big deal to me. I knew they were veterans and would come back stronger. And they did.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]When was this? Those players were designed for Paxson and Kerr? It was Pippen penetrating in 93' who passed to Grant who passed to Paxson. Was MJ even across the half court line?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, just Kerr then, my bad.

[QUOTE]No need to imagine. The last play of Game 5 against Cleveland was designed for Dave Corzine. Jordan threw a hissy fit, it was changed to him, and he made that now famous shot. This is what I am talking about. No one even knows what Jordan did yet Pippen's incident is front and center in discussions of him.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, Roundball, I'm very aware. Did he bench himself? No he didn't and that's the point.

Anyways, I know Jordan himself has had selfish moments but when I hear people talk about how selfish he was and bring up how Pip "sacrificed" his stats I can't help but think about what Scottie did when he was finally given the title of team captain. I don't think he was anymore selfish than MJ, but I hate this image he's been given by some as some sort of saintlike player who wouldn't dream of taking away shots from his teammates. That all being said, he was great for the next four seasons so I forgive him.

[B]The hate on Pippen continues by the Jordan jockers. :rolleyes: [/B]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]When was this? Those players were designed for Paxson and Kerr? It was Pippen penetrating in 93' who passed to Grant who passed to Paxson. Was MJ even across the half court line?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, just Kerr then, my bad.

[QUOTE]No need to imagine. The last play of Game 5 against Cleveland was designed for Dave Corzine. Jordan threw a hissy fit, it was changed to him, and he made that now famous shot. This is what I am talking about. No one even knows what Jordan did yet Pippen's incident is front and center in discussions of him.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, Roundball, I'm very aware. Did he bench himself? No he didn't and that's the point.

Anyways, I know Jordan himself has had selfish moments but when I hear people talk about how selfish he was and bring up how Pip "sacrificed" his stats I can't help but think about what Scottie did when he was finally given the title of team captain. I don't think he was anymore selfish than MJ, but I hate this image he's been given by some as some sort of saintlike player who wouldn't dream of taking away shots from his teammates. That all being said, he was great for the next four seasons so I forgive him.

[QUOTE]Where were they on defense? His point was not that he was better but he affected games in more ways. Could those guys dominate a game defensively?[/QUOTE]

Erving was a very good defender, can't say the same for Bird but he made clutch shots, rebounded well, was a great passer and would even get a big steal when needed(1987 Eastern Conference Finals).

Was the Kerr play called for Kerr?

[QUOTE]Did he bench himself? No he didn't and that's the point. [/QUOTE]

The play was changed to him. Who knows what he would have done if it remained designed for Corzine. Why was he even arguing? Those are precious seconds with the season on the line and he was wasting time calling for the ball instead of discussing how to perfectly execute the play.

He did in effect bench himself in Game 5 of the ECF with the series tied 2-2. He took 8 shots the entire game. Why? His coach (Collins) asked him to pass the ball more because he was taking over 30% of the shots. He tanked a game with the series tied. He gets a free pass for this?

[QUOTE]Anyways, I know Jordan himself has had selfish moments but when I hear people talk about how selfish he was and bring up how Pip "sacrificed" his stats I can't help but think about what Scottie did when he was finally given the title of team captain.[/QUOTE]

Ask his teammates or Jackson what he did. When a player was having a bad shooting night Pippen worked harder to get him the ball and would work the offense to get him a good shot to keep his confidence up and involved in the game. Some others tended to cut players off if that happened. Pippen offered constructive leadership. His leadership was one of encouragement, not scolding. He didn't sacrifice his stats or accolades? Pippen could have blown up the team a la Shaq-Kobe by demanding a trade so he could win as "the man" or demanding more shots.

[QUOTE]But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson.[/QUOTE]

It is annoying for over a decade to see Pippen get crucified for this while Jordan, Kobe, a certain 60's great among others all get a free pass for doing similar things during entire games or halves of important games, not merely refusing to inbound the ball. In Magic's case getting a coach who just led you to a championship was selfish yet Magic is presented as the ultimate team player. Good. He was--just like Pippen. Yet Pippen's black mark on his copybook is always mentioned while Magic's not so much. These are just a few exampes.

[QUOTE]The hate on Pippen continues by the Jordan jockers.[/QUOTE]

Nah, at least not thus far. Some good may come out this thread. The people who bring this up the most here are MJ fans. If they learn that their hero had similar, arguably worse (one play vs. an entire game) moments maybe they will stop doing it. 99% of his fans don't even know about what he did because it has been airbrushed from history.

[QUOTE]Erving was a very good defender, can't say the same for Bird but he made clutch shots, rebounded well, was a great passer and would even get a big steal when needed(1987 Eastern Conference Finals).[/QUOTE]

Dominant defender? Pippen was a very good three point shooter but I wouldn't compare his three point shot to Reggie Miller's.

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF][B]The hate on Pippen continues by the Jordan jockers. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Who's hating? I already said Pippen later redeemed himself and is one of the top 35 players of all time.

But Pippen IS NOT getting "crucified" for that incident.

It was a negative moment in his career, but it was only a minor part. It hasn't tarnished his legacy as a top 50 player and as a champion.

I think you are overreacting.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]The play was changed to him. Who knows what he would have done if it remained designed for Corzine? [/quote]

I'm talking about an actual selfbenching, not what Jordan "might have" done.


[quote]He did in effect bench himself in Game 5 of the ECF with the series tied 2-2. He took 8 shots the entire game. Why? His coach (Collins) asked him to pass the ball more because he was taking over 30% of the shots. He tanked a while game with the series tied. He gets a free pass for this?[/quote]

He also hit a game winning shot in Rodman's face in game 3. Also, could you post Michael's other stats from that game, specifically rebounds, assists, steals and blocks?



[quote]Ask his teammates or Jackson what he did. When a player was having a bad shooting night Pippen worked harder to get him the ball and would work the offense to get him a good shot to keep his confidence up and involved in the game. Some others tended to cut players off if that happened. Pippen offered constructive leadership. His leadership was one of ENCOURAGEMENT, NOT SCOLDING. He didn't sacrifice his stats or accolades?[/quote]

Barkley would like to differ. Remember what happened in Houston? Yikes.

[QUOTE]For him to want to leave after one year, it disappointed me greatly," Barkley said Tuesday. "The Rockets went out of their way to get Scottie and the fans have treated him well, so I was just disappointed in him."

Pippen was offering no apologies Wednesday and reiterated that he wants to play elsewhere, preferably for the Lakers and Phil Jackson.

"I wouldn't give Charles Barkley an apology at gunpoint," Pippen said, never raising his voice. "He can never expect an apology from me. ... If anything, he owes me an apology for coming to play with his fat butt." [/QUOTE]

Also, the sacrificing of stats I mentioned? Have you compared his 98 stats to his year in Houston? His scoring took a hit when he got their despite not playing under Jordan. What happened?



[QUOTE]It is annoying for over a decade to see Pippen get crucified for this while Jordan, Kobe, a certain 60's great among others all get a free pass for doing similar things during entire games or halves of important games, not merely refusing to inbound the ball.[/QUOTE]

Jordan and Kobe got free passes? You clearly don't go on enough message boards.