Hall of fame centers in the 60's vs team defenses in the early 00's

Throughout the entire second half of game 4 during the '67 EDF with Russell facing elimination, he guarded peak Wilt 1 on 1.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs#t=0m44s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs#t=0m44s[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs#t=7m35s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs#t=7m35s[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&feature=related#t=3m22s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&feature=related#t=3m22s[/URL]

Look at how much time he had to put the ball on the floor and dribble.

Havlicek sort of comes over here, but doesn't full commit to the double team. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXG3koetzA&feature=related#t=9m16s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXG3koetzA&feature=related#t=9m16s[/URL]

The only time he was really doubled in that second half was when Sam Jones was guarding him on a switch.

[B]Compare this to Shaq in the 2000 WCF[/B], on Shaq's first touch of the series, he gets doubled before he even puts the ball on the floor. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=3m28s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=3m28s[/URL]


His only chance was getting good position before the pass because they sure as hell weren't go to let him dribble for 3 seconds. Here he gets good position and makes a quick move, but the double team still comes, though he makes the shot anyway. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=4m30s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=4m30s[/URL]

Once again, the double team immediately comes as soon as he catches the ball, before he can put the ball on the floor. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=5m44s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=5m44s[/URL]

And sometimes he didn't even have a chance to catch the ball as you can see here with Pippen over doubling him without the ball. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=8m23s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=8m23s[/URL]

Once again, as soon as Shaq catches the ball, Pippen immediately starts running over to double him. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyt48XFslGA&feature=related#t=9m09s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyt48XFslGA&feature=related#t=9m09s[/URL]

And that's just the 1st quarter, this type of defense continued and as you can see one of the only ways to score vs this strategy is to repost. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw&feature=related#t=1m24s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw&feature=related#t=1m24s[/URL] The other being quick moves before the double team can arrive. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw&feature=related#t=4m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw&feature=related#t=4m20s[/URL]

By the time he makes the catch he is doubled. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw&feature=related#t=4m53s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw&feature=related#t=4m53s[/URL]

Now look at the defensive attention given to him here. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m16s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m16s[/URL] Doubled before he can put the ball on the floor again, making the only possibility a repost and Portland still trys to come over twice, but it's too late because of the quick move.

Even in transition, Portland quickly triple teams him. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m43s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m43s[/URL]

Once again, every time he catches the ball in the post, he's quickly doubled. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=6m35s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=6m35s[/URL]

And here, he catches the ball, but there's nowhere to go with Portland defenders waiting, so he gets the ball back with not much on the shot clock far away from the basket and this is one of the rare times he was able to put the ball on the floor and then he was to back down a 7'3", 330 pound wall 15 feet from the basket [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=7m11s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=7m11s[/URL]

Once again, he catches the ball and Pippen is immediately there to double him before he can put the ball on the floor. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljRdUBGAk&feature=related#t=1m33s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljRdUBGAk&feature=related#t=1m33s[/URL]

Vs this type of defense you had to be quick with your moves and decisions, here he catches the ball on the move and goes up quickly for a successful jump hook on one of the rare occasions that the help couldn't get there. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljRdUBGAk&feature=related#t=3m58s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljRdUBGAk&feature=related#t=3m58s[/URL]

And this is just how O'Neal was guarded in the first half of the first game, compare that to how Boston guarded Wilt in the second half when they were facing elimination. Portland's defensive strategy was clear. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izs53PMDE8s#t=1m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izs53PMDE8s#t=1m20s[/URL]

Portland tried the hack-a-Shaq strategy out of desparation in the second half, but the result was a 41 points, 11 rebound, 7 assist and 5 block game from Shaq and a 15 point victory. And the defense sure didn't back off as the series went on, particularly with LA shooting so much better than usual from the perimeter in game one, which was usually a weakness for them. And in many of these clips you can see Shaq making great passes and setting up his teammates, so when the role players made their shots, there was really no way to stop him. And they did a better job at limiting him throughout the rest of the series in large part to a lack of support as you can see here from the "two deep vs too deep" references throughout the series. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw[/URL] [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izs53PMDE8s#t=2m24s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izs53PMDE8s#t=2m24s[/URL]


I've said a million times in response to those that talk about the centers Wilt faced compared to Shaq that the team defenses Shaq faced were 100 times tougher. No doubt in my mind that Shaq was harder to stop. As you can see, Wilt could let you off the hook in single coverage because he wouldn't use his size to his advantage as much as Shaq, which by Wilt's admission was a mistake, nor did he have the footwork or ball handling skills to make the same quick moves.

Credit goes to Russell for being an excellent defensive player, but anyone who thinks Shaq isn't scoring easily with single coverage, the luxury of being able to put the ball on the floor several times and a 4 inch, 100 pound size advantage is crazy. The difference between the 2 is that Shaq didn't apologize for his size and used it to make him great. He didn't really care if his ame was pretty or people thought he was skilled, though the other difference was his vastly superior low post game.

Great post, but you are basing the defensive tactics against Wilt, in ONE game, and in one of his WORST post-season games of that time?

Up until a couple of weeks ago, there was the second half of the game four of the '64 Finals available on YouTube. Now there are only briefs parts of it. But even in this one...in the few minutes that is displayed...when Wilt gets the ball (which was rare for some reason), Boston collapses on him at the 3 minute mark of the video...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pdi4jhvUAQ&feature=related[/url]

I actually view the entire second half of that game a couple of months ago, and Wilt went 7-11 in the second half. On almost every pass to Wilt, the defender guarding the passer dropped off to cover Wilt. And, if Wilt put the ball on the floor, he was swarmed. Not always of course, but quite often. You have to remember, though, that doubling off the ball was not allowed. Only with the ball...so team's had to wait until Chamberlain got the ball.

Once again, you basing your take on Wilt on ONE game...

[IMG]http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/50567578.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=E41C9FE5C4AA0A143917923364F7ADC6BCD4D02596FBF5981987C780A03F10B9B01E70F2B3269972[/IMG]

Furthermore, and as you well know...

[url]http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html[/url]

[QUOTE]In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. [B]Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain[/B]. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever.. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."

[/QUOTE]

Great job wasting time creating a post on a totally irrelevant premise.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Great post, but you are basing the defensive tactics against Wilt, in ONE game, and in one of his WORST post-season games of that time?

Up until a couple of weeks ago, there was the second half of the game four of the '64 Finals available on YouTube. Now there are only briefs parts of it. But even in this one...in the few minutes that is displayed...when Wilt gets the ball (which was rare for some reason), Boston collapses on him at the 3 minute mark of the video...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pdi4jhvUAQ&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]

I looked for that game before I made the post too so I could break down each post up in a similar way.

I wasn't even analyzing the performance though as much as I analyzing the defensive strategy

[QUOTE=Showtime]Great job wasting time creating a post on a totally irrelevant premise.[/QUOTE]

Great job wasting time with a post that did nothing more than show what a d[SIZE="2"]o[/SIZE]uchebag you are.

And how exactly is this irrelevant when I've discussed this many times with posters, particularly JLauber?

A couple of plays in the '67 ECF's...and Wilt is immediately doubled.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVg8uZ5Wn38&feature=related[/url]


Also, Wilt played from the 10-15 ft. area much more in the early to mid-60's. He was actually a very good outside shooter.

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]

[QUOTE][Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70
[/QUOTE]

In any case, I can only hope that someday we are able to watch much more of Wilt's career, instead of a few highlights or partial games (and none anywhere near his best games BTW.)

I won't dispute Shaq's inside dominance, though. Having said that, however, I just don't believe the NBA would have allowed Wilt to just physically overpower the league.

BTW, ShaqAttack,

I do enjoy these discussions. We will probably never agree 100% on anything, but I have always respected your opinions.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Great job wasting time with a post that did nothing more than show what a d[SIZE="2"]o[/SIZE]uchebag you are.[/quote]

No, it also pointed out how useless this premise of discussion really is.

[quote]And how exactly is this irrelevant when I've discussed this many times with posters, particularly JLauber?[/QUOTE]
lmfao if you honestly can't see how this premise is irrelevant, then there's nothing I can do for you.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I won't dispute Shaq's inside dominance, though. Having said that, however, I just don't believe the NBA would have allowed Wilt to just physically overpower the league.[/QUOTE]

There's no way of knowing that, however what many don't mention is things like this. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MYTeBGFql8&feature=related#t=0m23s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MYTeBGFql8&feature=related#t=0m23s[/URL] In many cases defenders got away with blatant fouls against him because they didn't affect Shaq as much as other players, but they're just as much fouls by the rule book. Of course Shaq got away with offensive fouls himself, but also some of the moves looked more like fouls than they would've had it been a smaller player using them.

That's why I've always maintained that it evens out and he was probably the toughest player to ref.

[QUOTE=Showtime]No, it also pointed out how useless this premise of discussion really is.


lmfao if you honestly can't see how this premise is irrelevant, then there's nothing I can do for you.[/QUOTE]

No, you have yet to point out why it's irrelevant. I've debated 60's defense vs 00's defense many times and stated my opinion that it's much harder to go against a great team defense and constant doubles/triples than a 1 on 1 vs one great defender. And I made the thread to give examples.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]There's no way of knowing that, however what many don't mention is things like this. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MYTeBGFql8&feature=related#t=0m23s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MYTeBGFql8&feature=related#t=0m23s[/URL] In many cases defenders got away with blatant fouls against him because they didn't affect Shaq as much as other players, but they're just as much fouls by the rule book. Of course Shaq got away with offensive fouls himself, but also some of the moves looked more like fouls than they would've had it been a smaller player using them.

That's why I've always maintained that it evens out and he was probably the toughest player to ref.



No, you have yet to point out why it's irrelevant. I've debated 60's defense vs 00's defense many times and stated my opinion that it's much harder to go against a great team defense and constant doubles/triples than a 1 on 1 vs one great defender. And I made the thread to give examples.[/QUOTE]

Shaq was fouled FAR more than what he dished out. For those that point out game six of the 2002 Sac-LA series, just take a look at game five. Shaq was pounded all game long. On one play he dunks the ball, and his elbowed in the head. In another play going for a loose ball, he is hit in the back of the head. No call on either play...and for the game...ONE FTA.

I also remember a play in a game in which Stevie Francis drove the lane and charged right into a stationary Shaq. He bounced off of Shaq...and slid some 10 feet backwards. Not only was it not called charging...Shaq was assessed with a flagrant foul.

Much like Wilt, there was a double-standard with officiating Shaq. The officials probably could have called a foul on nearly touch, but the game would have deteriorated to a parade at the FT line.

I won't dispute Shaq's low-post dominance. Wilt seldom played like that in his entire career. There were glimpses of what he could have done. I have mentioned an angry Wilt, following Kareem's sucker-punch of Hairston, just bullying his past a helpless Kareem, and in for an easy basket. Or a game I watched in '72, and against Thurmond, when the Lakers fed Wilt point-blank passes at the rim on four straight possessions, and Wilt just pushed Nate out of the way and dunked them all.

IMHO, had Jackson utilized Shaq's power, withOUT the ball (just moving into the lane like Wilt did against Nate), and waiting for passes at the rim...Shaq would have been damn near unstoppable. As it was, Shaq would get about five baskets per game, or more, doing exactly that. There was simply no one, or two players, who could keep him out of the lane.

Having said, that, though,...while I would give an inside edge to Shaq, Wilt had a better and more diverse game from 10+ ft, especially early in his career.

IMHO, Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt were BY FAR, the most dominant offensive big men in NBA history. Shaq was the most powerful inside player; Kareem was the most skilled; and Wilt combined both.

[QUOTE=jlauber]IMHO, Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt were BY FAR, the most dominant offensive big men in NBA history. Shaq was the most powerful inside player; Kareem was the most skilled; and Wilt combined both.[/QUOTE]
:cheers: :cheers:

I can agree with that

[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bLocAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JGUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4547,1599737&dq"]Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Jan 8, 1960[/URL]
[I]

'"I was disgusted in college with the slow offenses and stall tactics. College basketball needs some version of the the pro's 24 second rule."

The native Philadelphian observed that one thing he learned quickly in the NBA was that although zone defenses are illegal, he is faced with modified zones every time he plays.

"I was looking forward to the pro style of man-to-man defense, but in my case it's men on man. They sandwich me and drop other defenders off to try and steal the ball. I asked one official why he didn't invoke the no zone ruling and he replied:
[B]
"Too Much Else"[/B]

'"I haven't called a zone in this league in 11 years, and I'm not going to start to do it now. There is too much else going on that bears watching to bother looking for so-called zones."'

Chamberlain, who some feel may become the greatest basketball player of all time, says the theory that two or three good outside shots can break up [/I] [I]a zone doesn't work in his case.[/I]
[I]
"You wouldn't want a better outside shot that our Paul Arizin, but they drop off Paul to hamper me. It adds up to the fact they would rather take a chance on an outside shot than allow me to work inside."

Chamberlain, who relaxes by singing, dancing and playing the bongo drums, refuses to complain about the terrific physical beating he takes. He describes it as a hazard of the game.

"I feel," says Wilt, "that the roughhouse tactics started when some players found out that I was much better than they expected. I get it from all angles. Some grab my shorts and hold me down. Others latch onto an arm, while their teammates go up for a rebound."

[B]
"Paid To Score"[/B]

Retorts Wilt:

"People just don't understand the problems of players like Jack Twyman Cincinnati's league leading scorer and myself. We have to let down on some phases of the game in order to score. We are paid to score. If we don't get out 30-35 points a game there is a good chance our team will lose."

"Take Russell for example. He's a great defensive player because he doesn't have to worry about scoring. His assignment is to get the rebound and block as many shots as he can. Boston has plenty of scorers. If Russell had to score he could average 25 points or more a game easy."'
[/I]

One other point, which I have brought up in other threads...

While I believe that if you could magically transport a 2000 Shaq to 1962, that with the shorter lane, smaller players, and faster pace, that he would have been a 40+ ppg scorer, or perhaps even a 50 ppg scorer...

I just don't believe that Shaq, born some 40 years earlier, and playing in 1962, would have been nearly the same Shaq. Even genetically, he probably would not have been as tall. And with the much more limited knowledge of the overall game, the nutrition of that era, the medical knowledge of that era, and the different physical training of that era (Wilt was among the first great athletes, involved in a major team sport, to lift weights), IMHO, Shaq would probably have been 6-11 300 lb, overweight, and less skilled player.

And, on the flip side...take a Wilt, born in say 1972...and given all the benefits of modern technology, including weight training, medicine, coaches with much more knowledge of the game, better nutrition, and better training...and how much better would he have been? And, if you factor in genetics...perhaps a 7-4, 325-350 lb. athlete beast.

We will never know, of course, but a Wilt, in 1962, would probably have not been nearly the same Chamberlain, had he been playing at his peak in 2002.

[QUOTE]No doubt in my mind that Shaq was harder to stop. As you can see, Wilt could let you off the hook in single coverage because he wouldn't use his size to his advantage as much as Shaq, which by Wilt's admission was a mistake, nor did he have the footwork or ball handling skills to make the same quick moves. [/QUOTE]

'67 was his year in the pivot primarily as a play maker. Double Wilt he'd find the open teammate, all of whom were in constant motion. This game is a bad example, as Wayne Lynch noted in Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champions, the team came out lethargic in the 2nd half of game 4.


Below we can see two fake passes at 4:30 mark followed by a power move to the basket, drawing 4 defenders and finding an open Billy C. We can also see the defensive players with their hands up denying the active cutters.

[URL="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5"]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5[/URL]




[IMG]http://i51.tinypic.com/2uqizuq.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/2qs9ifp.jpg[/IMG]

One would think double teams were less predictable as well due to the motion. Below we can see Russell quickly recover fronting the pivot as well as K.C. coming hard from the baseline. His man, rookie guard Matt Guokas cuts to the front of the rim and Wilt hits him for an easy layup.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpiRo8-aKJc#t=01m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpiRo8-aKJc#t=01m20s[/URL]