MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif[/IMG]


[B]During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s]9 minute mark[/url] - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:[/B]

[INDENT][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - [I][COLOR="DarkRed"]the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession[/COLOR][/I]:[/B]

[INDENT][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]The youtube channel "[COLOR="Red"]Nobody Touches Jordan[/COLOR]" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk]here[/url]) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:[/B]

[INDENT][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:[/B]

[INDENT][I]"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."[/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).[/B]

[INDENT][I]SHAQ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8[/url]
[I]MJ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg[/url][/INDENT]


[I][COLOR="Navy"]However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post[/COLOR][/I] - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.



[B]By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... So in comparison to MJ getting double-teamed 12 times in a single quarter, Lebron was doubled 3 times per game.[/B]

[INDENT][I]"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. [COLOR="Blue"]When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting[/COLOR] (11 percent)".[/I]

[url]http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team[/url][/INDENT]
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Nah, kobe is the most double teamed player.

MJ just apeears to be doubled because he runs into multiple defenders.

[QUOTE=3ball][IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif[/IMG]


Here are gifs from the 1989 ECF, where the Pistons double-teamed MJ (full double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) on 10 of 13 times he touched the ball in the last 9 minutes of Game 6 - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88[/url]


Here's the entire game, queued at the 9 min mark:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s[/url]


If you watch ANY Jordan video, you'll see he's doubled about half the time, and his scoring occurs while running away from a double team or otherwise avoiding/eluding a double (shown above, and more examples [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703595&postcount=91]here[/url]).. MJ is simply the most double-teamed player of all time, not named Wilt... This makes the gap between his stats and everyone else's even more impressive.[/QUOTE]


well, one question, were they hard doubles or soft doubles?

In soft doubles, the "double teamer" acts more as a free roamer, who doesent really try to force a steal or a jumpball. those are much easier to "score against" as in footage, both players above seemed to face those


not quite sure about this though, so i might be wrong.

[QUOTE=NZStreetBaller]

Nah, kobe is the most double teamed player.

[/QUOTE]
Show me a 5 minute stretch in ANY game where Kobe got doubled-teamed every time he caught the ball.

The bigger issue is whether a player's presence hurts or helps other players ability to play to their capacity, since that affects whether the [I]team[/I] can play to capacity..

In Lebron's case, there are stats which show his style doesn't foster as much teamwork as say, Jordan's style.. For example, it's statistical fact that the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all decreased significantly alongside Lebron, while Pippen's and other teammates increased alongside Jordan.. This is statistical [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841]fact[/url].

Also, there was little or no increase in the Heat or Cavs' assist frequency during Lebron's time there, whereas the Bulls' assist frequency increased significantly during MJ's time - again, statistical [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446]fact[/url].. Off-ball players like MJ foster better teamwork - they always have low time of possession and are highly-assisted, so teammates literally have more assist opportunities and playmaking time.

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]

[B]well, one question, were they hard doubles or soft doubles?
[/B]

[/QUOTE]

it says in the OP they were hard doubles, and the [url=http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif]gif[/url] in the OP is obviously a 'full' or 'hard' double:


[QUOTE=3ball]

Here are gifs from the 1989 ECF, where the Pistons double-teamed MJ ([B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"]full double-teams to get the ball out of his hands[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]) on 10 of 13 times he touched the ball in the last 9 minutes of Game 6 - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88[/url]


Here's the entire game, queued at the 9 min mark:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s[/url]


If you watch ANY Jordan video, you'll see he's doubled about half the time, and his scoring occurs while running away from a double team or otherwise avoiding/eluding a double (shown above, and more examples [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703595&postcount=91]here[/url]).. MJ is simply the most double-teamed player of all time, not named Wilt... This makes the gap between his stats and everyone else's even more impressive.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3ball]Show me a 5 minute stretch in ANY game where Kobe got doubled-teamed every time he caught the ball.

The OP shows you a stretch of 9 minutes where MJ got doubled 10 of 13 times he had the ball (FULL double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch.. Here are gifs of all 10 double teams and a link to the game, queued to the 9 min mark:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s[/url][/QUOTE]

2 things.

1, it didnt seem like he was doubled as much from before the 9 minute mark
2, yeah, theyw ere hard doubles, so this is very impressive. Despite that, I could contend that his playstyle might have helped him eluded double teams

Shaquille O'Neal

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]

2 things.

1) it didnt seem like he was doubled as much before the 9 minute mark

[/QUOTE]
Right - the Pistons didn't turn on the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s]"Jordan Rules"[/url] and start doubling everytime until the 9 minute mark.

Before that - at the start of the 4th - MJ scored on Rodman twice and the Pistons took a timeout... After that timeout (around the 9 minute mark), they started double-teaming MJ every single time for the rest of the game... 10 out of 13 times they doubled him, and the 3 times they didn't was because MJ shot it immediately.

Again, all 10 double teams are shown here: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88[/url]


[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/ZQEqEe.gif[/IMG]


2) yeah, they were hard doubles, so this is very impressive. Despite that, I could contend that [B]his playstyle might have helped him eluded double teams[/B]


[/QUOTE]
Agreed - in the last 24 games of the 1989 season, Collins started MJ at point guard... In the playoffs, he returned MJ to shooting guard, but still had MJ run the point in the 4th.. Unfortunately, this ball-dominant style at the most crucial parts of the game allowed MJ to get doubled incessantly... It played into the "Jordan Rules" perfectly.

Collins should've had MJ playing off-ball like the first 3 quarters and catching it on the move or on the wing in a PRE-dribble, stationary position (the triple-threat position, seen above - notice how Rodman has no chance vs. MJ's triple-threat).. The lower dribble-time and overall time-of-possession of this style lowers the possibility that MJ can be doubled as often or in time to get the ball out of his hands.

It was a major blunder by Collins to have MJ play point in the 4th against the Jordan Rules - it allowed him to get doubled incessantly.. It's not like MJ is Lebron or something, where his bad 1-on-1 efficiency and midrange allow teams to let him go 1-on-1 all alone like Kerr did in the Finals... No way... MJ's 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency was elite - you couldn't leave him all alone against a single defender.
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Actually statisticlly he's not close to being the most double teamed player of all time.

That's actually Shaq. Stats were released a couple years ago.

[QUOTE=NZStreetBaller]Nah, kobe is the most double teamed player.

MJ just apeears to be doubled because he runs into multiple defenders.[/QUOTE]




lol at you turn the other way around. It is kobe likes to run into multiple defenders or dribble too long to attract help defense. MJ always know how to dodge or makes the move before help defense comes

[quote=flpiii]

I'm not sure if you clicked the link, but it separates into contested and open shots. So you can compare apples with apples.

[/QUOTE]
Vantage's definition of "[I]contested[/I]" (within 3 feet with hands up) skews their data, because a much higher proportion of 2-pointers are shot with defenders DRAPED ALL OVER with significant physical contact, whereas that rarely happens or 3-pointers.

But yeah, I'm sure many 3-pointers are "[I]contested[/I]" based on Vantage's criteria of the defender being within 3 feet with hands-up.. :rolleyes: .. [I][COLOR="Navy"]But let's compare the proportion/frequency of fouls and AND1's on 2-pointers and 3-pointers - that will give us an idea of how much more heavily contested 2 pointers are.[/COLOR][/I]


[quote=flpiii]


But the article contains numerical proof that *contested* threes on a per shot basis are more valuable than *open* mid range shots (again, using the same definition of contested vs open for all shot types).



[/QUOTE]
The argument isn't whether 3-pointers are more efficient - everyone knows they provide an extra point... The point I'm making is that 2-point attempts such as paint and midrange shots have far heavier contests than 3-point attempts - 3-pointers are almost never attempted with the kind of physical contact or borderline AND1 situations that are [I]standard[/I] for 2-pointers.

Players have always been willing to take 2-pointers while enduring heavier contests than they'd be willing to endure for 3-pointers, which meant that the 2-point shooting eras didn't need to run as much offense to get quality looks as today's game.

The standard of settling for more heavily-contested 2-pointers in previous eras made pace faster than today's game, where teams must run more offense to get quality 3-point looks.

Most doubled perimeter player probs

[QUOTE=3ball]Show me a 5 minute stretch in ANY game where Kobe got doubled-teamed every time he caught the ball.

The OP shows you a stretch of 9 minutes where MJ got doubled 10 of 13 times he had the ball (FULL double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch.. Here are gifs of all 10 double teams and a link to the game, queued to the 9 min mark:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s[/url][/QUOTE]

You cant judge most double teamed player over an entire career by a 9 minute stretch..... btw you know that good off the ball movement especially in an equal opportunity offense can prevent double teaming from ever happening....

Not sure if MJ is THE most doubled player ever, but he's certainly the most doubled perimeter player ever hands down.

Only reason I hesitate stating he's the most double teamed player in general, is because it's easier to collapse defenders in the paint. Specially when the paint was more crowded.

And as already mentioned, MJ's style made it harder to double more than a big camping in the paint since he moved around often, passed and cut efficiently, and was simply too fast.

But when it comes to perimeter players, MJ by a good margin.

still waiting for that empirical evidence, OP