09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER


Mo was growing by leaps and bounds every year, and his peak stats in 2009 were part of this yearly growth, but then injuries destroyed his career thereafter.

But it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).

Similar to Curry in 2016, Lebron was supposed to win the title in 2009, and Mo even outproduced 16' Klay... Infact, the CONSENSUS was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that Curry did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.. Ultimately, Curry has always needed less talent because his skillset produces better chemistry and ball movement.. It's intuitive..

09 Lebron outproduced ‘92 Jordan.

16 Klay played defense too.

Curry choked in 2016 facing a healthy Lebron.

Curry also reduced Klay Thompson to a spot up role.

Curry also reduced Steve Kerr to a g-league level coach.

Curry also cried on the phone to KD and asked KD to help him beat Lebron.

It's intuitive...

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025105]09 Lebron outproduced ‘92 Jordan.[/QUOTE]


Since dominant 1st options take the biggest chunk of the shots, their scoring style (aka ball-dominant vs off-ball) dictates brand of ball, fits, ball movement and team chemistry, [I]so stats aren't the only consideration - the method of achieving the stats matters.[/I]

Otoh, 2nd options are essentially robots that follow the brand of ball dictated by the 1st option, so their stats can be compared directly.

And again, it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime cut short by injuries because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025109][B]Since dominant 1st options take the biggest chunk of the shots, their scoring style (aka ball-dominant vs off-ball) dictates brand of ball, fits, ball movement and team chemistry,[/B] [I]so stats aren't the only consideration - the method of achieving the stats matters.[/I]

Otoh, 2nd options are essentially robots that follow the brand of ball dictated by the 1st option, so their stats can be compared directly.

And again, it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime cut short by injuries because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).[/QUOTE]

Yes I get it, guys who aren't first options are all the same. Makes sense.

But Mo had by far the best year of his career based on the numbers you gave so doesn't it seem like the fit was great for him? No? Playoffs happened and the lack of defense and being dumb and severely undersized hurt them? No?

Fair enough.

+1

plus mo could handle the rock and pass

klay was better defender obviously but klay’s defense is historically overrated

plus mo had a modern day skillet that was in rarity back in 09’. He was one of tlhe elite guards of the Eastern Conference.

why do you think bron kept asking for more playmakers on the lakers?

he missed mo.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15025121]+1

plus mo could handle the rock and pass

klay was better defender obviously but klay’s defense is historically overrated

plus mo had a modern day skillet that was in rarity back in 09’.[B] He was one of tlhe elite guards of the Eastern Conference.[/B]

why do you think bron kept asking for more playmakers on the lakers?

he missed mo.[/QUOTE]

Don't be a fool. If Mo Williams doesn't get traded to the Cavs literally none of us would ever remember who he was.

Fvck outta here with this "elite" shit :lol

It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15025126]It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.[/QUOTE]

Solid exercise.

Given the numbers from the OP...'08 Mo Williams (before Cavs obviously) and '06 Smush Parker are not too dissimilar.

He was a God though that Lebron NEEDED.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15025126]It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.[/QUOTE]

+1

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15025106]16 Klay played defense too.[/QUOTE]


Barely.

2016 Kyrie killed him with bogut and dray out. Literally went off with Klay on him as primary defender.

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5f/2f/c4/5f2fc44c326a3bb4c2cbeee980263d06.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025116]

doesn't it seem like the [B]fit was great[/B] for him? No?


[/quote]


Mo's spacing was the perfect fit for LeDrive, which is why Lebron's stats skyrocketed across the board to MVP status - Mo's spacing made Lebron better and added 21 wins, while Pippen's bricklaying would be a horrible fit..

Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't space the floor or play that role, so Pippen can't elevate Lebron to 60 wins + MVP like elite shooters did in 09' and 13' (Mo and Ray)..




[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025116]

[B]Playoffs happened
[/B]

[/QUOTE]


Mo's spacing produced the best chemistry that LeDrive ever had, but it still required Lebron to carry the scoring load in the playoffs, which Lebron can't do against top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels)..

Accordingly, he lost with 18 o 38% from Mo, while MJ always won with that from Pippen and worse team defenses..



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025116]

and the lack of defense


[/quote]


The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense and a reputed defense that locked up teams throughout the 07' and 08' Playoffs - this included the 08' Celtics, who were locked up so much that they nearly lost despite 26 on 35% and 5 TO's from Lebron.



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025116]

and being dumb


[/quote]


Lebron had the dumbest defensive blunder ever by guarding Courtney Lee to save energy, instead of his own position that was controlling the action (Hedo).

This defensive blunder cost the series on it's own, but Lebron's 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4 also swung the series, along with excessive ball-dominance at high scoring levels and the worst clutch-time play of any all-timer - Lebron played well for 43 minutes but then disappeared in clutch-time, which lost three 4th quarter leads.. Lebron became a 12 TO per game player in clutch-time.



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025116]

severely undersized hurt them? No?


[/quote]


What team are you talking about?.. The Cavs were huge.. And the only reason the Cavs lacked any size was because Lebron decided not to provide the size/length to guard Hedo and Rashard.

After the upset loss in 2009, Lebron was upset again in 2010 despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite - this is a mini version of adding KD to a 73-win team.. Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball.

[QUOTE=tpols;15025132]Barely.

2016 Kyrie killed him with bogut and dray out. Literally went off with Klay on him as primary defender.

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5f/2f/c4/5f2fc44c326a3bb4c2cbeee980263d06.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This is how I know you are a troll. The game is very easily watchable for anyone to see the facts.

You choose to ignore them. I would say you're better than this but you're really not. This is par for the course for trollpols.

For anyone wondering:

Kyrie scores 11 points on Klay as the primary defender 28 vs other defenders. Two pts came off free throws.

This after the other thread where you +1 me saying Kobe wasn't given all of Reggies and some other players points when they were matched up. I don't care to find the response but you know which one it was which is all that matters.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025133]Mo's spacing was the perfect fit for LeDrive, which is why Lebron's stats skyrocketed across the board to MVP status - Mo's spacing made Lebron better and added 21 wins, while Pippen's bricklaying would be a horrible fit..

Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't space the floor or play that role, so Pippen can't elevate Lebron to 60 wins + MVP like elite shooters did in 09' and 13' (Mo and Ray)..







Mo's spacing produced the best chemistry that LeDrive ever had, but it still required Lebron to carry the scoring load in the playoffs, which Lebron can't do against top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels)..

Accordingly, he lost with 18 o 38% from Mo, while MJ always won with that from Pippen and worse team defenses..






The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense and a reputed defense that locked up teams throughout the 07' and 08' Playoffs - this included the 08' Celtics, who were locked up so much that they nearly lost despite 26 on 35% and 5 TO's from Lebron.






Lebron had the dumbest defensive blunder ever by guarding Courtney Lee to save energy, instead of his own position that was controlling the action (Hedo).

This defensive blunder cost the series on it's own, but Lebron's 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4 also swung the series, along with excessive ball-dominance at high scoring levels and the worst clutch-time play of any all-timer - Lebron played well for 43 minutes but then disappeared in clutch-time, which lost three 4th quarter leads.. Lebron became a 12 TO per game player in clutch-time.






What team are you talking about?.. The Cavs were huge.. And the only reason the Cavs lacked any size was because Lebron decided not to provide the size/length to guard Hedo and Rashard.

After the upset loss in 2009, Lebron was upset again in 2010 despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite - this is a mini version of adding KD to a 73-win team.. Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball.[/QUOTE]

You actually took the time to do this?!

Jesus Christ dude you better be paid. You're objectively wrong but I respect the time I guess?