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What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Everyone pretty much has Bird higher than those two by a few spots or so and I can make no valid argument as to why Bird was better than those two.
It can't be rings. It can't be individual accomplishments. It can't be who was better during their primes. It can't be longevity.
What is it?
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
besides the fact that Bird is a better shooter, better passer, better scorer, better leader, more clutch, more skilled, just as good rebounder?
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Carbine]Everyone pretty much has Bird higher than those two by a few spots or so and I can make no valid argument as to why Bird was better than those two.
It can't be rings. It can't be individual accomplishments. It can't be who was better during their primes. It can't be longevity.
What is it?[/QUOTE]
Bird dominated for literally all the years he was playing, save for maybe his last. And the years he was consecutive MVP, I think it was a prime greater than either Shaq's or Duncan's.
Bird's best years were on par if not better than Jordan's. No kidding.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Bird dominated for literally all the years he was playing, save for maybe his last. And the years he was consecutive MVP, I think it was a prime greater than either Shaq's or Duncan's.
Bird's best years were on par if not better than Jordan's. No kidding.[/QUOTE]
Bird was the best player in the 80s(the goat era).
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Rekindled]besides the fact that Bird is a better shooter, better passer, better scorer, better leader, more clutch, more skilled, just as good rebounder?[/QUOTE]
Bird is not a better scorer than Shaq. Shaq was a better scorer and both Duncan and O'Neal are far better rebounders and much better defensively.
I rank Bird over Duncan, but a lot of your post is false.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE]Bird dominated for literally all the years he was playing, save for maybe his last. And the years he was consecutive MVP, I think it was a prime greater than either Shaq's or Duncan's.
Bird's best years were on par if not better than Jordan's. No kidding.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe that last part.
Bird would have to be an immensely better passer, rebounder & overall offensive player than Jordan was to make up for the huge disparity between their defensive impact.
And honestly, Jordan was a better offensive player, so Birds advantages in being a rebounder and passer were not huge enough to compensate for the advantages Jordan has over Bird.
And being "great" has something to do with how good you were at your best, but I think longevity plays a bigger role in greatness than in discussions of "who was better?"
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Carbine]I don't believe that last part. [/QUOTE]
Why do you ask then? :oldlol:
I'm a Laker fan, so whn I say Bird was possibly on par with Jordan in his best years... Magic was not, and you know there was a rivalry.... so this Bird guy must have been pretty good...
It is personal preference though. Nowadays it is trendy to crown MJ as the clear cut GOAT. Guess what, he isn't. There were a few players not any worse than him. Kareem is another example.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Another thing about Bird to take into account is the MJ factor.
I'm a Bulls fan, and watching any close Bulls game (that MJ played in) I KNEW we were going to win. I also got that feeling with Kobe right after Shaq left, and with Peyton Manning this year.. Bird had it. Duncan and Shaq never did.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Factor in the Eras and that's why. Bird may have lost to Magic most of the time, but similar to Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt Losing to Russell makes his rankings go higher if anything, and the same thing goes for Bird losing to Magic.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234][B]]Bird is not a better scorer than Shaq. Shaq was a better scorer and both Duncan and O'Neal are far better rebounders [/B]and much better defensively.
I rank Bird over Duncan, but a lot of your post is false.[/QUOTE]
bird and shaq right now both have career ppg of 24. shaq's gonna drop off after this year.
shaq career rpg = 11 , bird career rpg= 10. I dont see how 1 more rebound makes you a far better rebounder considering that shaq is like 4 inches taller than bird)
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Rekindled]bird and shaq right now both have career ppg of 24. shaq's gonna drop off after this year.
shaq career rpg = 11 , bird career rpg= 10. I dont see how 1 more rebound makes you a far better rebounder considering that shaq is like 4 inches taller than bird)[/QUOTE]
Not to mention Shaq's mass alone is far higher than Bird.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
It's not personal perference though. As good a player as Bird was, Jordan was better if we're strictly talking prime vs. prime.
Jordan was a better offensive and defensive player. Bird being the better passer/hustler/rebounder.... but clearly not enough to make up the difference.
[QUOTE]Factor in the Eras and that's why. Bird may have lost to Magic most of the time, but similar to Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt Losing to Russell makes his rankings go higher if anything, and the same thing goes for Bird losing to Magic.[/QUOTE]
Why would Bird losing to Magic/Lakers make him greater? That makes no sense to me. Wilt losing to Russell didn't make him rank higher - it's really the only thing keeping him from being the GOAT. He didn't embellish "the secret" nearly as much as Russell, thus why he lost more times than not.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
I think we are all finding that the differences in time periods and game styles makes this an impossible comparison.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
I hated Bird in the 80's, but give the man some respect, he was a pure clutch beast.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=ArizaAttack24]Factor in the Eras and that's why. Bird may have lost to Magic most of the time, but similar to Wilt Chamberlain, [B]Wilt Losing to Russell makes his rankings go higher if anything[/B], and the same thing goes for Bird losing to Magic.[/QUOTE]
The difference is Wilt consistently choked; Bird and Magic may have lost but they weren't choking every year.
The era point is interesting. If eras are such a big deal, though, why are the players who are most commonly listed as #1 and #2 players whose best years came during the 70's and 90's? How often do you see Bird or Magic listed as the GOAT?
Marketing is a big factor. The NBA resurrected itself behind marketing Bird and Magic. Shaq never had such a marketing campaign behind him. He wasn't even marketed as Jordan's successor. They were always looking for perimeter players like Penny, Hill, and later Kobe and T Mac as the new big ticket.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Here is the thing.
You can't say Bird has more accomplishments than Duncan or Shaq.
You can't say Bird has better longevity than Duncan or Shaq.
You can say Bird was better in his prime than Duncan, but not Shaq.
So how exactly is Bird clearly above those two again on the greatness scale?
I'm not even trying to argue one over the other, but to me... it's nearly impossible to come up with a valid argument that stands up to critisism in favor of Bird being clearly greater.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Watch some ****ing Larry Bird. He was a perfect basketball player.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[quote=Carbine]Here is the thing.
You can't say Bird has more accomplishments than Duncan or Shaq.
You can't say Bird has better longevity than Duncan or Shaq.
You can say Bird was better in his prime than Duncan, but not Shaq.
So how exactly is Bird clearly above those two again on the greatness scale?
I'm not even trying to argue one over the other, but to me... it's nearly impossible to come up with a valid argument that stands up to critisism in favor of Bird being clearly greater.[/quote]
He [U]was[/U] better in his prime. And he had numerous individual and team accomplishments against the best players and teams ever.
This thread is a disgrace.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Rekindled]bird and shaq right now both have career ppg of 24. shaq's gonna drop off after this year.
shaq career rpg = 11 , bird career rpg= 10. I dont see how 1 more rebound makes you a far better rebounder considering that shaq is like 4 inches taller than bird)[/QUOTE]
This is just dishonest, and you know it. Bird played 12 seasons, while Shaq is currently in his 18th. You're penalizing Shaq for playing a long time.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Rekindled]bird and shaq right now both have career ppg of 24. shaq's gonna drop off after this year.
shaq career rpg = 11 , bird career rpg= 10. I dont see how 1 more rebound makes you a far better rebounder considering that shaq is like 4 inches taller than bird)[/QUOTE]
Shaq's played more years than Bird hence more decline years so that explains career ppg.
Both have a very similar peak ppg season with Bird slightly edging Shaq 29.9 to 29.7, but Shaq had 3 seasons over 29 ppg compared to Bird's 1, 5 seasons over 28 ppg compared to Bird's 3, 10 consecutive over 26 ppg compared to Bird's 3 total. Shaq also won 2 scoring titles compared to Bird's 0 and Shaq was top 2 in scoring 6 times, top 3 eight times and top 4 nine times. Bird, on the otherhand was top 2 just once, top 3 just twice and top 4 just four times.
As far as rebounding, Shaq had three seasons over 13 rpg, five over 12 rpg and ten seasons with atleast 11 rpg(Bird's career high). And that was with Shaq playing at a considerably slow pace meaning less rebounds available.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=G-train]He [U]was[/U] better in his prime. And he had numerous individual and team accomplishments against the best players and teams ever.
This thread is a disgrace.[/QUOTE]
This is a good thread. Shaq has a strong case over Bird although I don't see a case for Duncan over Bird, unless you only look at winning (4 rings vs. 3 and Duncan did it with scrubs in 03'). The OP should have included Magic in this too since Magic and Bird are always ranked together.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]As far as rebounding, Shaq had three seasons over 13 rpg, five over 12 rpg and ten seasons with atleast 11 rpg(Bird's career high). And that was with Shaq playing at a considerably slow pace meaning less rebounds available.[/QUOTE]
And Bird had Parish and McHale for some of those rebounds. :cheers:
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[quote=ShaqAttack3234]
As far as rebounding, Shaq had three seasons over 13 rpg, five over 12 rpg and ten seasons with atleast 11 rpg(Bird's career high). And that was with Shaq playing at a considerably slow pace meaning less rebounds available.[/quote]
Rebounding? Bird was a 3/4 man that averaged 10.
So you are gonna say that Shaq was better, because he averaged more rebounds as a [U]centre?[/U]
Get the FU[I]C[/I]K outta here.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
look at the physical gifts shaq has and compare it to what larry bird had to work with.
shaq in his prime was basically playing with cheat codes, while larry was playing with one arm tied behind his back.
larry was co captain of the dream team for a reason. something shaq never did.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Rekindled]besides the fact that Bird is a better shooter, better passer, better scorer, better leader, more clutch, more skilled, just as good rebounder?[/QUOTE]
[B]Same reasons why Barkley is better than Duncan or Malone (this one even clear in the EFF; PER and Statistical Plus/Minus department and the head to heads when BOTH where healthy, not one healthy and the other not)
Shaq and Duncan as was Barkley better Impact Players but not Better All Around Skilled at Making Others Better: Reason why Bird has one of the Highest Statistical Plus/Minus Ever.[/B]
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=G-train]Rebounding? Bird was a 3/4 man that averaged 10.
So you are gonna say that Shaq was better, because he averaged more rebounds as a [U]centre?[/U]
Get the FU[I]C[/I]K outta here.[/QUOTE]
I said he was a better rebounder dumbass as in he could(and did) grab more rebounds. That was in response to the incorrect statement that Bird was the better rebounder. I didn't say that's why Shaq was the better player.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]The difference is Wilt consistently choked; Bird and Magic may have lost but they weren't choking every year.
The era point is interesting. If eras are such a big deal, though, why are the players who are most commonly listed as #1 and #2 players whose best years came during the 70's and 90's? How often do you see Bird or Magic listed as the GOAT?
Marketing is a big factor. The NBA resurrected itself behind marketing Bird and Magic. Shaq never had such a marketing campaign behind him. He wasn't even marketed as Jordan's successor. They were always looking for perimeter players like Penny, Hill, and later Kobe and T Mac as the new big ticket.[/QUOTE]
Would you be able to blame someone who lost to someone who just cannot lose? Would you be able to blame someone who just absolutely knew everything about yourself, your weaknesses, your life, everything? Couldn't blame Wilt in that situation, Russell was just built to stop Wilt from creating a dynasty and created a dynasty of his own.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I said he was a better rebounder dumbass as in he could(and did) grab more rebounds. That was in response to the incorrect statement that Bird was the better rebounder. I didn't say that's why Shaq was the better player.[/QUOTE]
Shaq was a poor rebounder for his size and athleticism if anything, I truly hope you don't believe Shaq is better than Bird, it would be worse than your Dwight Howard love.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=ArizaAttack24]Would you be able to blame someone who lost to someone who just cannot lose? Would you be able to blame someone who just absolutely knew everything about yourself, your weaknesses, your life, everything? Couldn't blame Wilt in that situation, Russell was just built to stop Wilt from creating a dynasty and created a dynasty of his own.[/QUOTE]
If Wilt was as good as some allege none of those excuses would be needed. It isn't as if he were playing with scrubs and getting blown out. Russell was 10-0 in Game 7's and 8 of those games were decided by 5 points or less (the two double digit wins were not against Wilt). Russell was able to muster that extra needed to win; Wilt couldn't. The year Wilt averaged 50 ppg in the regular season he averaged 35 in the playoffs and scored 22 in Game 7. If Wilt scored only half his usual production when it counted most his team would have won. Wilt's partisans blame bad luck for all his close losses but the real blame lies in Wilt being the only top 10 player of all-time to see his production decline sharply in the playoffs. Everyone else stayed about even (a feat given the fact you face tougher defenses in the playoffs) or improved.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=ArizaAttack24]Shaq was a poor rebounder for his size and athleticism if anything, I truly hope you don't believe Shaq is better than Bird, it would be worse than your Dwight Howard love.[/QUOTE]
13-14 rpg and 15+ rpg for 2 back to back title runs isn't a poor reboudner for ANYONE's size and athleticism, kid. And who cares even if it was? He was still one of the best rebounders in the league for over a decade.
And Shaq you can easily make a case for Shaq being better than Bird. Watch.
More titles
Superior longevity
Much better finals performances
Better scorer
Shaq also gave his teams a lot more with his rebounding, shot blocking and defense than Bird did.
You were saying...
And :oldlol: at you saying I love Dwight Howard. I don't love him and have him rated correctly at 5th best in the league and the best center in the league.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
people have to remember 90% of ISH never saw bird play. If you didn't see Bird play, you just can't understand because the numbers just don't encapsulate who and what Larry Bird was. Let me explain, if Shaq' had Larry Bird' work ethic and heart. He'd have smashed all of Wilt' record. And thats real talk.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Because Bird could dominate in more areas of the game. people talk about Bird not being a great defender but his hustle had just as much impact as Shaq's or Duncan's defense.
He's arguably as good a half court passer as there ever was.
He was ten times the outside and mid-range shooter and one of the great FT shooters of all time. you couldn't foul him at the end of a game or ever.
he was absolute money. who would you fear most in a game 7. Shaq, Duncan or Bird?
It's ridiculous to say Shaq was a better scorer when Bird could score in so many ways plus you have to count his assists.
Bird averaged 29.9/6/9 at 31 years old while shooting .916 from the FT line. it doesn't get much better than that.
When looking at rebounds you can't just look at the numbers. you have to look at how and when they got rebounds. Bird got 11 boards a night without playing under the basket. centers have a huge advantage in rebound position. Bird hustled for boards.
Oh and I saw Bird's career from the beginning to the end.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
The smaller (even though Bird's around 6'9, not exactly Earl Boykins) player generally always has the advantage over a big post. Whether or not they're "better" players, they're much more complete players. Shaq could back down guys all day, put up 25+ on high 50s %, but when that's not coupled with perimeter games people just don't see them as "as good" a player.
I don't think a post based 7 footer will ever be considered the GOAT by the general public. I can't even think of what he'd have to accomplish to be.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=allball]Because Bird could dominate in more areas of the game. people talk about Bird not being a great defender but his hustle had just as much impact as Shaq's or Duncan's defense.
He's arguably as good a half court passer as there ever was.
He was ten times the outside and mid-range shooter and one of the great FT shooters of all time. you couldn't foul him at the end of a game or ever.
he was absolute money. who would you fear most in a game 7. Shaq, Duncan or Bird?
It's ridiculous to say Shaq was a better scorer when Bird could score in so many ways plus you have to count his assists.
Bird averaged 29.9/6/9 at 31 years old while shooting .916 from the FT line. it doesn't get much better than that.
When looking at rebounds you can't just look at the numbers. you have to look at how and when they got rebounds. Bird got 11 boards a night without playing under the basket. centers have a huge advantage in rebound position. Bird hustled for boards.
Oh and I saw Bird's career from the beginning to the end.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense. Bird is great but I doubt he'd do what he did now.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Celts34] Let me explain, if Shaq' had Larry Bird' work ethic and heart. He'd have smashed all of Wilt' record. And thats real talk.[/QUOTE]
I read somewhere that Bird quit coaching when he realized that his team didn't work as hard as he did to improve his game.
Anyway, you are talking about Shaq's potential, not exactly what he did on the court. Especially in his prime. His resume is pretty good in basketball and it is comparable to Bird. Probably even better.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
nothing, its only his white skin
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Big#50]Nonsense. Bird is great but I doubt he'd do what he did now.[/QUOTE]
Hilarious. This guy played in the same league as a young MJ, Dominique, Antoine Carr, Dr. J, Worthy, etc.
Just ridiculous athleticism there. When someone like Dirk who literally does EVERY SINGLE THING worse than Bird can win an MVP and dominate the league, this shows me that Bird would be just fine. Maybe his prime would be extended with the better trainers, shoes, etc. nowadays.
Get out of here with that.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=Micku]I read somewhere that Bird quit coaching when he realized that his team didn't work as hard as he did to improve his game.
Anyway, you are talking about Shaq's potential, not exactly what he did on the court. Especially in his prime. His resume is pretty good in basketball and it is comparable to Bird. Probably even better.[/QUOTE]
Fail. Bird won 3 straight MVP's,something noone else has ever done btw, in what everyone considers the height of the NBA. Shaq is the Larry Holmes of the NBA, he had a great career, but his prime coincided with no other great big man to challenge him(some of this was due to Zo' kidney ailment). Just like Larry Holmes prime in boxing, where he dominated everyone, but there were no great boxers to challenge him.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
[QUOTE=sergiorodriguez]nothing, its only his white skin[/QUOTE]
Kill yourself immediately.