There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time

[SIZE="4"]His mind. [/SIZE]

His mind which lead to relentless determination and will to win. Heart! He had it.... and you can't teach it.

Lebron will go down as one of the greatest of all time. But thus far, I have not seen this quality from him. Put MJ on the Cavs and they win that series. Or atleast take the Celts to a game 7.

Kobe is close but Kobe failed to show up a few times as well when they should have won it all. MJ never failed to deliver. The most fierce and ferocious competitor the game has ever known with the possible exception of one Bill Russell.

and scottie pippen, and phil jackson, and steve kerr, and horace grant, and rodman...

[QUOTE=Funnyfuka]and scottie pippen, and phil jackson, and steve kerr, and horace grant, and rodman...[/QUOTE]
So hes the best individual player ever because of the players he played with?

[QUOTE=TheTruth11][SIZE="4"]His mind. [/SIZE]

His mind which lead to relentless determination and will to win. Heart! He had it.... and you can't teach it.

Lebron will go down as one of the greatest of all time. But thus far, I have not seen this quality from him. Put MJ on the Cavs and they win that series. Or atleast take the Celts to a game 7.

Kobe is close but Kobe failed to show up a few times as well when they should have won it all. MJ never failed to deliver. The most fierce and ferocious competitor the game has ever known with the possible exception of one Bill Russell.[/QUOTE]

kobe never had the team Mj had. MJ had everything u could want thats why hes the greatest... Kobes been the closest and Lebron is not even close yet imo

MJ was obsessed with winning. That is probably the reason why he was so good. He never stopped trying to improve his game because he wanted to be perfect. He always wanted to destroy his opponents. That's not secret. But MJ has failed a lot of times to win it all. Basketball is a team sport. Like KG said, no matter how good the player is, you are only a piece to the puzzle.

[quote=RazorBaLade] kobe never had the team Mj had. MJ had everything u could want thats why hes the greatest... Kobes been the closest and Lebron is not even close yet imo [/quote]

Well, Phil Jackson likes bigs. He prefer bigs. I think he feels like his system is more complete with bigs. Kobe's team is probably one of the most talented teams in the NBA. They have balance, but they don't have the competitiveness nature to destroy their opponents.

[QUOTE=TheTruth11][SIZE="4"]His mind. [/SIZE]

His mind which lead to relentless determination and will to win. Heart! He had it.... and you can't teach it.

Lebron will go down as one of the greatest of all time. But thus far, I have not seen this quality from him. [B]Put MJ on the Cavs and they win that series. [/B] Or atleast take the Celts to a game 7.

Kobe is close but Kobe failed to show up a few times as well when they should have won it all. MJ never failed to deliver. The most fierce and ferocious competitor the game has ever known with the possible exception of one Bill Russell.[/QUOTE]
Completely agree, and I have no doubt in my mind Jordan would have won with these Cavs against Celtics.

Jordan on the cavs wouldn't have won the series, they caves don't have another player who can create their own shot.

[QUOTE=TAZORAC]Jordan on the cavs wouldn't have won the series, they caves don't have another player who can create their own shot.[/QUOTE]
Mo and Jamison can

[QUOTE=magnax1]So hes the best individual player ever because of the players he played with?[/QUOTE]

He didn't become a consistent winner until he had better talent around him and a strong willed coach who brought a winning mindset and system with him. Lebron has some talent around him, but he needs that strong willed and talented coach with a system.

yes one reason :
[B][SIZE="4"][SIZE="3"]ESPN[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B]

I think everybody is overrating Jordan's supporting cast. Aside from Pippen, the rest were role players and this includes Rodman. Rodman was a role player, a great one in rebounding and defending!

The thing is, they knew how to play their role.

I would say 70% of the Bulls success was because of Jordan. Th other 30% goes to Pippen, supporting cast and coaching staff.

You'll think that Pippen, Phil and the supporting cast would have been beaten Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc without Jordan?

In fact, I believe the Knicks took out the Bulls in '94 when MJ was playing minor league baseball.

Jordan from 1986-1998 is/was the greatest player of all-times. He didn't win any championships in the late 80's but his greatness was already there.
He dropped 63 on Bird and the Celtics at the old Boston Garden. His team lost but his greatness was there.

Jordan's talented supporting cast only added championship to his greatness. They didn't make him great because he was already great.

[QUOTE=RazorBaLade]kobe never had the team Mj had. MJ had everything u could want thats why hes the greatest... Kobes been the closest and Lebron is not even close yet imo[/QUOTE]

MJ never had a decent centre by his side his whole career. Just saying...

[QUOTE=Manute for Ever!]MJ never had a [B]good [/B]centre by his side his whole career. Just saying...[/QUOTE]

To be fair, Cartwright and Bison Dele, even Luc to some extent, were pretty serviceable.

Gotta agree.

Jordan went to the Finals 6 times, and he was not denied a single time.

That sh*t is still incredible to me, even today.

[QUOTE=AK47DR91]I think everybody is overrating Jordan's supporting cast. Aside from Pippen, the rest were role players and this includes Rodman. Rodman was a role player, a great one in rebounding and defending!

The thing is, they knew how to play their role.

I would say 70% of the Bulls success was because of Jordan. Th other 30% goes to Pippen, supporting cast and coaching staff.

You'll think that Pippen, Phil and the supporting cast would have been beaten Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc without Jordan?

In fact, I believe the Knicks took out the Bulls in '94 when MJ was playing minor league baseball.
[/QUOTE]

Roundball is going to chew you out when he reads that. Just thought I should warn you now.

the bulls cast were all role players. like a bunch of glorified matt bonner's. you're an idiot if you think MJ had players of gasol, odom, bynums caliber combined. even pippen and kukoc don't make up for kobe's supporting cast relatively speaking.

MJ had the will of fire. i agree its what separates him from lebron in this series, MJ would have made better decisions and passes for easier buckets. lebron just doesn't have that fire all of the time like MJ did, and kobe has a little bit of it but not on MJ's level at all.

theres no overrating MJ, considering he could be the greatest athlete ever. not just NBA, and a lot of that has to do with his will.

One thing about MJ, specifically during the championship years, was that he never ever let you down. Guys like Mike Tyson, Kobe, even Tiger Woods seemed human at times, but MJ always pulled the rabbit out of the hat. He was like a real superhero, who even if he lost at the start, always won in the end.

[QUOTE=TheTruth11][SIZE="4"]His mind. [/SIZE]
MJ never failed to deliver. The most fierce and ferocious competitor the game has ever known with the possible exception of one Bill Russell.[/QUOTE]
No one is never failed to deliver, growing up with ESPN will get you that thought... don't forget MJ failed in 1995, the Bulls was killed by Magic; even Russell lost twice, one to Bob Petit and the other one to Wilt, don't you forget that dude, MJ is not God and certainly he is not the greatest player of all time, he definitely is in the discusion of the GOAT joining Wilt, Russell and KAJ.

[QUOTE=Collie]One thing about MJ, specifically during the championship years, was that he never ever let you down. Guys like Mike Tyson, Kobe, even Tiger Woods seemed human at times, but MJ always pulled the rabbit out of the hat. He was like a real superhero, who even if he lost at the start, always won in the end.[/QUOTE]

Spot on. :cheers:

[QUOTE=Collie]One thing about MJ, specifically during the championship years, was that he never ever let you down. Guys like Mike Tyson, Kobe, even Tiger Woods seemed human at times, but MJ always pulled the rabbit out of the hat. He was like a real superhero, who even if he lost at the start, always won in the end.[/QUOTE]

this is what the NBA will never see again, the way the current NBA is cultured, the players care too much about their image now "oh if i take 30 shots and miss 20 i am gonna look so bad so i might as well keep passing." As much as i dislike kobe its gonna be a sad day when he leaves the NBA cuz he is the last player left in the NBA who isn't afraid to go 10-30, who isn't scared to take the last shot. Talent will always be there but the Mental toughness/heart in the players is on a steep decline, Lebron showed this today.

Marketing and timing.

Marketing and timing.

[QUOTE=monkeypox]Marketing and timing.[/QUOTE]

And this why I hardly ever come into the NBA forum anymore

[QUOTE=Poodle]the bulls cast were all role players. like a bunch of glorified matt bonner's. you're an idiot if you think MJ had players of gasol, odom, bynums caliber combined. even pippen and kukoc don't make up for kobe's supporting cast relatively speaking.

MJ had the will of fire. i agree its what separates him from lebron in this series, MJ would have made better decisions and passes for easier buckets. lebron just doesn't have that fire all of the time like MJ did, and kobe has a little bit of it but not on MJ's level at all.

theres no overrating MJ, considering he could be the [B]greatest athlete ever[/B]. not just NBA, and a lot of that has to do with his will.[/QUOTE]

SMH :hammerhead:

Yes, his team was filled with people who should be 3rd string or in the D-League. The amount of Jordan hyperbolizing on this board has gotten out of hand. Pippen + kukoc < Pau + Bynum? :no: :banghead:

Derek Fisher only >>>> Kerr, Paxson, Cartwright, Wennington and BJ Armstrong combined.

With exception to Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc the rest of Jordan's teammates were scrubs.

And Ron Harper wasn't much of a player either once he left the Clippers.

[QUOTE=Manute for Ever!]MJ never had a decent centre by his side his whole career. Just saying...[/QUOTE]

Kobe never had someone who can take over a game by himself like Jordan did when he wasn't playing great. Kobe knows that its all on him, we saw what happens when Pau is trusted to make a clutch play (not counting the putback layup, but I mean if he even choked that..) Good bigs are great to have but having someone that can create his own offense is greater. I mean Pippen would be top 50 on the list of the biggest hater of all time, gasol at this point is not top 50 on the list of biggest laker fan.

[QUOTE=AK47DR91]Derek Fisher only >>>> Kerr, Paxson, Cartwright, Wennington and BJ Armstrong combined.

With exception to Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc the rest of Jordan's teammates were scrubs.

And Ron Harper wasn't much of a player either once he left the Clippers.[/QUOTE]

they shouldnt allow computers in padded rooms

lol @ Kobe not ever having a good team around him. LOL. Replace Jordan with Kobe and they aren't winning 6 years and he's not winning 6 MVPs. Replace Kobe with Jordan to play with Shaq and they won't have very many bare fingers left.

[QUOTE=Force]lol @ Kobe not ever having a good team around him. LOL. Replace Jordan with Kobe and they aren't winning 6 years and he's not winning 6 MVPs. Replace Kobe with Jordan to play with Shaq and they won't have very many bare fingers left.[/QUOTE]

Jordan and Shaq would have collapsed before 3 years. Kobe on Bulls have a better chance at 6 rings than Jordan and Shaq have at 3. Jordans ego is bigger than Kobe's. Shaq started flipping out when Kobe was being praised as the NEXT michael jordan, can you imagine how he'd be if announcers were telling him he's the 2nd option? And prime jordan WOULD want to be the 1st option.

[QUOTE=RazorBaLade]Kobe never had someone who can take over a game by himself like Jordan did when he wasn't playing great. Kobe knows that its all on him, we saw what happens when Pau is trusted to make a clutch play (not counting the putback layup, but I mean if he even choked that..) Good bigs are great to have but having someone that can create his own offense is greater. I mean Pippen would be top 50 on the list of the biggest hater of all time, gasol at this point is not top 50 on the list of biggest laker fan.[/QUOTE]

Good God, this forum is infested with morons. I really think it's time for me to move on maybe to RealGM. I heard they have good discussion over there. Kobe has nobody who can take the game over if he isn't playing great? Then WHAT THE F*CK WAS GASOL DOING IN THE ENTIRE FIRST ROUND???? You know, when Kobe was busy chucking up shots and playing BAD. How could the Lakers have won that series with the GREAT Kobe Bryant playing so poorly? I mean his team is nothing but scrubs who need him to dominate every single game to even have a chance at winning. Not even Kobe agrees with you morons. He said during that series that the beauty of his team is that he doesn't have to score 45-50 points anymore because he has other OPTIONS. Players who CAN score and impact the game if he's playing poorly. Don't EVEN get me started on Shaq years. Yeah, you're right, Kobe's NEVER had a player who can take over and win games when Kobe's having an off night. If you really believe that BS, then more power to you. It's late, I'm going to bed, and I've sh*tted on enough of you Kobe trolls tonight. I had a feeling if the Cavs lost tonight, the Kobe trolls would be out in full force, but I didn't expect it to be this bad.

[QUOTE=raptorfan_dr07]Good God, this forum is infested with morons. I really think it's time for me to move on maybe to RealGM. I heard they have good discussion over there. Kobe has nobody who can take the game over if he isn't playing great? Then WHAT THE F*CK WAS GASOL DOING IN THE ENTIRE FIRST ROUND???? You know, when Kobe was busy chucking up shots and playing BAD. How could the Lakers have won that series with the GREAT Kobe Bryant playing so poorly? I mean his team is nothing but scrubs who need him to dominate every single game to even have a chance at winning. Not even Kobe agrees with you morons. He said during that series that the beauty of his team is that he doesn't have to score 45-50 points anymore because he has other OPTIONS. Players who CAN score and impact the game if he's playing poorly. Don't EVEN get me started on Shaq years. Yeah, you're right, Kobe's NEVER had a player who can take over and win games when Kobe's having an off night. If you really believe that BS, then more power to you. It's late, I'm going to bed, and I've sh*tted on enough of you Kobe trolls tonight. I had a feeling if the Cavs lost tonight, the Kobe trolls would be out in full force, but I didn't expect it to be this bad.[/QUOTE]

Game 2, 5 and 6 gasol sure played better than kobe :roll: and at the end of the game it was always kobe or else they lost, no one on the lakers can do it in high pressure situations consistently except fisher and thats only a shot or 2. At the end of the game its always through kobe, but jordan had the luxury of it being through pippen once in a while.

At the end of games only kobe can take over. Gasol chokes. Shaq can't even play the end of games in case they foul you idiot.

PS: if not for game 6 tip in, gasol would have been destroyed for having such a bad game and it'd be another game he choked in. Funny how that goes unnoticed.

now don't get me wrong, gasol is amazing for the lakers and for kobe, but kobe has never had help at the end of the shot clock or at the end of the game. Period.


edit: I re-read my post, I apologize, I didn't include that I was talking about end of game situations. It's kind of obvious to me that "take game over" means during clutch situations but oh well.

[QUOTE=raptorfan_dr07]Good God, this forum is infested with morons.[B] I really think it's time for me to move on maybe to RealGM.[/B] I heard they have good discussion over there. Kobe has nobody who can take the game over if he isn't playing great? Then WHAT THE F*CK WAS GASOL DOING IN THE ENTIRE FIRST ROUND???? You know, when Kobe was busy chucking up shots and playing BAD. How could the Lakers have won that series with the GREAT Kobe Bryant playing so poorly? I mean his team is nothing but scrubs who need him to dominate every single game to even have a chance at winning. Not even Kobe agrees with you morons. He said during that series that the beauty of his team is that he doesn't have to score 45-50 points anymore because he has other OPTIONS. Players who CAN score and impact the game if he's playing poorly. Don't EVEN get me started on Shaq years. Yeah, you're right, Kobe's NEVER had a player who can take over and win games when Kobe's having an off night. If you really believe that BS, then more power to you. It's late, I'm going to bed, and I've sh*tted on enough of you Kobe trolls tonight. I had a feeling if the Cavs lost tonight, the Kobe trolls would be out in full force, but I didn't expect it to be this bad.[/QUOTE]


bye bye sir :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUOTE=RazorBaLade]Game 2, 5 and 6 gasol sure played better than kobe :roll: and at the end of the game it was always kobe or else they lost, no one on the lakers can do it in high pressure situations consistently except fisher and thats only a shot or 2. At the end of the game its always through kobe, but jordan had the luxury of it being through pippen once in a while.

At the end of games only kobe can take over. Gasol chokes. Shaq can't even play the end of games in case they foul you idiot.

PS: if not for game 6 tip in, gasol would have been destroyed for having such a bad game and it'd be another game he choked in. Funny how that goes unnoticed.

now don't get me wrong, gasol is amazing for the lakers and for kobe, but kobe has never had help at the end of the shot clock or at the end of the game. Period.


edit: I re-read my post, I apologize, I didn't include that I was talking about end of game situations. It's kind of obvious to me that "take game over" means during clutch situations but oh well.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that 18 rebounds and 9 points on 11 shots is not a really bad game. What the **** are you talking about. Kobe had it going offensively and Gasol didn't get many shot opportunities....so instead he busted his ass on defense and the boards. He played great defense all game and completely dominated the glass....just like he did with the game winning put back.

You do understand that a lot more goes into winning basketball games that scoring points right?

But i do agree with your post. Kobe can coast for the majority of games because the lakers team is good that regardless of how kobe plays usually they have a chance to win in the last 5 minutes and that is when kobe can take over. Unfortunately......other stars don't have that. The stats show that Lebron is far superior in the clutch than Kobe anyway....but you really do answer the entire debate in your post.

Meaning:

A team is not going to win if it relies on one player to do the majority of the heavy lifiting throughout the game a la Lebron. Gasol grabbing those 18 boards as a huge part of the victory. I think it is fair to say that if he only gets 13 of those that the Lakers lose game six.

Kobe is an amazing player that i have in the top 15 all time. so its not like i dont think he's truly great. but he played like crap for the majority of the thunder series....and it was his teammates that that picked him up and carried more of the load when he was off. How can you debate that? Everyone here flames artest....yet he absolutely shut down durant. without that....the lakers would have been in big big trouble and would have most likely lost the series. its that simple....

kobe is not perfect. neither is lebron. the play like crap sometimes. it happens. its ok to admit it.

Another dickriding thread.

[QUOTE=RazorBaLade]Jordan and Shaq would have collapsed before 3 years. Kobe on Bulls have a better chance at 6 rings than Jordan and Shaq have at 3. Jordans ego is bigger than Kobe's. Shaq started flipping out when Kobe was being praised as the NEXT michael jordan, can you imagine how he'd be if announcers were telling him he's the 2nd option? And prime jordan WOULD want to be the 1st option.[/QUOTE]

Haha Jordan and Shaq could have been hilarious. The insane worker Jordan with fatty Shaq.

Jordan: It

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Haha Jordan and Shaq could have been hilarious. The insane worker Jordan with fatty Shaq.

Jordan: It

[QUOTE=RazorBaLade][b]Jordan and Shaq would have collapsed before 3 years. Kobe on Bulls have a better chance at 6 rings than Jordan and Shaq have at 3.[/b] Jordans ego is bigger than Kobe's. Shaq started flipping out when Kobe was being praised as the NEXT michael jordan, can you imagine how he'd be if announcers were telling him he's the 2nd option? And prime jordan WOULD want to be the 1st option.[/QUOTE]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/heffem/blog/posts/2007/08-august/06-lold/i-lol-d.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Funnyfuka]and scottie pippen, and phil jackson, and [B]steve kerr[/B], and [B]horace grant[/B], and rodman...[/QUOTE]
:roll:

****ing kids

Another reason nobody mentioned so far:

The # of times Michael Jordan had homecourt advantage in the playoffs:
23.

The # of times MJ won with homecourt advantage in the playoffs:
23.

[B]Never [/B][I]mention [/I]Lebron in the same sentence as Michael Jordan [I]ever [/I]again. :no:

Although I don't think Lebron is completely to blame, LOL @ everyone that prematurely tried to say Lebron was better then Jordan was through this stage of their careers.