Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

Maybe time has erased a little of my memory of Pippen, but correct me if I'm wrong, I could not recall a single flaw in his game. Many, many times I'd watch a Bulls game and leave thinking Pippen was a more complete player than Michael Jordan. Not a [U]better [/U]player, mind you.

Pippen could have been an All Star at PG, SG, SF, or PF. He would have excelled in any game plan or under any coach. His instincts, athleticism and size was an unstoppable combination. He was going to have an impact on the game, you just never knew how. Whether it was shutting down Mark Jackson at PG or giving Barkley fits at PF .... it didn't seem to matter. If that failed, he could easily hand out 10 assists, control the boards, or score 30 points on you. He also had a killer instinct.

I think he's probably the best defender I've ever seen play. He was great on the ball, but probably the best double teamer ever. he was also extremely smart defensively

This is my favorite highlight videos of him, must watch:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk&feature=player_embedded[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M&feature=player_embedded[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObgS6uUVjQ&feature=player_embedded[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyzx6ISXQGw&feature=player_embedded[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mL1L57rtI&feature=player_embedded[/url]

Batum is better.

Yes.

About time.

He was the most versatile on the team. He never had no flaws. He was the best defender and the best rebounding perimeter player in that whole era. He surely made life easier for his teammates. He took over when needed to.

The only thing he couldn't do was take over a game wit his scoring. He really didn't have many moves to create his own shot and was a great shooter off the dribble.

That's not much of a weakness considering he was still a 20 point scorer, but it was very rare that Pippen went for 30.

I always liked his demeanor on the court, so calm and consistent he never seemed to get rattled. And very few players were as smooth.

Defensively I think he gets a little overrated now (only by people who say he is one of the best few defensive players ever), but that's not to say he wasn't one of the best perimeter defenders of his era, because he was. The best part about his defense is that he accepted that role, as the #1 defensive option. He guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Chris Webber to Larry Johnson and everyone in between.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBJy6AWQA[/url]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The only thing he couldn't do was take over a game wit his scoring. He really didn't have many moves to create his own shot and was a great shooter off the dribble.

That's not much of a weakness considering he was still a 20 point scorer, but it was very rare that Pippen went for 30. [/quote]

I don't think that's true at all. It's not that Pippen couldn't take over a game with his offense. It was more like he wouldn't. I saw plenty of games where Pippen could have easily gone for big scoring numbers if he applied himself but he would pull back and not interrupt the flow of the team...and that's to his detriment because most idiot NBA fans think pretty scoring numbers are more important than everything else. Pippen was never some gloryhound shotjacker that seemed to be worried about how many points he was putting up. It was all about getting the win. I like to call him the Tim Duncan of small forwards because Tim Duncan has played with that same "team" demeanor his entire career.

[QUOTE=Ron Artest]Batum is better.[/QUOTE]

I hope your joking:facepalm

He is just not clutch. He's like KG, only less insane and not as rich.

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]I don't think that's true at all. It's not that Pippen couldn't take over a game with his offense. It was more like he wouldn't. I saw plenty of games where Pippen could have easily gone for big scoring numbers if he applied himself but he would pull back and not interrupt the flow of the team...and that's to his detriment because most idiot NBA fans think pretty scoring numbers are more important than everything else. Pippen was never some gloryhound shotjacker that seemed to be worried about how many points he was putting up. It was all about getting the win. I like to call him the Tim Duncan of small forwards because Tim Duncan has played with that same "team" demeanor his entire career.[/QUOTE]

Well, I am really at my wits end with "could have" arguments. If you believe that, that's fine, I don't think it's crazy, but the facts are he never really took over a playoff game with his scoring, not even once. I think in his Bulls career his playoff high was like 34 and he only had five 30+ games. That includes the year without Michale where he scored a playoff high of 29 I believe.

That's what I base my opinion on.

I also don't think he would have been a good leader, but he never really had to be so i don't hold that against him. As it is I believe it's between him and John Havilcek and Kevin McHale as the best complimentary star players of all-time. All guys who could play and guard multiple positions as well as score, rebound and pass.

My favorite dunk ever: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is[/url]
I assume many share the same opinion.

[quote=DeronMillsap]My favorite dunk ever: [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is[/URL]
I assume many share the same opinion.[/quote]
:cheers:

[QUOTE=DeronMillsap]My favorite dunk ever: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is[/url]
I assume many share the same opinion.[/QUOTE]
:rockon:

Yes, and please stop calling him "sidekick" or Robin. He's too good for that.

[QUOTE=Nash]Yes, and please stop calling him "sidekick" or Robin. He's too good for that.[/QUOTE]

Scottie was great, but he was also a sidekick.

[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Scottie was great, but he was also a sidekick.[/QUOTE]


This is such a retarded thing to say.

A team does not win 6 championships and set a record for wins in a season with just one "superstar." The year after Michael retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 and lost in 7 games to the Knicks in the 2nd round.

I didn't see Kobe doing that when Shaq or Pau weren't there, or Wade doing it without Shaq. I didn't see Pierce doing it before KG and Ray Allen were there.

Sometimes - I know this is hard to believe for people who believe everything Nike and Gatorade and ESPN tell them - there can be two or more players of equal importance to a championship team.

The Bulls are arguably the GREATEST DYNASTY in sports history. WTF does sidekick even mean??? Its just a dumb term that you've heard so you repeat it. Try actually thinking some time.

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

[QUOTE=kizut1659]kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .[/QUOTE]

Significantly less mileage?!? So someone that plays damn near 200 playoff games, two Olympics, goes through countless surgeries on his ankles, knees, foot, and back (had his 2nd back surgery after the '98 Finals) suddenly has "significantly" less mileage?

[QUOTE=the GIBBET]This is such a retarded thing to say.

A team does not win 6 championships and set a record for wins in a season with just one "superstar." The year after Michael retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 and lost in 7 games to the Knicks in the 2nd round.

I didn't see Kobe doing that when Shaq or Pau weren't there, or Wade doing it without Shaq. I didn't see Pierce doing it before KG and Ray Allen were there.

Sometimes - I know this is hard to believe for people who believe everything Nike and Gatorade and ESPN tell them - there can be two or more players of equal importance to a championship team.

The Bulls are arguably the GREATEST DYNASTY in sports history. WTF does sidekick even mean??? Its just a dumb term that you've heard so you repeat it. Try actually thinking some time.[/QUOTE]

Agreed :oldlol:

Without their "sidekicks" all of those "superstars" are jack sh**. They would be doing the same thing Lebron was doing...putting up pretty numbers and going out in the first or second round. The only players I'll give a pass to are Duncan (for 2003) and Hakeem (for 1994). They won a title without legit all-star help.

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Significantly less mileage?!? So someone that plays damn near 200 playoff games, two Olympics, goes through countless surgeries on his ankles, knees, foot, and back (had his 2nd back surgery after the '98 Finals) suddenly has "significantly" less mileage?[/QUOTE]

Well, from 1987 through 1998 Pippen played approximately 37,000 total regular season + playoff minutes. Kobe has played so far 45,000 total minutes. Maybe "significant" is not the best choice of words but the bottom line is that Pippen should not have dropped off as precipitously as he did. In terms of surgeries, Pippen did have that back surgery but noone expected him to become a role player in 1999 so it could not have been that much of a deal. As for 2 Olympics - yeah, I am sure 1992 Olympics with the Dream Team really tired Pippen out.

He was not an untalented scorer but he was definitely predisposed more towards facilitating. His instinct was to generate the best shot for the offense, not imposing his will on the game and carrying the scoring load. That was his psychology and his skill set, and ofc it provided the best value to the team for him to play like that because of his partner in crime. Most of all Pippen always impressed me with his cerebral playing style and ball IQ, filling in the blanks wherever needed and conducting the flow of the game. Knew exactly how to deploy his talents to be incredibly influential and versatile on both sides of the floor. His all-around game was a beautiful thing to behold. Pip :bowdown:

Before I start, id like to note how much hatred ive read in some of these posts. This is supposed to be an appreciation thread. But im reading things like "sidekick", "overrated", "not a leader", even "overrated defender". Just sad.

Anyways, I feel pippen along with being arguably the best perimeter defender ever, the best all-around player ever, a Six time nba champion, etc is the most underappreciated player ever. This man sacrificed his whole career in the name of winning. Dominated defensivly like a great defensive center, but from the forward position. And his skillset is unmatched in todays game. If we were to compare him today, id say the best similarity is lebron james. And I rank him in the top 20 all-time. Definately one of the greatest ever.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .[/QUOTE]


The press loved to sing long songs about Jordan made Pippen. However, their songs are missing a few verses. For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?

Furthermore, when deciding to retire, Jordan said over and over that he would not play without Pippen. While recovering from foot
surgery in December of 1997, Pippen said that he was not going to play with the Bulls when he was fully recovered. Jordan said that if he had known this, he would not have come back. Why? If Jordan makes everyone so much better, why not fill in Scott Burrell into Pippen

[QUOTE=Ne 1]It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.[/QUOTE]

Come on. Pippen wouldn't even remotely say he was more valuable. He was Jordan's #1 cheerleader (Well, he and Barkley.)

[QUOTE=Ne 1] For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?[/quote]

Pippen's 1992 season with Jordan was at least on par with his 1994 season, so that's just wrong. Plus, Pippen was entering his prime in 1994 anyway (age 28, when most players hit their peak in general), so that's expected.

[quote]Answer: Jordan didn’t make Pippen. Pippen made Pippen. Without Jordan, he is still the dominating defensive player, and he continues to be a complete player.[/quote]

This is nonsense. Pippen does NOT become the same type of defensive and all-around player without Jordan's tutelage and without competing against him every day and pushing him. You're deluded if you think he'd be the exact same player in every respect had he not played with MJ. He might have still bee a great player (he had the physical tools, IQ, and work ethic, after all), but he wouldn't have been as great as he was on both ends. Like I've always said, it's not a coincidence that one of the greatest all-around players and best defenders of all time (Pippen) [i]just happened to play[/i] with another of the best all-around players and defenders of all time (Jordan).

[quote]Think about it: Jordan never had a winning record apart from Pippen. Pippen played on many playoff teams in Portland and Houston without Jordan.[/quote]

Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real. It's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. Jordan only had his ROOKIE year and then 1987 to "prove" himself before Pippen was on the team. In '85 he was a rookie yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in history. In '87 he had possibly the worst supporting cast in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly? As I've already noted, he won 50 games with a rookie Pippen, which, to any sane person (note: this excludes you), proves that he could have at least had a winning record with a decent team around him. Even in '88 his team was no great shakes, yet he won 50 games. But yeah, I'm sure it was 7 pt/4 reb foul-prone Pippen who was the reason for those wins! :oldlol:

[quote]It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't make any [B]sane[/B] person wonder about those things, I'll tell you that much.

[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Come on. Pippen wouldn't even remotely say he was more valuable. He was Jordan's #1 cheerleader (Well, he and Barkley.)[/QUOTE]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.

[QUOTE]So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly?[/QUOTE]

Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.

[QUOTE]t's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. [/QUOTE]

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.[/QUOTE]

Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate anymore than Chauncey Billups was one. His name might have been mentioned, but he was never seriously going to win the award.

I love how building up Pippen is now seen as the cool thing as long as it tarnishes Jordan.

Listen, those of us that actually watched the game back then will tell you, Pippen was a sidekick. He was a great, great player. One of the top 30 in league history, but that team lived and breathed Michael Jordan. He was it.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.



Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.



Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]
That's mostly true, but the fact is that pretty much every top 20 player played with a player as good, or better then Pippen. Jordan was not any luckier then any top 10 player probably much less lucky then any other top 5 player.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.



Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.



Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]

Maybe it had something to do with inheriting a losing franchise and playing in the 80's at the same time. Fact is, MJ was 2nd in the league in WS in 1985 and #1 in 1987 meaning no other player in the league produces more wins than he did on those teams. Only Bird in 1985 and no in 1987.


Kareem on the Bucks goes from the best record in the league in 1974 to not even making the playoffs the next year once Oscar left. And then he gets traded the following year to LA and his former team makes the playoffs when they didn't in his last year there and then the new team he goes to doesn't make the playoffs. Remember we are talking about prime Kareem here not some guy in his mid 30's

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

Calling Pippen top 20 of all time is a reach. Top 25-30 seems about right.

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1]Source: GoogleBooks[/url]


[QUOTE]
Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.
[/QUOTE]


[url=http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html]Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link[/url]


[img]http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg[/img]



[quote]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558[/url]

[quote]
CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

[b]"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man[/b] and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."
[/quote]


[quote]
"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."
[/quote]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100% :applause: :applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception?[/quote]

It was only his third full season, not his fourth (he missed almost the entirety of 1986). Secondly, Jordan EASILY had the worst team of any top 10 player when looking at each of their first few years in the league (especially relative to average league team strength). So there's your answer.

[quote] Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.[/quote]

This is completely false. First off, the draft order and the way drafts worked were completely different pre-'85. You DIDN'T need to be one of the worst teams to get a high pick, and not jut via trading for a high pick. I'm not well-versed on the specifics, but this is how LA landed Magic for instance.

And are you seriously going to compare the teams other top 10 players had in their first 3-4 seasons to the team Jordan had in his first 3-4 seasons? Please do so so everyone can laugh at you. :oldlol: Hysterical that you're trying to act like most of the rest of the top 10 had similarly crappy teams when this is FAR from the case.

Who did the other top 10 players get to the conference finals or beyond with in their first 3 years? Magic had KAJ and others, KAJ had Oscar, Shaq had Penny and Grant, Bird had Parish/McHale and others; Duncan had DRob, Kobe had Shaq, Hakeem had Sampson. Besides, there were ONLY TWO PLAYOFF ROUNDS ANYWAY prior to the Finals before 1983, so if you won the first round, bang, you were in the conference finals. :oldlol: Big deal. Now look at who these players had next to them, then tell me what Jordan had for his first 2-3 full seasons (1985, '87 and '88)? Yeah...exactly. There's no equivalence there AT ALL.

Furthermore, few if any of these players had the misfortune of playing ALL-TIME level teams in the FIRST ROUND their first few seasons. Another mitigating factor that RATIONAL people take into account.

[quote]Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]

No you dolt, it's not strange AT ALL that a 35 year old player would want to stay with what worked (Pippen and Jackson, which were his conditions for returning) rather than learn a new system under a new coach with a new partner at that stage of his career at age 36. To anyone with a functioning brain, that isn't strange AT ALL.

What's even more hysterical is imbeciles like you who think that Jordan plus Ewing/DRob/Barkley/Hakeem/Drexler wouldn't have run the league from '88 onward ('89 at the latest - 2 full years before they won their first title in reality).

[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp][url]http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558[/url][/QUOTE]

Come on now, we all know Charles Oakley made Pippen a man.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU:oldlol:[/url]

Ahhh bout time. Pip was capable of taking over games across the board. He may not nail 4 or 5 straight shots but what he would do is shut down the opponents best player, force a turnover, feed a teammate for a three, steal and run out a dunk and hit a dagger three. I'll take that backbreaking 3 minute stretch over 4 straight hoops any day.

Pip had a habit of putting someone else in position for the glory play, obviously normally Mike. Thats a skill in itself and a mindset/skillset a coach has yet to replicate with another player since.

Pips defense was borderline psychotic. He could literally destroy an offense on his own.

Someone asked what his weakness was it would have to be taking the final shot and free throws weren't great either.

Regardless...

We have the next Mike. Its Kobe. I know it. You know it. LeBron knows it. Theres is no player that is to Pip what Kobe is to Mike.

[QUOTE=Maestro33]We have the next Mike. Its Kobe. I know it. You know it. LeBron knows it. Theres is no player that is to Pip what Kobe is to Mike.[/QUOTE]

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Lebron is that terribly similar. He impacts the game in somewhat similar ways, but other then this year so far he's been anywhere from a far below average to above average defender, compared to Pippen's all NBA defense almost every year of his career. Also, his game is mostly built around athetlicism, where Pippen might not have been a super skilled scorer, he was extremely fundamentally sound, and much more cerebral. I also don't think Lebron is a better passer really.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'. [/quote]

Teammates are suppose to cheer on each other. Especially their significant players. Pippen was probably the best SF in the 90s. You better be his number one fan if he is on your team. Likewise with Pippen to Jordan unless you have the Shaq/Kobe relationship. But even then, Shaq commented on Kobe great play and skills.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.
[/QUOTE]

Kobe, Mchale, Kareem, Magic, Oscar, West, Shaq, Wade, Stockton, Erving, Moses Malone, and Wilt. Some of the greats had better "sidekicks" than Michael Jordan.

Kareem-Magic/Oscar
Shaq-Kobe
Bird-Mchale
Wilt-West
Moses Malone-Dr. J
K.Malone-Stockton
Wade-Shaq
KG-PP-Allen

And you pick on Jordan...Might as well pick on Kareem and Shaq too. And almost all of them were legit MVP candidates.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.[/QUOTE]

Is Duncan better than Shaq and Wilt because he won earlier and expanded his team better? Is Hakeem better than Jordan too? He had a fast start and had a mediocre several years before the dream became a reality.

There are a lot more details in why Bird, Magic and Russel in why they won than just they are better team players than Jordan. Right place, right time, right system. I won't argue with you in saying that Magic and Bird had better impact on their teams or even the big men, but it's not like Jordan didn't have impact either.

There are a lot more reasons why Jordan won in 88 than the rest of the year. That year they had a better bench (Pippen, Grant), better coaching staff (Phil Jackson and crew), Jordan hit his prime, and just better cast.

Edit:

One more thing, why in the hell would you criticize Jordan for having a great player on a great team when that's what you are suppose to do in basketball? You might as well criticize all of the great teams in the 80s, because they were stacked. Some of them actually had better overall players than the Bulls teams.

I can do that to a lot teams.

"ZOMG, he wouldn't win his other two titles without Kevin Mchale and Parish!"

"ZOMG, Kareem wouldn't win without Oscar or Magic!"

"Shaq can't win at all without Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, or LBJ!"

"Magic can't win without Kareem or Worthy!"

"Kobe can't win without Shaq or Gasol!"

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.[/QUOTE]

You can't compare Pippen to anyone of the above. Kareem was definetely not a sidekick in 1970 and 1980 (as you yourself wrote.) Same for magic in 1987 and 1988. Jerry West was the best player on the Lakers from about 1965 on and him and Wilt were 1A/1B when they won. Kobe was 1B in 2001 and 2002 and won 2 championships as the man. John Havlicek was probably Celtics' most important player in 1968, 1969, and 1974 - definetely not a "sidekick."

By contrast, Pippen had only one good season as someone who was not a sidekick - 1993-1994. I actually think Pippen was a great sidekick and I didn't really mean it in a deragotory way. I think Pippen IS a top 50 GOAT - i just don't think he is top 25.