Replace KG with Duncan on the Spurs

Do they still win 4 championships?
Is KG crowned the GOAT PF?

Or

Does Duncan lead the T Wolves to championships?

replace KG with Duncan on the Spurs...

notsureifsrs.jpg

:facepalm


but ignoring your typo yea I think KG under popovich wins at least 2 championships.

Might as well take the question farther.

Replace Barkley with Duncan on the Spurs

Replace Malone with Duncan on the spurs

Well, there is no way in hell that Duncan wins Minnesota a championship, but idk whether KG wins 4 or not. I'd say that most likely he does.

[QUOTE]Replace Barkley with Duncan on the Spurs[/QUOTE]
The defense allows another 10 ppg

[QUOTE]Replace Malone with Duncan on the spurs[/QUOTE]
I need a choking emoticon

[QUOTE=magnax1]Well, there is no way in hell that Duncan wins Minnesota a championship, but idk whether KG wins 4 or not. I'd say that most likely he does.[/QUOTE]
No way he wins four. He's nowhere near the offensive player that Duncan is. I'd honestly be surprised if they won one.

How about MJ on the Spurs, with Duncan? Oh yeah... :facepalm

[QUOTE=Penny37]No way he wins four. He's nowhere near the offensive player that Duncan is. I'd honestly be surprised if they won one.[/QUOTE]
What? Their scoring averages and efficiencies are nearly identical in the playoffs and regular seasons during their primes. That literally makes no sense. Garnett was every bit the scorer duncan was. And his ability to anchor a defense was just as good too. Just look at what he's transformed this boston team into. These guys are neck and neck as individual players.

[QUOTE=Penny37]No way he wins four. He's nowhere near the offensive player that Duncan is. I'd honestly be surprised if they won one.[/QUOTE]
Duncan was a better on the ball scorer, KG was a better passer and off the ball player. I'd rather have Duncan as a scorer, but to say KG is "nowhere near" is a massive exaggeration.

[QUOTE=magnax1]The defense allows another 10 ppg


I need a choking emoticon[/QUOTE]
Except for the fact that Barkley is a far better offensive player then KG and a better offensive player than Duncan

Would Duncan have a bodyguard like David Robinson early career?

I think Garnett is already the GOAT PF.

I'm surprised this isn't a KG5MVP thread.

Probably worse because Duncan fits in their system better and doesn't get injured as much.

[QUOTE=heyhey]
ignoring your typo yea I think KG under popovich wins at least 2 championships.[/QUOTE]

This. And Duncan wins nothing in Minnesota.

And then we come to the harsh reality that none of these hypotheticals mean a thing and Duncan has 4 championships whiles Garnett only has one.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]Except for the fact that Barkley is a far better offensive player then KG and a better offensive player than Duncan[/QUOTE]
That's true, but even so you go from two top 10 offensive players (during their time period) and two of the three best defensive players to probably a top 2 or 3 (tough to say if Magic was better) offensive player in his peak and who at his best was an average defender, I think that's a pretty obvious choice. The gap between defense is huge compared to the gap between the their offense. I'd say that during Barkleys very best year he was probably equal to Duncan or KG.[I]maybe[/I]

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]And then we come to the harsh reality that none of these hypotheticals mean a thing and Duncan has 4 championships whiles Garnett only has one.[/QUOTE]
And then you come to the harsh reality that championships is a stupid way to compare players.

Current KG > Current Duncan.
Prime KG ≈ Prime Duncan.

[QUOTE=magnax1]That's true, but even so you go from two top 10 offensive players (during their time period) and two of the three best defensive players to probably a top 2 or 3 (tough to say if Magic was better) offensive player in his peak and who at his best was an average defender, I think that's a pretty obvious choice. The gap between defense is huge compared to the gap between the their offense. I'd say that during Barkleys very best year he was probably equal to Duncan or KG.[I]maybe[/I][/QUOTE]


The Gap between Peak Barkley and Peak Garnett's offensive game was just as big as the gap between their defense.

I have Barkley above any PF not named Duncan.

[QUOTE=tpols]What? Their scoring averages and efficiencies are nearly identical in the playoffs and regular seasons during their primes. That literally makes no sense. Garnett was every bit the scorer duncan was. And his ability to anchor a defense was just as good too. Just look at what he's transformed this boston team into. These guys are neck and neck as individual players.[/QUOTE]

Nah, I don't care what the stats are, Duncan was the better offensive player. And if we are talking stats, Duncan has multiple series where he averaged around 30 ppg in the playoffs.

Tim was a superior low post player and a guy who knew when to be assertive and take over. KG deferred too much sometimes and he settled for jump shots and tried to play like a small forward at times, which he did well, but I think his teams would have benefitted more from him posting up more often and when he did face up, attacking the rim more.

Defensively, I also think Duncan was better. KG guarded the perimeter better, but Duncan's impact was more like your traditional interior defensive anchor due to his superior shot blocking, post defense and the ability to guard centers more effectively.

[QUOTE=magnax1]And then you come to the harsh reality that championships is a stupid way to compare players.[/QUOTE]


And then you come to the Harsh reality that you and maybe 5% of the forum are the only people who actually believe that:oldlol:

I dunno. Maybe. KG is similar to Duncan, and the coach is one of the best coaches out there.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]And then you come to the Harsh reality that you and maybe 5% of the forum are the only people who actually believe that:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter what % of people believe the truth, when it is the truth. If you win, you aren't the one winning, your team is. There isn't anything much more simple and obvious then that in basketball.

David Robinson and Bruce Bowen are really underrated for the Spurs

You guys need to stop bringing up those bad memories with all those crappy ass minnesota teams i had to watch KG play for :(

[QUOTE=magnax1]Well, there is no way in hell that Duncan wins Minnesota a championship, but idk whether KG wins 4 or not. I'd say that most likely he does.[/QUOTE]

I say there is a chance in 2004.

However, these scenarios are always kind of dumb, because teams have been built around their stars' strengths, so who knows how well Duncan fits with those teams and who knows how well KG fits with the Spurs (Spurs were a perfect fit for Duncan, so I'd be surprised if KG works out as well on that team).

I think the big difference between Duncan and Garnett is Duncan would play hard during the regular season, but had an extra playoff gear where when his team needed him to have a monster series and hit clutch shots 9/10 he would come through. KG played every game as if it was Game 7 of the Finals. Which is great but a Game 6 WCF is more important than @Memphis in January. Duncan's numbers go up in the playoffs, KG's stay the same as his regular season numbers.

KG Career Regular Season PPG 19.7 RPG 10.8 APG 4.1 FG% 49.8

Career Playoff PPG 20.2 RPG 11.2 APG 4.0 FG% 47.4


TD Career Regular Season PPG 20.9 RPG 11.5 APG 3.2 FG% 50.8

Career Playoff PPG 23.0 RPG 12.4 APG 3.5 FG% 50.2

Duncan's points and rebounds go up quite a bit, Garnett's stay pretty much the same. Duncan's FG% goes down slighty and Garnett's goes down over 2 percentage points, while Duncan shoots over 50% in Reg and Post seasons, Garnett manages neither.

i dont know.

[QUOTE=Myth]I say there is a chance in 2004.

However, these scenarios are always kind of dumb, because teams have been built around their stars' strengths, so who knows how well Duncan fits with those teams and who knows how well KG fits with the Spurs (Spurs were a perfect fit for Duncan, so I'd be surprised if KG works out as well on that team).[/QUOTE]

great point.

during Duncans prime, the team was built around him. Pop and RC surrounded him with shooters. our entire game plan was to drop the ball to duncan down low and let him work...if the double or triple came he would kick out to the open shooter. I dont think KG can demand that double the way duncan did down low.

[QUOTE=BoNafidde]Do they still win 4 championships?
Is KG crowned the GOAT PF?

Or

Does Duncan lead the T Wolves to championships?[/QUOTE]
Duncan doesnt win with the Wolves, thats for sure.

KG [I]could [/I]win 4 with the Spurs, but their brilliant office would have to adjust roster slightly. While both players impact is remarkably similar, teams would have to adjust to their superstars strong points. For example I think KG would average ~2PPG less but Manu, Parker and the rest of the player would benefit more from KG since he is better passer and doesnt mind to pass to open player instead of forcing the shot. KG and TD are both selfless, but KG is up there with Russell as ultimate team players.

[QUOTE=Myth]I say there is a chance in 2004.
[/QUOTE]
Since Minny had many injures in '04 Playoffs, Garnett played pretty much every role from PG to center, Duncan cannot do that.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]I think the big difference between Duncan and Garnett is Duncan would play hard during the regular season, but had an extra playoff gear where when his team needed him to have a monster series and hit clutch shots 9/10 he would come through. KG played every game as if it was Game 7 of the Finals. Which is great but a Game 6 WCF is more important than @Memphis in January. Duncan's numbers go up in the playoffs, KG's stay the same as his regular season numbers.

KG Career Regular Season PPG 19.7 RPG 10.8 APG 4.1 FG% 49.8

[B]Career Playoff PPG 20.2 RPG 11.2 APG 4.0 FG% 47.4[/B]


TD Career Regular Season PPG 20.9 RPG 11.5 APG 3.2 FG% 50.8

[B]Career Playoff PPG 23.0 RPG 12.4 APG 3.5 FG% 50.2[/B]

Duncan's [B]points and rebounds go up quite a bit[/B], Garnett's stay pretty much the same. Duncan's FG% goes down slighty and Garnett's [B]goes down over 2 percentage points[/B], while Duncan shoots [B]over 50%[/B] in Reg and Post seasons, Garnett [B]manages neither[/B].[/QUOTE]

This. Some people love the daily intensity of Garnett but give me Duncan who performs better against better competition when it counts in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Harison]KG and TD are both selfless, but KG is up there with Russell as ultimate team players.[/QUOTE]

So Duncan isn't an ultimate team player. His teams have an over .700 record since he joined the league.

The spurs would have built a defensive dynamo around KG... there's a good chance the spurs actually repeat one of their titles with a KG team

both are great players duncan maybe a little better than kg but the credit goes to the spurs front office for knowing what types of players to surround their franchise players with

first off:

duncan was a superior offensive player than kg. kg is more versatile, but duncan had a bigger impact and was far more dominant. kg was never really a dominant offensive player....at least not like duncan. duncan could control an entire game and series on the low block. he had to be doubled and really when you have to double a low post player you are screwed.

so anyone saying kg was on par with duncan offensively in terms if impact isn't on point.



now. duncan was not winning anything in minny with the same relative talent kg had. the only year there would have even been a chance was 04.....and i simply don't think duncan could have won that series without cassell. he might have forced a game 7....but i don't think there is much of chance to beat the lakers or the pistons in 04.


and that is why titles are a bit over-rated when it comes to judging players. its a factor of course, but far too many people on here and in the sports world judge nba players on solely titles or weight titles too heavily.

just look at duncan and kg:

duncan has played on around 8 or 9 teams with a legit chance to win it all.
if you count 04 for kg (which probably wasn't legit)....kg has played on a total of 3 teams with a legit chance to win it all.

and that simply is not a fair comparison whatsoever.

so, like always, you need to delve deeper into why duncan is better (which he is). and its because he was more dominant offensively and because he was a better paint protector defensively. duncan is a superior one on one defender on the low block and a better rim protector and a bit better at off the ball shot blocking as well.

but i do think this is a bit closer than most people have it.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]So Duncan isn't an ultimate team player. His teams have an over .700 record since he joined the league.[/QUOTE]
How about this outlandish idea - team record might have something to do with a teams quality? Isnt Celtics doing better with an old KG since Big3 was formed than the Spurs? :pimp:

[QUOTE=Harison]Duncan doesnt win with the Wolves, thats for sure.

KG [I]could [/I]win 4 with the Spurs, but their brilliant office would have to adjust roster slightly. While both players impact is remarkably similar, teams would have to adjust to their superstars strong points. For example I think KG would average [B]~2PPG less[/B] but Manu, Parker and the rest of the player would benefit more from KG since he is better passer and doesnt mind to pass to open player instead of forcing the shot. KG and TD are both selfless, but KG is up there with Russell as [B]ultimate team players[/B].[/QUOTE]

Duncan wouldn't have stayed with the Wolves after his rookie contract. If he was seriously considering Orlando after the Spurs had already won the championship, he wouldn't have stayed in Minn if they didn't seriously put a contending team around him. Even Kobe would have bailed on the Lakers if they hadn't gotten Gasol. Staying in Minn. is the only thing I fault with KG - he should have taken less and gone to a team with a better chance of winning, but he has made a lot more money than TD throughout his career.

Well, what does it say about Duncan since he still has slightly better career stats even without the hypothetical 2 PPG less. Spurs were built around Duncan - his team mates got lots of wide open shots from double teams on him. For most of his career, it was a steady diet of "4 down" - throw it in to Duncan surrounded by shooters.

Team play is the last thing that anyone should be mentioning against TD - other than Russell and maybe, Magic, he is the ultimate team player.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
duncan was a superior offensive player than kg. kg is more versatile, but duncan had a bigger impact and was far more dominant. kg was never really a dominant offensive player....at least not like duncan. duncan could control an entire game and series on the low block. he had to be doubled and really when you have to double a low post player you are screwed.
[/QUOTE]
You overrating Duncan and underrating KG. Duncan is [I]slightly [/I]better scorer with [I]slightly [/I]higher efficiency, but also inferior passer (which is a part of the offense btw).

Everyone is touting how good Duncan is in the Playoffs, lets see how much more dominant Duncan was:

Best series:
Duncan '02: 27.6/14.4/5.0 with FG% 45.3
Duncan '03: 24.7/15.4/5.3 with FG% 52.9

Garnett '03: 27.0/15.7/5.2 with FG% 51.4
Garnett '04: 24.3/14.6/5.1 with FG% 45.2

You can pretty much swap their best Playoffs performances, how similar their were, I'm not even including Garnett's 24.0/18.7/5.0 series.

So how again Duncan is more dominant offensive player? If we talk about defense, I agree Duncan is better defending centers, while Garnett is better at defending all four other positions on the flour, including quicker hands to be much better at steals.

Just watch KG in the prime, posted in other threads just few days ago:

Kevin Garnett vs Sacramento Kings 2004 Playoffs Game 3: [B]30/15/5/3/3[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVQwMl2NDI[/url]

Garnett: 2004 vs Kings Playoffs GM7: [B]32/21/4/5/2[/B] - one of the best Game 7 performances All-time:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VtZht_8t4[/url]

Garnett vs Los Angeles Lakers 2003 playoffs Game 3: [B]33/14/4/4/2[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc8jjcJUkco[/url]

How about other KG Playoffs games, like [B]35/20/7[/B], [B]31/18/4[/B], [B]30/19/4[/B] vs Lakers, [B]32/21/2/4/5[/B] vs Denver, and many other games. Its just strange how people quickly forget what beast KG was in the prime, probably because rarely anyone watched crappy franchise like Wolves.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]I think the big difference between Duncan and Garnett is Duncan would play hard during the regular season, but had an extra playoff gear where when his team needed him to have a monster series and hit clutch shots 9/10 he would come through. KG played every game as if it was Game 7 of the Finals. Which is great but a Game 6 WCF is more important than @Memphis in January. Duncan's numbers go up in the playoffs, KG's stay the same as his regular season numbers.

KG Career Regular Season PPG 19.7 RPG 10.8 APG 4.1 FG% 49.8

Career Playoff PPG 20.2 RPG 11.2 APG 4.0 FG% 47.4

TD Career Regular Season PPG 20.9 RPG 11.5 APG 3.2 FG% 50.8

Career Playoff PPG 23.0 RPG 12.4 APG 3.5 FG% 50.2

Duncan's points and rebounds go up quite a bit, Garnett's stay pretty much the same. Duncan's FG% goes down slighty and Garnett's goes down over 2 percentage points, while Duncan shoots over 50% in Reg and Post seasons, Garnett manages neither.[/QUOTE]

There are a whole lot of things that you are overlooking. One is that KG came straight out of HS so his early numbers can be skewed a bit - along with health issues later on. Two is that Minny usually only had KG as an offensive weapon so in the playoffs its much easier to key in on him and affect his FG%. While in his prime KG's numbers in the playoffs were staggering: 27 ppg 15.7 rebs and 5.2 assist one year; 24ppg 18.7 rebs and 5 assist another year, and 24ppg, 14.6 and 5 assist another year. In his healthy Boston run his ppg did go up 2 ppg as well.

I was doing this post as Harrison did his above so some of it is redundant

[QUOTE=tpols]What? Their scoring averages and efficiencies are nearly identical in the playoffs and regular seasons during their primes. That literally makes no sense. Garnett was every bit the scorer duncan was. And his ability to anchor a defense was just as good too. Just look at what he's transformed this boston team into. These guys are neck and neck as individual players.[/QUOTE]

Completely different way of scoring though. KG = High Post, Duncan = Low Post. Low Post will always be better (especially if you are a great passes) because of the floor spacing (more offensive rebounds and wide open perimeter shots). That is why Duncan's scoring was "better."

[QUOTE=Harison]You overrating Duncan and underrating KG. Duncan is [I]slightly [/I]better scorer with [I]slightly [/I]higher efficiency, but also inferior passer (which is a part of the offense btw).

Everyone is touting how good Duncan is in the Playoffs, lets see how much more dominant Duncan was:

Best series:
Duncan '02: 27.6/14.4/5.0 with FG% 45.3
Duncan '03: 24.7/15.4/5.3 with FG% 52.9

Garnett '03: 27.0/15.7/5.2 with FG% 51.4
Garnett '04: 24.3/14.6/5.1 with FG% 45.2

You can pretty much swap their best Playoffs performances, how similar their were, I'm not even including Garnett's 24.0/18.7/5.0 series.

So how again Duncan is more dominant offensive player? If we talk about defense, I agree Duncan is better defending centers, while Garnett is better at defending all four other positions on the flour, including quicker hands to be much better at steals.

Just watch KG in the prime, posted in other threads just few days ago:

Kevin Garnett vs Sacramento Kings 2004 Playoffs Game 3: [B]30/15/5/3/3[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVQwMl2NDI[/url]

Garnett: 2004 vs Kings Playoffs GM7: [B]32/21/4/5/2[/B] - one of the best Game 7 performances All-time:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VtZht_8t4[/url]

Garnett vs Los Angeles Lakers 2003 playoffs Game 3: [B]33/14/4/4/2[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc8jjcJUkco[/url]

How about other KG Playoffs games, like [B]35/20/7[/B], [B]31/18/4[/B], [B]30/19/4[/B] vs Lakers, [B]32/21/2/4/5[/B] vs Denver, and many other games. Its just strange how people quickly forget what beast KG was in the prime, probably because rarely anyone watched crappy franchise like Wolves.[/QUOTE]

no. i'm not. i'm a huge KG fan. i love his game. but he simply was not the dominant low post scorer that duncan was. kg was more versatile and in a lot of ways a more complete player than duncan in terms of skill set.

that is not what i'm debating.

i simply believe that duncan had an ability to control and dominate a game and series in a way that kg could not. and that really doesn't show up in the stats.

i'm not debating whether or not kg is great. he's in my top 15 all time actually. so i love KG. i just know for sure 100% that if i had to build a team around duncan or kg for their best 10 years of their careers....i would take duncan.

and usually that is how i determine which player is better when two players are very close like kg and duncan.

ultimately, i don't think you fully understand just how important it is for winning to have a dominant back to the basket post player like duncan or shaq in this era. as good as kg was.....he wasn't in their league in terms of offensive dominance.