Gary Payton has become insanely underrated

On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.

Um, only people who never watched Payton, or only values one side of the court would rank Nash higher.

co-sign

Nash fan here... In my mind, Nash is the better shooter and passer but Payton is a MUCH better defender and could score in more ways. Effeciency wise, their about the same to me. I would rank Payton higher than Nash anyways.

[QUOTE=Nash-tastic]Nash fan here... In my mind, Nash is the better shooter and passer but Payton is a MUCH better defender and could score in more ways. Effeciency wise, their about the same to me. I would rank Payton higher than Nash anyways.[/QUOTE]
How are they same efficiency wise?

[QUOTE=D.J.]On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

Ignoring payton is a terrible disservice to the history of bball.

Payton > Nash to me, always has been.

Agreed but you probaly dealing with kids that started really watching the game in 2003 and so on.....The Glove was baller all around:cheers:

[QUOTE=Meticode]Payton > Nash to me, always has been.[/QUOTE]


I don't think it's even debatable. I think Kidd > Nash and that doesn't even get to Payton.

[QUOTE=Nash-tastic]Nash fan here... In my mind, Nash is the better shooter and passer but Payton is a MUCH better defender and could score in more ways. [B]Effeciency wise, their about the same to me[/B]. I would rank Payton higher than Nash anyways.[/QUOTE]

Payton's career TS% 52.8 Paytons peak TS% 56.4 averaging 20.6 PPG

Nash's career TS% 60.6 Nash's peak TS% 65.4 averaging 18.6 PPG

I agree that the Glove was the better all around player, but effeciency wise it's Nash and it's not even close.

[QUOTE=I'm Seriously]Payton's career TS% 52.8 Paytons peak TS% 56.4 averaging 20.6 PPG

Nash's career TS% 60.6 Nash's peak TS% 65.4 averaging 18.6 PPG

I agree that the Glove was the better all around player, but effeciency wise it's Nash and it's not even close.[/QUOTE]
This.

[QUOTE=Showtime]Um, only people who never watched Payton, or only values one side of the court would rank Nash higher.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, I'm a huge fan of Nash but Payton was clearly better.

Anybody who dares to rank Nash over Payton simply has not watched basketball for very long. Payton is the greater player and it's not even that close. GP was incredible on defense, plus he had a damn good post up game and was a great leader.

[QUOTE=D.J.]I don't think it's even debatable. I think Kidd > Nash and that doesn't even get to Payton.[/QUOTE]
It's ISH, people will debate Rose over Payton man. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=D.J.]I don't think it's even debatable. I think Kidd > Nash and that doesn't even get to Payton.[/QUOTE]
Kidd-Nash is debatable, but I give the edge to Nash there. That being said, I felt like Nash benefited greatly from the no hand-checking rule. It took away one of his biggest weaknesses.

I didn't start watching basketball until 2008, and most of the people you are dealing with here probably never saw Payton play either. It's not that we underrate him, he is just unfortunately irrelevant for my generation of NBA fans. Even Jordan will be relatively unknown by the youth 10 years from now. That's just how it goes.

But from what you guys are saying, it seems that he should be rated above Nash because Nash is a poor defender.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Kidd-Nash is debatable, but I give the edge to Nash there. That being said, I felt like Nash benefited greatly from the no hand-checking rule. It took away one of his biggest weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

Please explain.

[QUOTE=LT Ice Cream]I didn't start watching basketball until 2008, and most of the people you are dealing with here probably never saw Payton play either. It's not that we underrate him, he is just unfortunately irrelevant for my generation of NBA fans. Even Jordan will be relatively unknown by the youth 10 years from now. That's just how it goes.

But from what you guys are saying, it seems that he should be rated above Nash because Nash is a poor defender.[/QUOTE]
Payton would've had a ring. But Jordan said no no.

[QUOTE=Meticode]Payton would've had a ring. But Jordan said no no.[/QUOTE]
Payton does have a ring though!


:lol

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Kidd-Nash is debatable, but I give the edge to Nash there. That being said, I felt like Nash benefited greatly from the no hand-checking rule. It took away one of his biggest weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

Yes, right after the hand check rule changed and defenses weren't allowed to guard the paint, Nash went off and excelled. I think every point guard today is overrated. Thomas and KJ would have murdered everyone if they played with today's rules. You don't even need to have a jumpshot to be a top PG today. If defenses can't touch you, you are going to be able to make a play.

Kidd was far below Payton's level of defense, but Kidd was a VERY VERY good defender. All those all defense teams he has he actually earned and deserved.

If I have a good defensive big, I'd pick Nash. Otherwise Payton. Lets not forget Steve Nash is one of the GOAT shooter and GOAT playmaker.

What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?

[QUOTE=keep-itreal]What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?[/QUOTE]


He was versatile. He could shoot threes if he had to, but he was streaky so he didn't shoot too many for most of his career. He was excellent in the post for his size and he took smart shots. Payton was efficient and rarely took low percentage shots. That's why before Kemp left, he was regularly shooting 50% or close to it.

I love the Glove. I was rooting for him in 1996.
Payton is a top 5 PG, and will be there for awhile.

[QUOTE=hayden695]How are they same efficiency wise?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=I'm Seriously]Payton's career TS% 52.8 Paytons peak TS% 56.4 averaging 20.6 PPG

Nash's career TS% 60.6 Nash's peak TS% 65.4 averaging 18.6 PPG

I agree that the Glove was the better all around player, but effeciency wise it's Nash and it's not even close.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected.

[QUOTE=DeronMillsap]I love the Glove. I was rooting for him in 1996.
Payton is a top 5 PG, and will be there for awhile.[/QUOTE]

Top 5:

Magic/Big O/Stockton/Isiah/Glove

Cousy could be in there too I suppose.

He's still no Rondo. Or Rose for that matter.

[QUOTE=LT Ice Cream]I didn't start watching basketball until 2008, and most of the people you are dealing with here probably never saw Payton play either. It's not that we underrate him, he is just unfortunately irrelevant for my generation of NBA fans. [B]Even Jordan will be relatively unknown by the youth 10 years from now. That's just how it goes. [/B]
.[/QUOTE]



Shit, thats already starting now.

[QUOTE=keep-itreal]What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?[/QUOTE]

He had the mid range game, he had the running floater, he was good at going to the whole and finishing with a lay up but he also was very very good with his post up game. Dribbling with his back to the hoop just backing his defender down. I can't think of very many instances of GP dunking a ball, lol. Rose has a way to go before he can deserved to be mentioned with the likes of GP.

Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.

[QUOTE=oh the horror]Shit, thats already starting now.[/QUOTE]

yup, sports stars only remain popular with those who witnessed their feats first-hand. Jordan is just the guy from 2k11 according to some of the kids I deal with.

[QUOTE=Force]
Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.[/QUOTE]



And most of the time, probably talking alittle TOO fu*kin much on the court. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=oh the horror]And most of the time, probably talking alittle TOO fu*kin much on the court. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


He made Bimbo Coles cry. Dead serious.

[QUOTE=D.J.]On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

I guess I need to start posting more on ISH again :lol

[QUOTE=GP_20]I guess I need to start posting more on ISH again :lol[/QUOTE]

He baaaaaaack...

Shit just got serious:lol

he defended MJ better than anybody IMO.

I thought he outplayed him in a few of those games but his efforts wasnt good enough :)

Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.[/QUOTE]

i agree with this. payton is still one of the greats and one of my favourites.

and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.

Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.