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A good much of you people believe it was tougher, even the statheads, but the numbers don't really support it.
I just want someone to explain to me how the Illegal defense Hand-check Era made scoring harder, but yet players had higher FG%s and point totals.
If I remember correctly the answer is
1. "Stats lie"
2. "Players lost fundamentals"
3. "Weakened shot selection"
Without any statistical evidence to support anything
:oldlol:
Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?[/QUOTE]
Their scoring efficiency suck because they take questionable shots, and lack the proper game fundamentals.
next to no post play leads to chucking.
no hand-check has every wing player thinking to be like mike or a.i.
how many big man are amongst the scoring leaders now?
the ones that are (dirk+durant, even amare) are jump shooters.
[QUOTE=-23-]Their scoring efficiency suck because they take questionable shots, and lack the proper game fundamentals.[/QUOTE]
yeah i agree, because rookie-89 jordan was so fundamentally sound as he scored to the tune of 53% and such...
[QUOTE=Teanett]next to no post play leads to chucking.
no hand-check has every wing player thinking to be like mike or a.i.
how many big man are amongst the scoring leaders now?
the ones that are (dirk+durant, even amare) are jump shooters.[/QUOTE]
so it was easier to get to the paint back then?
FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.
eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.
Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.
Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.
[QUOTE=SinJackal][B]FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.
[/B]
eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.[/QUOTE]
This and the much better post players pre no handcheck era increased FG%
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?[/QUOTE]
wholey macrel, repped
The Jordan rules were basically a zone defense with a defender shading Jordans side (DO NOT LET HIM GET THE BALL IN THE MIDDLE because then you can't shade effecively), and hit him everytime, hard
[QUOTE=SinJackal]FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.
eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.
Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.
Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.[/QUOTE]
so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?
[QUOTE=Christofire]so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?[/QUOTE]
And was also infinitely better at picking his shots
[QUOTE=Christofire]so it was easier to get to the paint back then?[/QUOTE]
harder. that's why they passed it to the post and start the offense there.
today you'll see players looking to drive, defenses have to rotate, pass goes out and chuck away...
[QUOTE=XxSMSxX]And was also infinitely better at picking his shots[/QUOTE]
thats says alot about Kobe since there is only a 4% difference in their career Fg% dont you think?
[QUOTE=Teanett]harder. that's why they passed it to the post and start the offense there.
today you'll see players looking to drive, defenses have to rotate, pass goes out and chuck away...[/QUOTE]
sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?
[QUOTE=Christofire]so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?[/QUOTE]
that's one of the reasons.
another one is that he generally took better shots.
the main reason is that he was better. :D
I thought it was common knowledge.
The main reason is that single players today shoot more 3 pointers in one season than entire teams. That's the main reason.
Other lower reasons was that back then the game was more Center dominated. And I think players tended to try and get closer shots.
This is the 5th time I've said this, but I randomly took a year from the 80s and compared it to 2010, for just the 2 pt FG%, and they were both 48%.
[QUOTE=Teanett]that's one of the reasons.
another one is that he generally took better shots.
the main reason is that he was better. :D[/QUOTE]
right, right...i see i see
[QUOTE=Christofire]thats says alot about Kobe since there is only a 4% difference in their career Fg% dont you think?[/QUOTE]
Not really because Jordan still scored at a significantly higher rate than Bryant
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]If I remember correctly the answer is
1. "Stats lie"
2. "Players lost fundamentals"
3. "Weakened shot selection"
Without any statistical evidence to support anything
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.
[QUOTE=Christofire]thats says alot about Kobe since there is only a 4% difference in their career Fg% dont you think?[/QUOTE]
...and a 5ppg scoring difference.
[QUOTE=Christofire]so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?[/QUOTE]
Yes Kobe has shot 2300 more 3's than Jordan has. Kobe plays a much more perimeter oriented game always has. Also shooting 3's has a higher risk reward than a long 2 does so he takes more 3's like many players in the league do once they realize a 3 point shot is a better shot than a 2 point shot a couple feet inside the 3 point line
[QUOTE=Christofire]sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?[/QUOTE]
two other reasons:
-illegal defense was confusing for the casual fan
-team usa got whopped in international competition
[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.[/QUOTE]
But Bryant fan's get lambasted for using this same argument when comparing his FG% to Jordan's though.....anyway..lets not get into that, The hypocritical reasoning when people are defending jordan is stomach churning most times.
[QUOTE=Christofire]But Bryant fan's get lambasted for using this same argument when comparing his FG% to Jordan's though.....anyway..lets not get into that, The hypocritical reasoning when people are defending jordan is stomach churning most times.[/QUOTE]
no need to defend jordan over kobe. more points on higher %.
case is pretty clear.
[QUOTE=Christofire]so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?[/QUOTE]
Jordan didn't force up as many stupid shots. That's why his FG% was so much better. If you take away all their 3pt FGAs and remove their 3pt makes from their FGs, Jordan's FG% was still much higher. 3pt shooting volume has little to do with there being a FG% difference between those two players.
Less 3's , higher pace (more up-and-down style ala GS/PHX), and worse transition defense. 2001-2004 IMO were the greatest defensive seasons ever. The '96 Sonics, and '93 Knicks are however in my top 5-7 all-time defenses.
[QUOTE=Teanett]harder. that's why they passed it to the post and start the offense there.
today you'll see players looking to drive, defenses have to rotate, pass goes out and chuck away...[/QUOTE]
It was much harder also cuz of the defensive 3 second rule
Lol i love how there was like 200 posts with the exact same explanations in them :lol
[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.[/QUOTE]
It may impact FG%, but FG% isn't important. Points per possession is.
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]It may impact FG%, but FG% isn't important. Points per possession is.[/QUOTE]
Your name proves you're useless.
Bruce Blitz would end this thread.
[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.[/QUOTE]
great post !
look at the game, you see too much of players waiting behind the 3pts line in today's weak league. also, the paint is like a desert. just compare with a game of the 80's or 90's. today there is not battle in the paint ! it's unbelievable. 20 years ago, there were real big men playing basketball.
then, the new generation who came into the league in the 90's. they were superstars before putting their first basket in the nba, all the kobes, iverson, this crossover, and1 tapes generation who liked to hold the ball...99-04 low points come from this new style of play. the point guard walked to pass the mid court. then you can remember all those guys dribbling and dribbling, waiting nothing and finish with a one on one move. result : you have sometimes a move for the top 10 but you have 4 players who doesn't move...and people call that great basketball...:facepalm
as you can see, this is the complete mind of the game who has changed along with the lost of the funds.
and for this idiot of yao ming foot, i will give you a stat who is not the result of any stupid formula you like so much.
kobe's FG% will always be weak. it's his game who is like that, he has been a ballhog for so many years, taking stupid shots. kobe has shot better than his own team like 3 times in a 14 years career. he doesn't bring efficiency to his team. all the other great used to shot better than their team. they brought efficiency. no need to to talk about MJ's...
[QUOTE=SinJackal]FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.
eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.
Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.
Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.[/QUOTE]
This:applause: :applause: :applause:
Hasn't this been explained like 50 times? Why does it keep getting brought up?
if tough d means better d than the defenses on your local court > the defenses in the nba
[QUOTE=Christofire]sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?[/QUOTE]
:lol Ever hear of Tony Parker leading the league in in-the-paint scoring...gtfoh with this zone garbage
after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders
1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298
Source: Elias Sports Bureau
Doesn't look like this tough and heralded zone was keeping perimeter players out of the lanes
[QUOTE=Calabis]:lol Ever hear of Tony Parker leading the league in in-the-paint scoring...gtfoh with this zone garbage
after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders
1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298
Source: Elias Sports Bureau
Doesn't look like this tough and heralded zone was keeping perimeter players out of the lanes[/QUOTE]
This topic is so tired.
Teams now play from the outside almost exclusively. They take a ton of threes now as well. Of course fg% is down. The quality of shots taken are awful and there are no good big men anymore.
The fact that the current fg% is what it is just proves how much of a joke the defensive rules are today.
How the hell can Tony Parker lead the league in points in the paint and people claim its not easier to score from the perimeter?
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?[/QUOTE]
I would like to read an intelligent rebuttal to this post.
[QUOTE=blablabla]if tough d means better d than the defenses on your local court > the defenses in the nba[/QUOTE]
No team defensive scheme will ever be able to compete with good old fashion hand checking. The ability to steer an offensive player will always be a better defensive option than whatever team defenses are played today. So actually yes your correct
[QUOTE=jlip]I would like to read an [I][B]intelligent[/B][/I] rebuttal to this post.[/QUOTE]
You won't find it on this forum. That's for sure.