ISH Group Project: Ranking the top 25 NBA guards of all-time

[CENTER][SIZE="4"]ISH GROUP Project

Ranking the top 25 Guards in American Pro Basketball History [/SIZE][/CENTER]

If you would like to join the project or participate in the upcoming forward and center projects, let us know in this thread...

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[B]Official rules of the project [/B]

1) Only the votes of ISH members included in the main roster will count towards the final tally
1A) Please [B]BOLD[/B] your vote to make it easier for me to see.

2) Voting starts when I create the thread and ends when I close it. All threads will stay open for [I]at least[/I] 48 hours or until one candidate has received more than 50% of the possible votes.

3) In the event of a tie at the end of the 48+ hour period, I will announce sudden death and the next vote from a roster member or contributor will break the tie.

4) Anyone who distracts from the topic of the thread or those closely related and/or is seen as a general nuisance by the majority of interested parties on the roster may be removed from the project at any time. There is no appeal process.

5) Don't fu[COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]king take this seriously, it's an online list made by anonymous strangers.

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[B]The Roster [/B]

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
Kblaze8855 (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)



[B]------------
Top 25
------------[/B]
#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9
#8

[B]------------
Debate Threads
------------[/B]

#7
#8 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234923"]Dwyane Wade vs. Walt Frazier[/URL]
#9 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234778"]John Stockton vs. Walt Frazier[/URL] (11-12)
#10 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234708"]John Stockton vs. Jason Kidd[/URL] (13-3)
#11 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234593"]Steve Nash vs. Jason Kidd [/URL] (9-10)
#12 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6327028#post6327028"]Steve Nash vs. Clyde Drexler[/URL] (10-9)
#13 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234317"]Steve Nash vs. Gary Payton[/URL] (11-4)
#14 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234184"]Allen Iverson vs. Gary Payton[/URL] (3-13)
#15 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234012"]Allen Iverson vs. George Gervin[/URL] (9-6)
#16 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233956"]Hal Greer vs. George Gervin[/URL] (2-10)
#17 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6308405#post6308405"]Hal Greer vs. Sam Jones[/URL] (8-7)
#18 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233690"]Hal Greer vs. Ray Allen[/URL] (11-3)
#19 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233539"]Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen[/URL] (4-8)
#20 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233386"]Reggie Miller vs. Dennis Johnson[/URL] (10-4)
#21 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233240"]Tiny Archibald vs. Dennis Johnson[/URL] (6-7)
#22 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233078"]Tiny Archibald vs. Tracy McGrady[/URL] (7-6)
#23 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232980"]Earl Monroe vs. Tiny Archibald[/URL] (0-9)
#24 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232748"]Earl Monroe vs. Joe Dumars[/URL] (5-3)
#25 [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232506"]Bill Sharman vs. Joe Dumars[/URL] (4-5)
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232342"]Kevin Johnson vs. Bill Sharman[/URL] (4-6)
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232340"]Chris Paul vs. Joe Dumars[/URL] (7-8)

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]So here is the idea. We take the collective intelligence of ISH (I know scary right) and try to come up with a list of the best 25 guards, forwards and centers in NBA history.

We eliminate PG vs. SG and SF vs. PF which eliminates those pointless debates. The only tough one will be Tim Duncan, but I think he has to go as a F since PF is officially his position.

Here's how it works. Volunteer to participate, if two other members vouch for you, you're in. We'll take between 15 and 25 people for the project.

The opening round will be everyone making their own top 25 list and posting it/editing it as the debate goes on. After a week everyone's list will be final. I'll assign points (25 for first, 1 for 25th) and tally up each players score then post the top 26. From there we will debate and vote on individual match-ups starting with #26 vs. #25. The player who wins the vote will advance to face the #24 ranked player and we will debate that. The player who losses the vote will be slotted in the appropriate spot and that will be our final result.

Do we have any interest?[/QUOTE]
I'm down. I have an old list I made a while back I'll try to search for.

I will participate in this project.

We gotta start off by who a guard and who's a forward?

Arizin
McGrady
Vince Carter
Lou Hudson
Cliff Hagan
Richie Guerin

Are they gonna be small forwards or shooting guards in these rankings.

I know I'm new to the boards, but I'd be very interested and feel qualified to join in.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]We gotta start off by who a guard and who's a forward?

Arizin
McGrady
Vince Carter
Lou Hudson
Cliff Hagan
Richie Guerin

Are they gonna be small forwards or shooting guards in these rankings.[/QUOTE]

Arizin and Hagan almost always played forward. They never started at guard.

I see Vince and T-MAC as guards as well as Richie Guerin who always played guard from what I can recall, first alongside Dick McGuire, then Lenny Wilkens.

Hudson is a forward.

Any objections there?

[QUOTE]
Here's how it works. Volunteer to participate, if two other members vouch for you, you're in. We'll take between 15 and 25 people for the project.
[/QUOTE]
I think you're asking for too much here. I feel like only 10-15 will participate at the most, 25 is too much. And I don't know about the vouching part because that will probably take a while. Maybe you should just get these possible participants to just show (link) their best posts on this site and you judge whether they are worthy or not.

[QUOTE=WillC]I know I'm new to the boards, but I'd be very interested and feel qualified to join in.[/QUOTE]

I'll be the first to vouch for you based on your blog alone.

Also @ ALL

Here is a list of sixty-four guards I believe we should consider:

Allen, Ray
Archibald, Nate
Billups, Chauncey
Bing, Dave
Bryant, Kobe
Carter, Vince
Cassell, Sam
Cheeks, Maurice
Cousy, Bob
Davies, Bob
Davis, Walter
Drexler, Clyde
Dumars, Joe
Frazier, Walt
Gervin, George
Ginobili, Manu
Gola, Tom
Goodrich, Gail
Greer, Hal
Guerin, Richie
Hardaway, Anfernee
Hardaway, Tim
Iverson, Allen
Johnson, Dennis
Johnson, Kevin
Johnson, Magic
Jones, Sam
Jordan, Michael
Kidd, Jason
Maravich, Pete
Martin, Slater
McGrady, Tracy
McGuire, Dick
Miller, Reggie
Moncrief, Sidney
Monroe, Earl
Nash, Steve
Nixon, Norm
Parker, Tony
Paul, Chris
Payton, Gary
Price, Mark
Richmond, Mitch
Robertson, Alvin
Robertson, Oscar
Rodgers, Guy
Rose, Derrick
Seymour, Paul
Sharman, Bill
Sloan, Jerry
Sprewell, Latrell
Stockton, John
Thomas, Isiah
Thompson, David
Van Lier, Norm
Wade, Dwyane
Wanzer, Bobby
West, Jerry
Westphal, Paul
White, JoJo
Wilkens, Lenny
Williams, Deron
Williams, Gus
Zaslofsky, Max

[QUOTE=ThaSwagg3r]I think you're asking for too much here. I feel like only 10-15 will participate at the most, 25 is too much. And I don't know about the vouching part because that will probably take a while. Maybe you should just get these possible participants to just show (link) their best posts on this site and you judge whether they are worthy or not.[/QUOTE]


I was mostly just trying to put a limit on it. This project is very flexible. Just gauging response right now.

This isn't in order or final, just off the top of my head...

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Gervin
Oscar Robertson
T-Mac
Vince Carter
AI
Drexler
West
Havlicek?
DWade
Ray Allen
Payton
Frazier
Stockton
Kidd

[QUOTE=RRR3]This isn't in order or final, just off the top of my head...

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Gervin
Oscar Robertson
T-Mac
Vince Carter
AI
Drexler
West
Havlicek?
DWade
Ray Allen
Payton
Frazier
Stockton
Kidd[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna start with this guys list and take off Havlicek because I think he's more of a Small forward. And I'd add Nash, KJ, Dwill, Cousy, Zeke and then for the other 3 slots probably...Reggie, Pistol, and hmm...I have no clue. Those are around my top 25. Although Carter and T-Mac I could easily say their way out of it.

Sam Jones, Hal Greer, and Jerry Sloan as well. Shit forgot Pearl

Just realized I forgot CP3. lol. That definitely throws out Dwill.

[QUOTE=Rose]I'm gonna start with this guys list and take off Havlicek because I think he's more of a Small forward. And I'd add Nash, KJ, Dwill, Cousy, Zeke and then for the other 3 slots probably...Reggie, Pistol, and hmm...I have no clue. Those are around my top 25. Although Carter and T-Mac I could easily say their way out of it.

Sam Jones, Hal Greer, and Jerry Sloan as well.[/QUOTE]

you in? this is sort of the next best thing to my failed panel of 21 idea...

[QUOTE=Rose]I'm gonna start with this guys list and take off Havlicek because I think he's more of a Small forward. And I'd add Nash, KJ, Dwill, Cousy, Zeke and then for the other 3 slots probably...Reggie, Pistol, and hmm...I have no clue. Those are around my top 25. Although Carter and T-Mac I could easily say their way out of it.

Sam Jones, Hal Greer, and Jerry Sloan as well.[/QUOTE]
You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]you in? this is sort of the next best thing to my failed panel of 21 idea...[/QUOTE]
Haha it failed? Not enough interest?

I'll definitely comment and help. But much before the 80s, and basically all I know is Bill Simmons opinion.:lol Except on the important guys that are top 50 or so,

[QUOTE=RRR3]You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.[/QUOTE]

McGrady has had a better career than Cousy? Wow. What criteria are you using? PPG?

Cousy was All-NBA 1st Team 10 times and won multiple championships.

McGrady never got out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

[QUOTE=RRR3]You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree. I think if Tmac gave a shit he's a top 20 player. I wouldn't say he's had a better career than those guys for sure though. Specifically Cousy. I think when judging guys before the modern era. You have to take into account how well they dominated it. And with the exception of Oscar, he was above all his peers.

D-will's had some pretty good effective seasons. He's been as much as I hate this word,...very efficient, which makes up for the lack of sheer numbers. I can definitely see how you'd say he's not top 25 though. He didn't really do much the first 1.5 years of his career.

[QUOTE=WillC]McGrady has had a better career than Cousy? Wow. What criteria are you using? PPG?

Cousy was All-NBA 1st Team 10 times and won multiple championships.

McGrady never got out of the 1st round of the playoffs.[/QUOTE]


McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. McGrady played on terrible Orlando teams, and he and Yao were rarely healthy at the same time in Houston.

[QUOTE=Rose]Oh I agree. I think if Tmac gave a shit he's a top 20 player. I wouldn't say he's had a better career than those guys for sure though. Specifically Cousy. I think when judging guys before the modern era. You have to take into account how well they dominated it. And with the exception of Oscar, he was above all his peers.

D-will's had some pretty good effective seasons. He's been as much as I hate this word,...very efficient, which makes up for the lack of sheer numbers. I can definitely see how you'd say he's not top 25 though. He didn't really do much the first 1.5 years of his career.[/QUOTE]


Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)

[QUOTE=RRR3]McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. [/QUOTE]

And this is the absolute proof that PER and WS/48 are completely meaningless. I'll say it again: Cousy is a 10-time All-League 1st Team member and has multiple championships. TMac never got past the 1st round of the playoffs. So who gives a damn what his PER and WS/48 were at his peak? It's all meaningless.

[QUOTE=RRR3]McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. McGrady played on terrible Orlando teams, and he and Yao were rarely healthy at the same time in Houston.[/QUOTE]


The problem with this post is that the first point cancels out the second.

The reason McGrady's PER (which is a made up number by the way) is higher is because he had less players around him to share the statistical load. Right?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The problem with this post is that the first point cancels out the second.

The reason McGrady's PER (which is a made up number by the way) is higher is because he had less players around him to share the statistical load. Right?[/QUOTE]

McGrady played well with Yao Ming too when he was healthy. He also only had one year (2002-03) where he truly played as well as he should have IMO.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)[/QUOTE]
Totally agree. I say top 10 sometimes, and get called foolish. But He did some amazing shit the first half of last decade. His peak is honestly one of the best for guards. ever.

[QUOTE=WillC]And this is the absolute proof that PER and WS/48 are completely meaningless. I'll say it again: Cousy is a 10-time All-League 1st Team member and has [B]multiple championship[/B]s. TMac never got past the 1st round of the playoffs. So who gives a damn what his PER and WS/48 were at his peak? It's all meaningless.[/QUOTE]

Team accomplishment.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)[/QUOTE]

Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?

[QUOTE=RRR3]Team accomplishment.[/QUOTE]

Basketball is a team sport. An individual player should be measured by how much he helps his team achieve those type of things.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Team accomplishment.[/QUOTE]

Something McGrady never learned how to contribute to.

[QUOTE=Rose]Totally agree. I say top 10 sometimes, and get called foolish. But He did some amazing shit the first half of last decade. His peak is honestly one of the best for guards. ever.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. People laugh at me too when I say I think McGrady could have been better than Kobe and LeBron (at least at offense, they both give a shit on D lol). However, McGrady could play very good D when he wanted, although that wasn't nearly often enough. As it is, I think he's top 50 all time, but that's way lower than I expected him to end up.:(

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the [B]4th best player in the league. [/B]

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?

Basketball is a team sport. An individual player should be measured by how much he helps his team achieve those type of things.[/QUOTE]

You can make a legitimate case for McGrady deserving the 2002-2003 MVP.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?[/QUOTE]
I'm a huge T-mac guy. But can you honestly say he had a team to lead(aside from the couple of years where Yao was healthy with him).

To me, he offered one of the more complete packages a player can offer. Not a Pippen/LeBron type package. But the next big thing.

I'd also add, that to me him not caring, was him not taking care of his body. It's why Jordan, was so effective for so long, or at least a large part. He made sure to take care of all his physical attributes and then maximize them with sheer talent/will. Tracy was never capable of that, mostly because outside of a year or two in Orlando, and maybe a season in Houston he never cared.

[QUOTE=WillC]Something McGrady never learned how to contribute to.[/QUOTE]
You do realize his playoff stats are exellent, don't you? I'd like to see anyone win shit with those Orlando teams he played on (Freakin Andrew Declerq was the starting C)

[QUOTE=RRR3]Agreed. People laugh at me too when I say I think McGrady could have been better than Kobe and LeBron (at least at offense, they both give a shit on D lol). However, McGrady could play very good D when he wanted, although that wasn't nearly often enough. As it is, I think he's top 50 all time, but that's way lower than I expected him to end up.:([/QUOTE]
I'd disagree with him being top 50 all time. Maybe 75.


I like how the first couple pages of this are about a guy who's not even a top 10 guard ever.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This is my list;

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Oscar Robertson
7. George Gervin
8. Bob Cousy
9. Dwyane Wade
10. Clyde Drexler
11. Allen Iverson
12. Reggie Miller
13. John Stockton
14. Walt Frazier
15. Gary Payton
16. Ray Allen
17. Jason Kidd
18. Tracy McGrady
19. Pete Maravich
20. Steve Nash
21. Tiny Archibald
22. Vince Carter
23. Joe Dumars
24. Chauncey Billups
25. Chris Paul

Nice work Odinn, only a couple things I'd disagree with.:applause:

Also I realized I forgot CP3, when he's had arguably 2 of the best seasons for a pg ever.

[QUOTE=RRR3]You can make a legitimate case for McGrady deserving the 2002-2003 MVP.[/QUOTE]

Totally disagree. Duncan, Shaq and Garnett were all in their prime and on another level. If the award was going to go to anyone on an average team it was going to be Garnett. McGrady only got 4 of 199 first place votes. Kobe, who got twice as many votes, posted just as good of numbers while playing with Shaq.

[QUOTE=Rose]Nice work Odinn, only a couple things I'd disagree with.:applause:

Also I realized I forgot CP3, when he's had arguably 2 of the best seasons for a pg ever.[/QUOTE]

This is funny... Isiah Thomas's four season run from 1983-84 through 1986-87 is better than anything Chris Paul has done...

Just reminding everyone the purpose of this thread...please let me know if you intend to participate in the project.











So here is the idea. We take the collective intelligence of ISH (I know scary right) and try to come up with a list of the best 25 guards, forwards and centers in NBA history.

We eliminate PG vs. SG and SF vs. PF which eliminates those pointless debates. The only tough one will be Tim Duncan, but I think he has to go as a F since PF is officially his position.

Here's how it works. Volunteer to participate, if two other members vouch for you, you're in. We'll take between 15 and 25 people for the project.

The opening round will be everyone making their own top 25 list and posting it/editing it as the debate goes on. After a week everyone's list will be final. I'll assign points (25 for first, 1 for 25th) and tally up each players score then post the top 26. From there we will debate and vote on individual match-ups starting with #26 vs. #25. The player who wins the vote will advance to face the #24 ranked player and we will debate that. The player who losses the vote will be slotted in the appropriate spot and that will be our final result.

Do we have any interest?

Interested Members:

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
Will3
RRR3
Odinn

My list.



1. Michael Jordan
2. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy

[B]9. Walt "Clyde" Frazier
10. Jason Kidd
11. Clyde Drexler
12. Gary Payton
13. Allen Iverson
14. Dywane Wade
15. George Gervin
16. Steve Nash[/B]

17. Sam Jones
18. Hal Greer
19. Nate "Tiny" Archibald
20. Earl "the Pearl" Monroe
21. Reggie Miller
22. Tracy McGrady
23. Ray Allen
24. Dave Bing
25. David Thompson

Pistol Pete did get knocked out, happy Dash!

Wow, this was harder than it looked. I left off guys like DJ, CP3, Moncrief, Sharman, Lenny Wilkens, Dumars ect.

The group I bolded in the middle might be the toughest of the bunch to rank.

I'm definitely up for this. I feel quite strongly so look forward to joining in some good debates!

[QUOTE=Wukillabeez78]This is funny... Isiah Thomas's four season run from 1983-84 through 1986-87 is better than anything Chris Paul has done...[/QUOTE]
I...respectfully disagree. Because he had Dumars, and Microwave(while I realize they didn't share the floor together a lot), not to mention Tripucka(sp?) and Lambieer weren't slouches either and those two guards alone are better options than CP3 had in West, and Peja.

Although I do admit that zeke's pistons advancing farther in the playoffs does count for something.

Add my name to the list, I will participate. Just make sure you decide on how you want to do this. Is the group you decide on going to come up with the lists privately and then after coming to a consensus post it or is it just going to be a free-for-all with us just posting our lists individually (like some have done in this thread)?

[QUOTE=Rose]I...respectfully disagree. Because he had Dumars, and Microwave(while I realize they didn't share the floor together a lot), not to mention Tripucka(sp?) and Lambieer weren't slouches either and those two guards alone are better options than CP3 had in West, and Peja.

Although I do admit that zeke's pistons advancing farther in the playoffs does count for something.[/QUOTE]

Not sure if you know that era very well. Tripucka was there but he was just a one-dimensional scorer (which is why they got rid of him later on). Laimbeer was definitely good. Dumars was only there for the last 2 of those seasons I posted and he only averaged 10 points a game his 1st two years. Vinnie Johnson was there but again he was just a complementary player who was only a scorer. The Pistons in those years were no more talented than the teams Paul has been at the helm of recently and they weren't going far in the playoffs at that point. West is a better scorer (both inside and outside) than anyone Isiah had back then. CP3 has played with good scorers and slashers like Ariza, Posey, Bonzi Wells, Peja in addition to a good young center (Chandler) who was athletic enough to go up and finish alley oops. In their early years both Isiah and Paul were surrounded with a bunch of complementary players. The difference is the Pistons continued to build and add players through the draft and trades while the Hornets are basically more concerned about saving money.

Isiah in those years was putting up incredible numbers and trying to carry the team all by himself because he didn't have enough help to make headway against the 76ers, Boston, Bucks (hell they couldn't even beat the Knicks who really only had Bernard King). I'd rank Tim Hardaway's 4 year stretch from 1990-91 through 1994-1995 as being more comparable to Paul than what Isiah did...