Why is Kobe considered inefficient?

I don't get it.

The league average for FG% from 2000-2010 was around the 44-46% range and that is exactly the range Kobe shot from 2000-2010, so how exactly was he inefficient? How is he also inefficient when he always shot in the 55% to 57% range in TS% when the league average of TS% from 2000-2010 was always around the 52-54% range?

If I had to take a guess though it is because Michael Jordan's FG% was always in the 50% so the fact that his FG% was below Jordan's FG% all of a suddenly makes him inefficient opposed to not being as efficient as Michael Jordan. I think some people need to fix their word usage here because that doesn't make Kobe inefficient, just not as efficient or as good as MJ.

It's pretty funny how bad these MJ-Kobe comparisons have damaged Kobe's legacy.


Here are the actual League average for FG%

2000-2001 - 44.3%
2001-2002 - 44.5%
2002-2003 - 44.2%
2003-2004 - 43.9%
2004-2005 - 44.7%
2005-2006 - 45.4%
2006-2007 - 45.8%
2007-2008 - 45.7%
2008-2009 - 45.9%
2009-2010 - 46.1%

Kobe's FG% from '01-'10 (his prime) +/- means how much better or worse than it is compared to league average.

2000-2001 - 46.4% - +2.1
2001-2002 - 46.9% - +2.4
2002-2003 - 45.1% - +0.9
2003-2004 - 43.8% - -0.1
2004-2005 - 43.3% - -1.4
2005-2006 - 45.0% - -0.4
2006-2007 - 46.3% - +0.5
2007-2008 - 45.9% - +0.2
2008-2009 - 46.7% - +0.8
2009-2010 - 45.6% - -0.5

Funny for three of the seasons of the four seasons where his FG% were seasons where he suffered injuries. (all except '05-'06).


Here are Kobe's TS% and eFG% compared to the league average

Kobe's TS% from '01-'10 (his prime)

2000-2001 - 55.2% - +3.4
2001-2002 - 54.4% - +2.4
2002-2003 - 55.0% - +3.1
2003-2004 - 55.1% - +3.5
2004-2005 - 56.3% - +3.3
2005-2006 - 55.9% - +2.4
2006-2007 - 58.0% - +3.9
2007-2008 - 57.6% - +3.6
2008-2009 - 56.1% - +1.5
2009-2010 - 54.5% - +0.2

Kobe's eFG% from '01-'10 (his prime)

2000-2001 - 48.4% - +1.1
2001-2002 - 47.9% - +0.2
2002-2003 - 48.3% - +1.0
2003-2004 - 46.8% - -0.3
2004-2005 - 48.2% - the exact league average
2005-2006 - 49.1% - +0.2
2006-2007 - 50.2% - +0.6
2007-2008 - 50.3% - +0.5
2008-2009 - 48.8% - -1.1
2009-2010 - 48.7% - -1.4

Because if you say he's average from the field (which I do agree), some people will think your calling him an "average player" and won't understand why people call him great... when he's average.

That's the reasoning to some of these fans, unfortunately.

so far the most efficient player in the nba has been the biggest underachiver and choker over the past 9 years

so.... whats effiency ever won anyone?

is there a PER trophy?

It's just another myth.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]so far the most efficient player in the nba has been the biggest underachiver and choker over the past 9 years

[B]so.... whats effiency ever won anyone?
[/B]
is there a PER trophy?[/QUOTE]

A lot.

Since MJ (another efficient player) left:

Tim Duncan and Shaq won many titles due to their amazing and efficient play. As did Wade and Dirk.


Meanwhile, inefficient players like Iverson, Francis, V. Carter, and Marbury came into the league with all the hype and never won a thing.

Or maybe the NBA is inefficient as a whole.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]A lot.

Since MJ (another efficient player) left:

[B]Tim Duncan[/B] and Shaq won many titles due to their amazing and efficient play. As did Wade and Dirk.


Meanwhile, inefficient players like Iverson, Francis, V. Carter, and Marbury came into the league with all the hype and never won a thing.[/QUOTE]
Kobe was more efficient than Duncan (compare their TS%) so it's pretty clear you don't know anything.

I love how you forgot to mention Tmac as inefficient when he was more inefficient than Carter.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]A lot.

Since MJ (another efficient player) left:

Tim Duncan and Shaq won many titles due to their amazing and efficient play. As did Wade and Dirk.


Meanwhile, inefficient players like Iverson, Francis, V. Carter, and Marbury came into the league with all the hype and never won a thing.[/QUOTE]
kobe won more rings than shaq duncan wade and dirk

because he takes 26 shots to score 28 pts

because he takes 30 shots to score 30 pts

because he has to take 32 shots to score 34 pts

its ridiculous for somebody labeled "shooting" guard.

His 44%FG is downright disguisting in an era he is barely touched.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]so far the most efficient player in the nba has been the biggest underachiver and choker over the past 9 years

so.... whats effiency ever won anyone?

is there a PER trophy?[/QUOTE]



Actually, when there was a chance to win something he was very inefficient by his standards.


Your argument trying to discredit efficiency is invalid

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]because he takes 26 shots to score 28 pts

because he takes 30 shots to score 30 pts

because he has to take 32 shots to score 34 pts

its ridiculous for somebody labeled "shooting" guard.

His 44%FG is downright disguisting in an era he is barely touched.[/QUOTE]
he took 27 fg to score 35.5 in 06 07 22 fg to score 31.6 the year after

Peak Kobe as "The Man"

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]
FG%
2003-2004 - 43.8% - -0.1
2004-2005 - 43.3% - -1.4
2005-2006 - 45.0% - -0.4
2006-2007 - 46.3% - +0.5
2007-2008 - 45.9% - +0.2
2008-2009 - 46.7% - +0.8
2009-2010 - 45.6% - -0.5

eFG%
2003-2004 - 46.8% - -0.3
2004-2005 - 48.2% - the exact league average
2005-2006 - 49.1% - +0.2
2006-2007 - 50.2% - +0.6
2007-2008 - 50.3% - +0.5
2008-2009 - 48.8% - -1.1
2009-2010 - 48.7% - -1.4[/QUOTE]

WOW. He has been BELOW the league avg since Shaq left?? Thats... not impressive.

What you should be doing is comparing to other 2 guards. The fact that bigs shoot >>>>> Kobe is rather immaterial. He is decidedly >>>>>> Avg compared to others at his position.

I still expected his FG% to be higher than the league avg though.

He's no inefficient, but he is when compared to other great scorers. He is average efficiency wise when compared to the rest of the league, he just does it on great volume.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]because he takes 26 shots to score 28 pts

because he takes 30 shots to score 30 pts

because he has to take 32 shots to score 34 pts

its ridiculous for somebody labeled "shooting" guard.

His 44%FG is downright disguisting in an era he is barely touched.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z400/SubConThreads/34jbv4n.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]because he takes 26 shots to score 28 pts

because he takes 30 shots to score 30 pts

because he has to take 32 shots to score 34 pts

its ridiculous for somebody labeled "shooting" guard.

His 44%FG is downright disguisting in an era he is barely touched.[/QUOTE]

All of this. Kobrick has just been fortunate to play with exceptional front courts.

So many haters.

:roll:

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow][IMG]http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z400/SubConThreads/34jbv4n.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Lol

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Kobe was more efficient than Duncan (compare their TS%) so it's pretty clear you don't know anything.

I love how you forgot to mention Tmac as inefficient when he was more inefficient than Carter.[/QUOTE]


TS% is GARBAGE.....it gives brownie points for those who get an abnormal amount of FT's vs. FG attempts. it doesn't measure FLOOR SHOOTING in any way.

if-you-look-at-kobe's-box-scores-there-are-a-ton-of-times-he's-taking-20+shots-and-making-a-low-percentage-of-them.

even-if-kobe-is-great-at-making-tough-or-clutch-shots,it-kills-me-how-he-seems-to-make-shots-harder-and-how-individual-he-plays.

The league average isn't shot under the pressure of a double team or being the guy that takes the bail-out shot when the clock is running down. This is partially Bryant's own fault for taking shots against double-coverage and it'd be easier for him if he played off of his bigs more. But regardless you shouldn't make the mistake of judging a player just based on a statistic.

Here's a prime example how FT's (officiating) affects TS%:


2005 Kobe Bryant = 56.3% TS%.

2009 Kobe Bryant = 56.1% TS%.....:facepalm

2005 Bryant = 43.3%FG, 33.9% 3's, 81.6%FT..
2009 Bryant = 46.7%FG, 35.1% 3's, 85.6%FT.. :wtf:

Now who here would argue that Kobe was better during the 2005 season vs. 2009?? I would hope NO ONE, if your smart.

How does Kobe shoot better in every aspect of shooting, but have a WORSE TS%??

Easy, FT's.....2005 = 10.1 FT's a game....2009 = 6.9 FT's a game.

This more than proves how TS % is absolute GARBAGE when judging a players scoring efficiency....

If your shooting better in every aspect of scoring across the board....you were a better shooter that year, PERIOD>

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]The league average isn't shot under the pressure of a double team or being the guy that takes the bail-out shot when the clock is running down. This is partially Bryant's own fault for taking shots against double-coverage and it'd be easier for him if he played off of his bigs more. But regardless you shouldn't make the mistake of judging a player just based on a statistic.[/QUOTE]

Shot selection is part of being a great scorer. LeBron and Durant rarely take the shots Bryant does because they're sub 40% shots that just hurt their teams.

[QUOTE=bwink23]TS% is GARBAGE.....it gives brownie points for those who get an abnormal amount of FT's vs. FG attempts. it doesn't measure FLOOR SHOOTING in any way.[/QUOTE]

I believe getting foul shots are even more of an efficient way to score because it puts the other team in penalty and changes how they must defend you. Creating contact while shooting is an art and those who have the ability to finish after contact are generally the most efficient players in the league.

It's because he can't do this.

Jordan: 1987-88 - 35.0 PPG / .535 FG% / .603 TS% / .537 eFG%
Jordan: 1988-89 - 32.5 PPG / .538 FG% / .614 TS% / .546 eFG%
Jordan: 1989-90 - 33.6 PPG / .526 FG% / .606 TS% / .550 eFG%
Jordan: 1990-91 - 31.5 PPG / .539 FG% / .605 TS% / .547 eFG%

via basketball-reference.com

[QUOTE=28renyoy]Shot selection is part of being a great scorer. LeBron and Durant rarely take the shots Bryant does because they're sub 40% shots that just hurt their teams.[/QUOTE]
I have no real criticism for Durant's approach. James, however, has gone overboard in the opposite direction in the past. I like him more than Bryant but I can't defend some of the things we've seen from him in the clutch and justhope for his sake it's a mental thing he can get over. Bryant just has an unrepentant scorer's mentality. It means he'll never shoot 50% but he's got five rings and was the best player for two of them. Hard to argue with those results. If James had Bryant's mentality Miami would have beat Dallas.

Had Kobe not taken all of those last second end of quarter shots, he would have averaged almost exactly the same but shot about .025 better.

He took 22138 shots in his 1135-game career. He probably takes 2 of those shots every game, but let's just say he takes 1. That means he could have averaged the same number of points by taking 22138-1135= 21003 shots while making the same amount of baskets, which is 10052. His FG% goes up to .479, which is very good for a volume scorer.

That would have also increased his 3 point % to .440, assuming 90% of those last second shots were 3 pointers, which is very likely.

Don't even tell me that he hasn't taken those shots throughout his entire career, and you damn well know there are certain players who won't take those shots even if their lives depended on.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]The league average isn't shot under the pressure of a double team or being the guy that takes the bail-out shot when the clock is running down. This is partially Bryant's own fault for taking shots against double-coverage and it'd be easier for him if he played off of his bigs more. But regardless you shouldn't make the mistake of judging a player just based on a statistic.[/QUOTE]
I agree.

People think we can judge who is a superior scorer simply based on who scores more ppg, higher TS%, higher FG%, higher eFG%, but the truth is that it goes beyond that. There are a numerous of other factors to determine who is the better scorer and why some players stats are like the way they are.

LeBron has never been the best scorer in the league to me despite the fact that he has led the league in scoring at some point and is efficient. The reason why he was never the best scorer in the league to me was because I could never depend on him in the clutch like I could with Kobe back in his prime ('06-'09) or Durant today.

There are too many factors that people love to ignore because of the amount of numerical data we have access to. Sadly, the numerical data does not give us all of the information.

I think he takes some of most ridiculous and stupid shots i have ever seen.Its a joy watching him when he makes those kind of shots however he takes so many of them.This is why he is by far the least efficient scorer in top 20 of all time.His IQ in this regard is so overrated.However this is what makes him kobe.Some of the shots he takes and makes its unbelievable.However sometimes he chucks chucks and chucks this is when it becomes very difficult to watch him.

[QUOTE=bwink23]Here's a prime example how FT's (officiating) affects TS%:


2005 Kobe Bryant = 56.3% TS%.

2009 Kobe Bryant = 56.1% TS%.....:facepalm

2005 Bryant = 43.3%FG, 33.9% 3's, 81.6%FT..
2009 Bryant = 46.7%FG, 35.1% 3's, 85.6%FT.. :wtf:

Now who here would argue that Kobe was better during the 2005 season vs. 2009?? I would hope NO ONE, if your smart.

How does Kobe shoot better in every aspect of shooting, but have a WORSE TS%??

Easy, FT's.....2005 = 10.1 FT's a game....2009 = 6.9 FT's a game.

This more than proves how TS % is absolute GARBAGE when judging a players scoring efficiency....

If your shooting better in every aspect of scoring across the board....you were a better shooter that year, PERIOD>[/QUOTE]
Wow, great post wink. This should put the TS nonsense to bed

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Wow, great post wink. This should put the TS nonsense to bed[/QUOTE]


There's a reason why you will never hear analysts and announcers talk of TS% and stick with the %'s individually....cuz the individual %'s are far more practical and accurate in judging player and team shooting.

TS % is just some crap that Hollinger put together to lump all scoring aspects into one formula, without taken the WEIGHT of each metric into account.....much like what he did with PER, which is also a complete joke of a stat.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Wow, great post wink. This should put the TS nonsense to bed[/QUOTE]

Only when it doesn't benefit your argument.

Kobe's TS was higher in 04-05 because he scored [B][SIZE="5"]27.6 PPG on 20.1 FGA[/SIZE][/B], plus he had [SIZE="5"]10.1 FTA[/SIZE].

It was lower in 08-09 because he scored [B][SIZE="5"]26.8 PPG on 20.9 FGA[/SIZE][/B], plus he had [SIZE="5"]6.9 FTA[/SIZE].

It's that simple, [SIZE="5"]he took more shots and scored less points[/SIZE].

[QUOTE=bwink23]

If your shooting better in every aspect of scoring across the board....you were a better shooter that year, PERIOD>[/QUOTE]
TS% also factors in the amount of shots one has taken from the field including FTs. I know you don't like TS% so we can just agree to disagree in this case.

Kobe scored more points in '05 than he did in '09 with less FGA and more FTA. That's why his TS% was higher. Like I said, being a better scorer goes beyond just who scores more ppg and has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS% though.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]because he takes 26 shots to score 28 pts

because he takes 30 shots to score 30 pts

because he has to take 32 shots to score 34 pts

its ridiculous for somebody labeled "shooting" guard.

His 44%FG is downright disguisting in an era he is barely touched.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]TS% also factors in the amount of shots one has taken from the field including FTs. I know you don't like TS% so we can just agree to disagree in this case.

[B]Kobe scored more points in '05 than he did in '09 with less FGA and more FTA[/B]. That's why his TS% was higher. Like I said, being a better scorer goes beyond just who scores more ppg and has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS% though.[/QUOTE]


EXACTLY....which is why TS% is garbage, and has zero value in the real basketball world. You can't judge the ACCURACY of those shots by his TS%. ACCURACY >>>>>>>>> TS%, as it's not dependent on how the ref's call a game...There is a significant difference in Kobe's TS% pre-rule changes and post rule changes due to the amount of FT's he was getting...but he's always near a 83-85% FT shooter no matter how the game is called.


Like i said....you CAN NOT be considered a more efficient scorer when you shoot better in every category during the year...That's just STUPID>

[QUOTE=barnett114]It's because he can't do this.

Jordan: 1987-88 - 35.0 PPG / .535 FG%
Jordan: 1988-89 - 32.5 PPG / .538 FG%
Jordan: 1989-90 - 33.6 PPG / .526 FG%
Jordan: 1990-91 - 31.5 PPG / .539 FG%

via basketball-reference.com[/QUOTE]
Fixed, this is all you need. TS and eFG are useless stats that need not be included in any basketball discussion.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]TS% also factors in the amount of shots one has taken from the field including FTs. I know you don't like TS% so we can just agree to disagree in this case.

Kobe scored more points in '05 than he did in '09 with less FGA and more FTA. That's why his TS% was higher. Like I said, being a better scorer goes beyond just who scores more ppg and has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS% though.[/QUOTE]


You want to tell me that kobe's worst FG% season EVER in his prime is OK just because the rules changes were dictating the amount of FT's he was getting.....:no:

:violin:

[QUOTE=bwink23]There's a reason why you will never hear analysts and announcers talk of TS% and stick with the %'s individually....cuz the individual %'s are far more practical and accurate in judging player and team shooting.

TS % is just some crap that Hollinger put together to lump all scoring aspects into one formula, without taken the WEIGHT of each metric into account. [SIZE="5"][B]Much like what he did with PER, which is also a complete joke of a stat.[/B][/SIZE][/QUOTE]:rockon: :applause:

[SIZE="7"]eFG%!![/SIZE]

FG% should be BANNED.

1. Kobe is more efficient than people give him credit for.

2. Efficiency is overrated. How and when you score your points is far more important.

That is all.

[QUOTE=Glide2keva]Fixed, this is all you need. TS and eFG are useless stats that need not be included in any basketball discussion.[/QUOTE]
Once again, fail poster is fail.

If a dude had lines like:

35 PPG 48% FG
33 PPG 49% FG
31 PPG 50% FG

You're assuming those are "worse" than the Jordan lines you commented on?

What if he shot 100% of his shots from 3 point range? Looks a lot better than Jordan's lines now, doesn't it?

:facepalm at you ****ing luddites. Statistics and technology evolve. Evolve with them.

[QUOTE=bwink23]You want to tell me that kobe's worst FG% season EVER in his prime is OK just because the rules changes were dictating the amount of FT's he was getting.....:no:

:violin:[/QUOTE]

**** the freethrows.

Kobe's TS was higher in 04-05 because he scored [B][SIZE="5"]27.6 PPG on 20.1 FGA[/SIZE][/B]

It was lower in 08-09 because he scored [B][SIZE="5"]26.8 PPG on 20.9 FGA[/SIZE][/B]


It's that simple, [B][SIZE="5"]he took more shots and scored less points[/SIZE][/B].