How good was Wilt Chamberlain defensively?

He was known as a great defensive player.

How focused was on he on defense? He was known as a good to great defender up until his peak in Sixers, where IMO he stepped up on this side of the floor, gave it more effort and was willing to play. I have him in the discussion for the honor of top defender in each of since those seasons.

I have him as the best defensive player in few seasons during the same time in a league with Nate Thurmond (candidate for GOAT defender), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (top 15 defender of all time at worst), Dave Cowens (another great stopper), Willis Reed and so on.

His impact was off the charts. His D bothered young, skinny and dominant Lew Alcindor in most of their match ups, as he had a share of their battles in which he won ('71 is a good example, Cavaliers fan got this covered).

And he pretty much shut down any opposing offensive player. Only Kareem and sometimes Reed gave him trouble. There were no DPOYs back in the day, no block stats.. but had they existed, IMO, he'd have been even a more dominant force on this side of the court.

What's your opinion? Where do you rank him on the list for GOAT defenders of all time? I have him at #5.. where do you rank him at the list of greatest shot blockers ever too?

Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% on prime defensive Wilt in '72.

Reported

How many players in the history of the planet do you think could have done this?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYq4CWeWaKg[/url]

*looks at watch*

PTB - watch this [I]complete-game[/I] highlight showcasing Wilt's defensive "intangibles" from a 1971 playoff game against the Chicago Bulls.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXHYlPECcc[/url]

This is actually the series immediately preceding his battle with Kareem - West and Baylor DNP. This game is a losing effort though, and he doesn't score a lot of points, but you can get a good idea of what his defensive impact was like at least in his Laker years. Jerry West is color commentating and describes him as "The Big Eraser" making up for a lot of defensive mistakes of other players.

Watch the video with "annotations enabled" for information that will pop up to add insight on things like who he's guarding and what to look for in the game etc.

You can just tell by the footage, he is the undisputed glue of that team. He's assisting his players, altering countless opponent shots, blocking shots, setting screens, facilitating offensive plays, split-second full-court outlet passes off his rebounds, startling fast-break presses, and he plays all 48 minutes against 2 young centers and he never fouls out (in fact, he never fouled out in his entire career). People assume he played soft because of that but you tell me if it looks like he's defensively soft because of foul fear... he impacts the entire flow of the opponents offense.

[QUOTE=millwad]Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% on prime defensive Wilt in '72.[/QUOTE]
And because one of the greatest players ever had a few good games in one season against him, that of course proves that he is useless.

We might as well just close this thread. I'm so glad that tiny samples can conclusively prove points.

This article uses the Defensive Win Shares Per Game statistic to rank the best defensive centers of all-time.

[url]http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/08/best-defensive-centers-of-all-time.html[/url]

Using that methodology, Wilt is the 2nd best defensive center of all-time.

Second or third best center defensively.

[QUOTE=WillC]This article uses the Defensive Win Shares Per Game statistic to rank the best defensive centers of all-time.

[url]http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/08/best-defensive-centers-of-all-time.html[/url]

Using that methodology, Wilt is the 2nd best defensive center of all-time.[/QUOTE]
A methodology based on WS?:facepalm :facepalm

Wilt can be named "the 2nd best defensive center of all-time" but using WS to say that?:facepalm

Wilt can guard all five opponents by himself, there's no need for his teammates. My gawd, he can stop a raging bull with his barehands, grab it by the tail and flung it several hundred feet away. True story, my grandpa saw it live. :bowdown:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GcwSU7q2cQ&t=27s[/url]

Wilt did nothing but choke slam helpless 6 foot white guys right? - Look I even have proof is based on this 3 second in-game footage of Wilt in the low post. :D

Javale McGee.

[QUOTE=Rnbizzle]Javale McGee.[/QUOTE]

:lol JaFail

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQiInX37oys[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27-jM2NvBIc[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR6TnQSgxO8[/url]

:roll:

[QUOTE=Rnbizzle]Javale McGee.[/QUOTE]
this

[QUOTE=millwad]Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% on prime defensive Wilt in '72.[/QUOTE]

Despite what the stats say - just like Russell - Wilt's role was entirely different and superior scoring does not automatically guarantee that Wilt was outplayed every time...

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OIpawBITrJM/T0yGz4ftw2I/AAAAAAAADFs/TaKd-CPdBkg/s800/April%252015%25201972%2520Chamberlain%2520blocked%2520Kareem%25205%2520times%252C%252019%2520blocked%2520shots%2520total.jpg[/IMG]
This is one of the games from the '72 [I]playoff[/I] series. (After all playoffs > regular season right?)

If his role is to be defensive - how are games like this considered unsuccessful or worse than Kareem (who's role was offensive)? - At worse he's doing a "good job considering his age" against Kareem. At best he actually renders Kareem ineffective through many of their career matchups considering Kareem's team depends on him to score a certain amount of points at a certain efficiency. Wilt didn't even have offensive plays for him - as long as Kareem's points or FG% is out of wack Wilt is doing his job and is probably not being outplayed. The regular season wasn't great for Wilt vs Kareem that year, but the playoffs look much better. Which is also entirely contradictory to a notion that he's a playoff Choker.

In the playoffs of Wilt's '72 title run he didn't do quite as well as he did against Kareem the season before but he still wasn't outplayed like your suggesting, he bested Kareem in the clinching games that really counted:

G1 Kareem > Wilt Bucks win
G2 Draw Lakers win
G3 Kareem > Wilt Lakers win
G4 Kareem > Wilt Bucks win
G5 Wilt > Kareem Lakers win
G6 Wilt > Kareem Lakers win

He got the job done. He really stepped it up the final two games. And even the games Kareem "outplayed" him that series, Wilt still obliterated Kareem's fg% and/or outrebounded him.

Good defender, but not as good as Russell. If Simmons was right, players could time Wilt's blocks because he crouched down and jumped each time, while Russell was much more unpredictable and could go up much quicker (up and down like a pogo stick, which Wilt couldn't do), so opponents couldn't time their shots against him.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]:lol JaFail

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQiInX37oys[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27-jM2NvBIc[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR6TnQSgxO8[/url]

:roll:[/QUOTE]

LMAO , that james jones one gets me every freaking time. no matter how much I watch it its still funny

[B]The way he fit into the System made him incredible both Offensively and Defensivley. I don`t know how good Defensively he was Individual wise and also Shot Blocking wasn`t counted hin his era and how he matched up Altering Shots Individual wise (Defensive Rating) but System wise he was as Monster Defensive Center

[U]Defensive Win Shares [/U]

1959-60 NBA 8.0 (2)
1960-61 NBA 6.5 (3)
1961-62 NBA 6.0 (2)
1962-63 NBA 5.0 (5)
1963-64 NBA 10.6 (2)
1964-65 NBA 5.5 (4)
1965-66 NBA 8.5 (2)
1966-67 NBA 7.0 (2)
1967-68 NBA 10.7 (1)
1968-69 NBA 5.3 (6)
1971-72 NBA 7.9 (1)
1972-73 NBA 7.5 (3)
[U][COLOR="Blue"]Career NBA 93.9 (4) [/COLOR][/U]
Career 93.9 (4)

[U]Offensive Win Shares [/U]

1959-60 NBA 9.0 (2)
1960-61 NBA 12.3 (2)
1961-62 NBA 17.1 (1)
1962-63 NBA 16.0 (1)
1963-64 NBA 14.4 (2)
1964-65 NBA 9.6 (5)
1965-66 NBA 12.9 (3)
1966-67 NBA 14.8 (1)
1967-68 NBA 9.7 (2)
1968-69 NBA 9.4 (3)
1970-71 NBA 8.2 (8)
1971-72 NBA 7.9 (8)
1972-73 NBA 10.7 (3)
[U][COLOR="blue"]Career NBA 153.3 (2) [/COLOR][/U]
Career 153.3 (2)

I think the Best Defensivce Centers Ever where Wilt, Healthy Walton, Eaton and David Robinson in terms of Rim Protection

As All Around Defenders and Invidividual Defenders probably Bill Russell and Hakem Olajwon[/B]

Too good.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]I don`t know how good Defensively he was Individual wise and also [B]Shot Blocking wasn`t counted hin his era[/B] and how he matched up Altering Shots Individual wise (Defensive Rating) but System wise he was as Monster Defensive Center
[/B][/QUOTE]
[SIZE="5"][B]*Shot blocking data!*[/B][/SIZE]



[B]Don Pierce, Kansas University's SID at the time, kept track of blocked shots.[/B] In both the 1957-58 and the 1958-59 KU media guides he wrote about Wilt's previous seasons stats including blocked shots.
182 in 27 games [B](Sophomore)6.7bpg[/B]
120 in 21 games [B](Junior) 5.7bpg[/B]
302 in 48 games [B](NCAA career) 6.3bpg[/B]



I have also tracked many of Wilt's NBA games that recorded "advanced statistics" via newspaper archive. This is only semi-organized at the moment but here's an indication of his NBA shot blocking ability from 1959-1968:

[B]August 20th 1959 - Maurice Stokes benefit game [/B]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hEUyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DuUFAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=6898%2C3405455[/url]
20 points 14 rebounds [B]10 blocks[/B] "in half the playing time" (~24 minutes of play)
*weighs 258, *can "lift" 358


[B]October 16th 1959 - (pre season?) Exhibition Game. [/B]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=tjdaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MUwNAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=750%2C995521[/url]
Wilt: 26 points [B]9 blocks[/B]
Bill: 16 points 5 blocks


[B]November 25th 1959 - Warriors @ Celtics[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195911250BOS.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Yx9RAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0CUEAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=7120%2C2927106[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MgkpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3NUEAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=1741%2C2786439[/url]
Wilt: 45 points 35 rebounds [B]6 blocks[/B]
Russ: 15 points 13 rebounds - missed much of 2nd half due to ankle sprain and 5 early fouls


[B]February 23rd 1960 - Warriors vs Celtics[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196002230BOS.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=masrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Qv0FAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=7088%2C957541[/url]
53 points 29 rebounds [B]11 blocked shots [/B]
*and 8 of: free throws missed?


[B]November 12th 1960 - Warriors @ Knicks[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196011100NYK.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-3dCAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L6sMAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=5585%2C1934748[/url]
22 points 30 rebounds [B]10 blocked shots[/B]
*Described Wilt as having an "at least 10 blocks"


[B]March 15th 1962 - Warriors @ Packers [/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196203140CHP.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cuNIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NgINAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=2612%2C1404720[/url]
"My record means nothing, would rather have the title" final regular season game.
34 points 33 rebounds [B]20 blocks[/B] ***"blocked about 20 shots"
*and 1 of: assists? turnovers? steals? free throws missed?


[B]December 26th 1962 - SFW @ Boston[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196212260BOS.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9rBOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OQEEAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=5381%2C3093627[/url]
"Wilt Victor, Team loses" (to the Celtics)
Wilt: 43 points 32 rebounds "at least a dozen shots" ([B]12 blocks[/B])
*and 6 of: assists? turnovers? steals? free throws missed?
Russell: 8 points


[I]January 21st 1963 - Celtics vs Lakers (Bill Russell impressive stat-line)
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ultYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=V_oDAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=4311%2C2748847[/url]
Bill Russell nearly complete stat line: 29 points 43 rebounds 12 blocks 5 steals 3 assists [/I]


[B]April 17th 1964 - PLAYOFFS G7 - Hawks @ SFU [/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196404160SFW.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9U0_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=sVAMAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=4985%2C692747[/url]
Wilt: 39 points (1-6ft) [B]12 blocks[/B] vs St Louis.

[I]**Wilt is traded**[/I]

[B]January 22nd-23rd 1965 SFU @ 76ers [/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196501210PHI.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=g_pHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JQANAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=2525%2C2295322[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UgNUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DTkNAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=5587%2C1754572[/url]
Wilt: 22 points (9-17fg) (4-10ft) 29 rebounds [B]12 blocks[/B]


[B]April 1st 1965 - PLAYOFFS G4 - Royals @ 76ers[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196503310PHI.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=skcqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OE8EAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=6195%2C275359[/url]
Wilt: 38 points (10-16ft) 26 rebounds [B]11 blocks[/B]


[B]April 7th 1965 - PLAYOFFS EDF G2 - Celtics @ 76ers [/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196504060PHI.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SX0sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4swEAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=7261%2C1385370[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NmMiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3KsFAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=2236%2C3664006[/url]
Wilt: 30 points (6-9ft) 39 rebounds [B]8 blocks[/B] 7(or 8) assists
Russell: 12 points (2-3ft) 16 rebounds 4 blocks 5 assists


[B]April 11th 1965 - PLAYOFFS EDF G5 - 76ers @ Celtics[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196504110BOS.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9UhQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_lYDAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=3556%2C1952624[/url]
Wilt: 30 points (4-7ft) 21 rebounds [B]2 blocks[/B] 2 assists 0 steals
Russ: 12 points (4-5ft) 28 rebounds 12 blocks 7 assists 3 steals


[B]January 30th 1966 76ers @ Detroit[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196601300PHI.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=DP5OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bQEEAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=7347%2C4888887[/url]
Wilt: 38 points (6-11ft) 23 rebounds [B]6 blocks[/B]


[B]November 8th 1966 [/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196611080DET.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GQAdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J5sEAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=5379%2C1439594[/url]
Wilt: 18 points (8-13fg)(2-7ft) 24 rebounds 4 assists [B]17 blocks[/B]


[B]January 15th 1967 [/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196701150BOS.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jsgoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dQYGAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=2672%2C2821872[/url]
Wilt: 19 points (5-8ft) 25 rebounds [B]13 blocks[/B]
Russell: 17 points (7-12ft)


[B]April 2nd 1967 - PLAYOFFS G2 EDF - 76ers @ Celtics EDF[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196704020BOS.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=EWMzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EeoFAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=743%2C348697[/url]
Wilt: 15 points (5-9 ft) 29 rebounds [B]5 blocks[/B] 5 assists


[B]April 11th 1967 - PLAYOFFS G2 EDF - Celtics @ 76ers[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196704110PHI.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=njdgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6m8NAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=4814%2C1918114[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4wdIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HAANAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=1181%2C5419592[/url]
Wilt: 29 points (9-17ft) 36 rebounds 13 assists [B]7 blocks[/B]
Russell: 4 points (0-1ft)


[B]April 14th 1967 - SFW @ 76ers NBA Championship G1[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196704140PHI.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KRNKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gYUMAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=1543%2C4981995[/url]
Wilt: 16 points (4-9ft) 33 rebounds 10 assists [B]9 blocks[/B] (including crucial final seconds block on Nate under the basket to send the game to OT)
Thurmond: 24 points (4-5ft) 31 rebounds

[I]**Wilt is Traded**[/I]

[B]December 22nd 1968 - Lakers @ 76ers[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196812220LAL.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PGJFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LrwMAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=5776%2C6077181[/url]
Wilt: 16 (or maybe 17) points (4-7ft) 22 rebounds [B]4 blocks[/B] in 48 minutes


[B]April 7th 1969 - Playoffs Lakers @ Phoenix[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197004070PHO.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SIEsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Vc0EAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=4989%2C1990260[/url]
Wilt: 12 points (4-12ft) 26 rebounds [B]12 blocks[/B]


[B]Fri 10/24/69[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196910240LAL.html[/url]
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bbYlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8_QFAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext%3A%20wilt%20chamberlain%20blocked%20shots&pg=5109%2C586614[/url]
Chamberlain 25 pts (7-18ft), 25 rebs, 5 as, [B]3 blocks[/B] (all vs Kareem), 9-14 FG/FGA W
Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts (5-9ft), 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

[QUOTE=Collie]Good defender, but not as good as Russell.[B] If Simmons was right[/B], players could time Wilt's blocks because he crouched down and jumped each time, while Russell was much more unpredictable and could go up much quicker (up and down like a pogo stick, which Wilt couldn't do), so opponents couldn't time their shots against him.[/QUOTE]

Simmons isn't exactly a good source for accurate Wilt Chamberlain information. I won't say don't believe it but I will say take it with a grain of salt.

Wilt's shot blocking numbers are crazy, I'd say if anything he might have even blocked [I]more[/I] shots per game than Russell - but that's not saying he was a better defensive player (at least for the first half of his career). I haven't tracked enough block stats for Russell yet to get the big picture but he blocked very near if not ~equal too Wilt's #'s but Russell was smaller/faster - often floated to the high-post vs Chamberlain's mostly low-post defense. The result is Russell, I'm certain, had more steals per game and had a broader defensive impact because he didn't wait for guys to get to the basket he had more flexibility to defend further out and into the passing lanes. I don't think anybody could get around Wilt's shot blocking by judging his jump as Bill Simmons suggests - nobody I've heard interviews from has ever described "figuring out" Wilt like that, in fact most of them say they were always unsuccessful driving on Wilt. The way to get around him or "figure him out" was probably just to stop driving and shoot from outside :lol

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Simmons isn't exactly a good source for accurate Wilt Chamberlain information. I won't say don't believe it but I will say take it with a grain of salt.

Wilt's shot blocking numbers are crazy, I'd say if anything he might have even blocked [I]more[/I] shots per game than Russell - but that's not saying he was a better defensive player (at least for the first half of his career). I haven't tracked enough block stats for Russell yet to get the big picture but he blocked very near if not ~equal too Wilt's #'s but Russell was smaller/faster - often floated to the high-post vs Chamberlain's mostly low-post defense. The result is Russell, I'm certain, had more steals per game and had a broader defensive impact because he didn't wait for guys to get to the basket he had more flexibility to defend further out and into the passing lanes. I don't think anybody could get around Wilt's shot blocking by judging his jump as Bill Simmons suggests - nobody I've heard interviews from has ever described "figuring out" Wilt like that, in fact most of them say they were always unsuccessful driving on Wilt. The way to get around him or "figure him out" was probably just to stop driving and shoot from outside :lol[/QUOTE]
Great Stuff throughout the thread, CavFTW. I'm under the impression he blocked more than Russell did as well. Why? Because they seem very careful not to say Russell had more blocks than him. The wording is Russell was superior defensively. Anything that isn't specifically worded with Wilt usually means read between the lines. I seen Wilt in an interview say, with Russell right there, that for every one shot that Russell blocked, he blocked three. I think he was referring to H2H comp, which Wilt usually made sure he outdid Russell.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Simmons isn't exactly a good source for accurate Wilt Chamberlain information. I won't say don't believe it but I will say take it with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

Then how about someone who's been presenting historical basketball information on the internet since it came to be what we know it as today, and who has been quoted on numerous occasions on this site?

That was one of the differences between Russell and Chamberlain defensively. Russell was more agile, a quick leaper and could cover more ground than Chamberlain. Russell would come out to guard guards and block shots on the perimeter. One memory I have is of Jerry West bringing the ball up the court, and about near the free throw line Russell picks him up. When he pulled up for a jumper, Russell was on it, pouncing like a cat and snuffing the shot, then grabbing it as the ball popped up in the air, and suddenly the Celtics were off and running in the other direction.

But I dislike using any personal recollection or anything, because no one has any reason to care about the recollection of a random guy on the internet. So here's someone whose account should have more meaning:

[B]Walt Frazier:[/B] [I]When you drove on him, you waited for the squat; then, if you timed it right, you could get your shot off. That was the main difference defensively between him and Bill Russell. Russell would stand straight up and you didn’t know when he was going to make his move and block your shot. When Wilt wanted to block you, he had to get ready first and set himself.[/I]

Sam Jones used to specifically do this, and was able to hit game-winners over Chamberlain because of this.

[I]"I’d rather drive against Chamberlain than Russell. Chamberlain doesn’t gather himself as quickly and you can throw it up there easier." [/I]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Wilt's shot blocking numbers are crazy, I'd say if anything he might have even blocked [I]more[/I] shots per game than Russell - but that's not saying he was a better defensive player (at least for the first half of his career).[/QUOTE]

Possibly. Chamberlain played more minutes than Russell, and people would hesitate to make sure they knew where Russell was, because he had the ability to come out of nowhere. Many players of that era speak about this. They had no such fear of Chamberlain, as players explained in the 1961-62 season:

[QUOTE][I]Opposing players agreed on one big difference . . . “[B]When facing Wilt, we may go by our man and we keep going, despite Wilt . . . When playing the (Boston) Celtics, if we drive past our defender, we stop and think of Russell . . . He figures to be around somewhere . . . That’s the difference of the pair on defense . . . Bill keeps you worried.”[/B][/I][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I haven't tracked enough block stats for Russell yet to get the big picture but he blocked very near if not ~equal too Wilt's #'s but Russell was smaller/faster - often floated to the high-post vs Chamberlain's mostly low-post defense.[/QUOTE]

Correct, as I've said.

[I]“Bill Russell used to be able to go out and block shots. You’ve got to differentiate that from Wilt Chamberlain, who would block the shots coming to the basket, but Russell would go out and deter you from shooting.” [/I]

[I]“[Wilt] was the center with [a] ball-and-chain on his foot. If you went out to the foul line to catch a pass, Wilt would stay under the basket. If you wanted to take a 15-footer, he’d let you. He waited for people to come to him before he’d block their shots, while Russell would chase you everywhere. I’ve taken 20-footers that were blocked by Russell.”[/I]

[QUOTE]Cowens says he likes to play against the Lakers because Wilt Chamberlain never comes out to guard him[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][I]In game No. 2 of the Laker-Warrior series, Chamberlain outrebounded Nate Thurmond, whose strategy was to attempt to lure the Laker giant away from the basket with his outside shooting, 30-14. The Lakers wound up winning the rebounding battle 55-47.

“We want him (Thurmond) to shoot outside. We’d rather see that than (Rick) Barry or (Jeff) Mullins shooting outside. [B]Anyway, it’s not my job to guard Nate when he goes outside[/B].”[/I][/QUOTE]

Pete Newell on the difference between the two:

[I]“When you analyze them defensively, you have to consider the style of defense each has played. Russell’s San Francisco team played a pressing man-to-man defense which forced opposing teams to drive past the front men and right into Russell’s arms. [B]Bill’s great mobility enabled him to block jump shots all over the court[/B].

“Chamberlain plays the middle man in a 1-3-1 zone defense. [B]His movements are restricted to an arc that doesn’t extend beyond the free-throw line[/B]. [B]He doesn’t move out very far to try to block shots[/B] because he wants to be in position for rebounding.

“But where Russell had a big edge was that he was more defensive-minded. He was a much quicker thinker on defense than Wilt,” Newell asserted.[/I]

You never see anyone give this analysis because people don't know enough, or it doesn't fit their agenda to fully explore it. Any quotes you see are the same things recycled over again instead of something you actually haven't seen before, such as the above, which I know no one other than myself has ever posted.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]The result is Russell, I'm certain, had more steals per game and had a broader defensive impact because he didn't wait for guys to get to the basket he had more flexibility to defend further out and into the passing lanes.[/QUOTE]

Correct.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I don't think anybody could get around Wilt's shot blocking by judging his jump as Bill Simmons suggests - nobody I've heard interviews from has ever described "figuring out" Wilt like that[/QUOTE]

Incorrect. Sam Jones used to do it. I gave that Walt Frazier quote. Just because you don't know something or never heard something, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Very few people now know anything about that time period anyway, and certain not modern-day fans.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Then how about someone who's been presenting historical basketball information on the internet since it came to be what we know it as today, and who has been quoted on numerous occasions on this site?

That was one of the differences between Russell and Chamberlain defensively. Russell was more agile, a quick leaper and could cover more ground than Chamberlain. Russell would come out to guard guards and block shots on the perimeter. One memory I have is of Jerry West bringing the ball up the court, and about near the free throw line Russell picks him up. When he pulled up for a jumper, Russell was on it, pouncing like a cat and snuffing the shot, then grabbing it as the ball popped up in the air, and suddenly the Celtics were off and running in the other direction.

But I dislike using any personal recollection or anything, because no one has any reason to care about the recollection of a random guy on the internet. So here's someone whose account should have more meaning:

[B]Walt Frazier:[/B] [I]When you drove on him, you waited for the squat; then, if you timed it right, you could get your shot off. That was the main difference defensively between him and Bill Russell. Russell would stand straight up and you didn

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Then how about someone who's been presenting historical basketball information on the internet since it came to be what we know it as today, and who has been quoted on numerous occasions on this site?

That was one of the differences between Russell and Chamberlain defensively. Russell was more agile, a quick leaper and could cover more ground than Chamberlain. Russell would come out to guard guards and block shots on the perimeter. One memory I have is of Jerry West bringing the ball up the court, and about near the free throw line Russell picks him up. When he pulled up for a jumper, Russell was on it, pouncing like a cat and snuffing the shot, then grabbing it as the ball popped up in the air, and suddenly the Celtics were off and running in the other direction.

But I dislike using any personal recollection or anything, because no one has any reason to care about the recollection of a random guy on the internet. So here's someone whose account should have more meaning:

[B]Walt Frazier:[/B] [I]When you drove on him, you waited for the squat; then, if you timed it right, you could get your shot off. That was the main difference defensively between him and Bill Russell. Russell would stand straight up and you didn’t know when he was going to make his move and block your shot. When Wilt wanted to block you, he had to get ready first and set himself.[/I]

Sam Jones used to specifically do this, and was able to hit game-winners over Chamberlain because of this.

[I]"I’d rather drive against Chamberlain than Russell. Chamberlain doesn’t gather himself as quickly and you can throw it up there easier." [/I]



Possibly. Chamberlain played more minutes than Russell, and people would hesitate to make sure they knew where Russell was, because he had the ability to come out of nowhere. Many players of that era speak about this. They had no such fear of Chamberlain, as players explained in the 1961-62 season:





Correct, as I've said.

[I]“Bill Russell used to be able to go out and block shots. You’ve got to differentiate that from Wilt Chamberlain, who would block the shots coming to the basket, but Russell would go out and deter you from shooting.” [/I]

[I]“[Wilt] was the center with [a] ball-and-chain on his foot. If you went out to the foul line to catch a pass, Wilt would stay under the basket. If you wanted to take a 15-footer, he’d let you. He waited for people to come to him before he’d block their shots, while Russell would chase you everywhere. I’ve taken 20-footers that were blocked by Russell.”[/I]





Pete Newell on the difference between the two:

[I]“When you analyze them defensively, you have to consider the style of defense each has played. Russell’s San Francisco team played a pressing man-to-man defense which forced opposing teams to drive past the front men and right into Russell’s arms. [B]Bill’s great mobility enabled him to block jump shots all over the court[/B].

“Chamberlain plays the middle man in a 1-3-1 zone defense. [B]His movements are restricted to an arc that doesn’t extend beyond the free-throw line[/B]. [B]He doesn’t move out very far to try to block shots[/B] because he wants to be in position for rebounding.

“But where Russell had a big edge was that he was more defensive-minded. He was a much quicker thinker on defense than Wilt,” Newell asserted.[/I]

You never see anyone give this analysis because people don't know enough, or it doesn't fit their agenda to fully explore it. Any quotes you see are the same things recycled over again instead of something you actually haven't seen before, such as the above, which I know no one other than myself has ever posted.



Correct.



Incorrect. Sam Jones used to do it. I gave that Walt Frazier quote. Just because you don't know something or never heard something, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Very few people now know anything about that time period anyway, and certain not modern-day fans.[/QUOTE]


Good info, thanks!
:cheers:

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Good info, thanks!
:cheers:[/QUOTE]

You're welcome.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]You're welcome.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Also:

[QUOTE]Just because you don't know something or never heard something, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Very few people now know anything about that time period anyway, and certain not modern-day fans.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to be objective but if I came off as otherwise than my bad. I assumed for you, what your accusing me of being... You know what they say about assuming :lol

I am likely younger than you - but I am not necessarily a typical "modern day fan"... I have something like 25-30 hours of 1950's/60's/early 70's NBA games/footage stored on my HDD, and I watch all of it - and constantly look for more. I read, bookmark, and organize countless old newspaper articles for pre-1974 advanced stats and a sense of perspective, and I just like researching anything/everything from the media black-hole of pre-1980's. No, I certainly won't know everything and I'll probably stand to be corrected again - but I'm also not oblivious to basketball before Magic and Bird

I won't argue with those that claim that Russell was the greatest defensive player of all-time. But, Wilt REDUCED opposing centers to Way below their normal shooting percentages in their known games, series, or even seasons. Many in the 10% range.

And, when he did want to absolutely stick to someone, he could, but that was not his role. Walt Bellamy, himself, came into his first meeting with Chamberlain averaging about 30 ppg. He claimed that Wilt told him that he would not score a point that game. AND, in the first half, Chamberlain supposedly held him scoreless, and blocked numerous shots. BTW, Wilt outscored Bellamy in that game, 51-14.

And while it is almost universally accepted that Russell held Wilt below his normal offensive numbers, how about the reverse? In Wilt's rookie season, he faced Russell in 11 games. In the known first ten, Chamberlain outshot Russell from the floor, .465 to .398. Which was interesting from two vantage points. One, Wilt only shot .461 from the field the entire season. And two, Russell shot a career high .467 that season.

In the 61-62 ECF's, while Russell did an outstanding job holding Wilt some 16 ppg below his seasonal average (BTW, Wilt "only" averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell in the regular season), and to a .468 FG% mark (Wilt shot .506 against the league, and .471 against Russell in the regular season), Wilt held Russell to somewhere around .420 shooting in that series (Russell shot .500 in his seven Finals games, and overall, in his 14 playoff games, with seven against Wilt, he shot .458 in the post-season.)

In the 63-64 Finals, I haven't seen Russell's FG% in that five game series against Chamberlain (Wilt averaged 29.2 ppg on .517 shooting against Russell), but Russell shot .356 in the entire post-season, and half of those ten games were against Wilt.

And, how about this? In the 64-65 Finals, and against LA, Russell averaged 18 ppg on a record .702 from the field. In the previous round against Wilt (who averaged 30 ppp and 31 rpg in that seven game series against Russell), Russell averaged 16 ppg on .451 shooting against Wilt. And that .451 mark was the highest that I could find by him in a post-season series against Chamberlain.

How about Russell in the '66 Finals, and again against the Lakers? He LED Boston in scoring, at 23.6 ppg. BUT, in the ECF's, and against Wilt, he was outscored, per game, 28 ppg to 14 ppg.

In the '67 ECF's, and in a season in which Russell shot .454 overall, Wilt held him to 10.2 ppg on .358 shooting.


How about against other opposing centers in the playoffs? In the '60 playoffs, Wilt held Red Kerr, who had shot .392 in the regular season, to .296 shooting in their H2H series. The two met again twice more in the post-season, but I could only come up with one of Kerr's FG%'s. In the '62 playoffs. Kerr shot .376, in a season in which he shot .443.

Wilt not only crushed Thurmond in the 65-66 season offensively, while scoring 29 ppg against him in nine H2H's, he faced Nate in three playoff series. He badly outrebounded him in all three (Nate only outrebounded him in a couple of their 17 games), he outshot Thurmond in all three of them by huge margins ( .500 to .392, .550 to .398, and how about the '67 Finals, in which he outshot Thurmond by a staggering .560 to .343 margin.)

Walt Bellamy shot .541 in the '68 regular season. Against Wilt in the playoffs... .421.

Then there was Kareem. In Kareem's '71 season, he shot .577 against the league. In 5 H2H regular season games against Wilt, he shot .438. In the playoffs, in five more H2H's, he shot .481. In the '72 WCF's, Kareem, who had shot .574 against the NBA in the regular season, could only shoot .457 against Wilt, and only .414 in the last four games of that series. And, in Wilt's LAST season, the two met six times in the regular season. In a season in which Kareem shot .554, Wilt held him to .450 shooting (while Wilt, himself, shot an eye-popping .737 against Kareem.)

BTW, in their two "clinching" H2h games in the '71 and '72 WCF's, Wilt outshot Kareem by a combined 18-33 to 23-60, or .545 to .383.

Incidently, Wilt played in 29 post-season series in career. I could only find TWO in which his opposing center shot over 50% against him. One was Zelmo Beaty shooting .521 against him in the '64 playoffs (in a series in which Wilt outscored him, per game, 38.6 to 14.3 ppg, and outshot him, .559 to .521.) And in the other, in the '72 Finals, Jerry Lucas, who shot an even .500 against Wilt (Chamberlain averaged 19 ppg on .600 shooting against him.) Furthermore, Lucas started out that series going 11 for his first 12. He shot 35-80 in the rest (.438), which in itself was impressive, given the fact that Lucas was firing away from as far as 25 ft.

And, for those that might question Wilt's "clutch" play in the post-season (and who might have missed this research)...

[QUOTE]The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.
[/QUOTE]

[quote=Collie]Good defender, but not as good as Russell. If Simmons was right, players could time Wilt's blocks because he crouched down and jumped each time, while Russell was much more unpredictable and could go up much quicker (up and down like a pogo stick, which Wilt couldn't do), so opponents couldn't time their shots against him.[/quote]
Bill has also said Wilt would go out of his way to lead the league in turnovers had it been an official statistic. He has excluded the '67 Sixers from his top teams all time list (and blatantly lied regarding Billy Cunningham's rookie year in an attempt to support such opinion). You don't need to rely on that clown as a source. Just watch the game footage, or find an appropriate evaluation from players/coaches of the time. ThaRegul8r has made a fine post above.


Russell didn't need to gather himself for the jump like the 300 lb Wilt. Below we can see an example of this.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=16m17s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=16m17s[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4LyUaNvrI#t=38m19s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4LyUaNvrI#t=38m19s[/URL]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Also:

[QUOTE]Just because you don't know something or never heard something, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Very few people now know anything about that time period anyway, and certain not modern-day fans.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to be objective but if I came off as otherwise than my bad. I assumed for you, what your accusing me of being... You know what they say about assuming :lol

I am likely younger than you - but I am not necessarily a typical "modern day fan"... I have something like 25-30 hours of 1950's/60's/early 70's NBA games/footage stored on my HDD, and I watch all of it - and constantly look for more. I read, bookmark, and organize countless old newspaper articles for stats and an idea of perspective, and I just like researching anything/everything from the media black-hole of pre-1980's. No, I certainly won't know everything and I'll probably stand to be corrected again - but I'm also not oblivious to basketball before Magic and Bird[/QUOTE]

The second sentence wasn't directed at you but rather a commentary about the modern state of affairs. Obviously you're making an effort to learn, which is more than most people do. "Very few people now know anything about that time period anyway," includes sportswriters who are paid to write and talk about sports, but don't have any historical knowledge about the game. For instance, the Kevin Love thing, where everyone was acting like Love was setting some NBA record with his double-double streak. You had [B]paid[/B] sports people who didn't know that Love wasn't anywhere near an NBA record, yet they had people thinking they were privy to NBA history. I remember in the early 80s, George Johnson had a double-digit block game, and a sports writer said that even the legendary Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain never had a 10 or more blocks in a game before, which was utterly absurd, since they had multiple double-figure block games. :facepalm

Your attitude is certainly commendable, and it's a shame that more people don't have that mindset.

As far as shot blocking goes, I believe Harvey Pollack has Wilt as the game's greatest volume shot-blocker.

But, I also found this interesting. Pslieas posted some research a while back, in which Chamberlain blocked about 7-8 bpg in his '72 season (in the known games, which were around 60 I believe.) And, in something like the known 50 games of Wilt's LAST season, in '73, Wilt was around 6 bpg.

Why is that interesting? Because Nate Thurmond and even Kareem were regarded asa outstanding shot blockers. YET, in the very next season, (and after Wiilt had retired), and when the NBA began to officially record blocked shots, Kareem averaged 3.5 bpg, and Thurmond was at 2.9 bpg.

[QUOTE=jlauber]As far as shot blocking goes, I believe Harvey Pollack has Wilt as the game's greatest volume shot-blocker.

But, I also found this interesting. Pslieas posted some research a while back, in which Chamberlain blocked about 7-8 bpg in his '72 season (in the known games, which were around 60 I believe.) And, in something like the known 50 games of Wilt's LAST season, in '73, Wilt was around 6 bpg.

Why is that interesting? Because Nate Thurmond and even Kareem were regarded asa outstanding shot blockers. YET, in the very next season, (and after Wiilt had retired), and when the NBA began to officially record blocked shots, Kareem averaged 3.5 bpg, and Thurmond was at 2.9 bpg.[/QUOTE]

Kareem was never in the class of Chamberlain or Russell as a shot blocker.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Kareem was never in the class of Chamberlain or Russell as a shot blocker.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but he did lead the league in four seasons. And, he anchored some great defensive teams in the early 70's.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I won't argue with those that claim that Russell was the greatest defensive player of all-time. But, Wilt REDUCED opposing centers to Way below their normal shooting percentages in their known games, series, or even seasons. Many in the 10% range.[/QUOTE]

As a result of their stylistic differences defensively, since Chamberlain was bigger and stronger, he stayed near the basket and so got his blocks on people who drove to the basket and on his man, while since Russell was quicker and more agile, he got his blocks all over the court, including out of nowhere and on the chase down blocks that LeBron James is renowned for nowadays.

[QUOTE=jlauber][QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Kareem was never in the class of Chamberlain or Russell as a shot blocker.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but he did lead the league in four seasons. And, he anchored some great defensive teams in the early 70's.[/QUOTE]

I'm aware of that. I was the first person to post Milwaukee's opposing field-goal percentages on the internet, and I believe I did so on this very site. He still wasn't in their class.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]As a result of their stylistic differences defensively, since Chamberlain was bigger and stronger, he stayed near the basket and so got his blocks on people who drove to the basket and on his man, while since Russell was quicker and more agile, he got his blocks all over the court, including out of nowhere and on the chase down blocks that LeBron James is renowned for nowadays.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I'm aware of that. I was the first person to post Milwaukee's opposing field-goal percentages on the internet, and I believe I did so on this very site. He still wasn't in their class.[/QUOTE]

Agreed again. Those Buck teams were not only holding teams to around .425 shooting, they were shooting nearly .500 themselves. Their '71 season differential of .085 is the largest that I could fine (.509 to .424.)

yes,top5..
Protect rebound,great blocker.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]