Who's better?
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Who's better?
Jesus.
Ray Allen.
Reggie was more clutch but Ray was better at Reggie in every aspect of the game so my answer is Ray Allen here.
Reggie has been overrated recently due to the increase use of TS%. TS% doesn't tell the whole story though.
[QUOTE=keep-itreal]Who's better?[/QUOTE]
Omg you've obviously never seen either play...atleast in their prime.
Ray is so much more than the average fan thinks he is. He's got elite level ball handling for the 2 guard spot, can create his own shot whenever he feels like it, and in the past could really throw it down as well.
But probably most posters never saw that side of Ray Allen, the guy on Seattle, the guy on Milwaukee.
Reggie is more clutch but his offense was so limited when compared to a guy like Ray
On a whim, I'd feel as though Ray Allen was the better player. Of course, it'd make sense to take a closer look though. I just tend to remember there being more aspects to Ray's game than to Reggie's.
Ray Allen better all around player but [B]I'd pick Reggie[/B] if i was GM... without a doubt. Back in day Reggie,Gary Payton and Allen Iverson were only guys who had mentality to go toe to toe with Jordan.He so good at using screens even though everybody knows what's gonna happen noone could defend it.
Reggie carried Paces so many times against greater teams.He has many legendary games at playoffs.He proved himself over and over again against great players at toughest stages.His intangibles crushes Ray Allen's.
Allen was able to do things Reggie can't but Reggie was one of the deadliest player ever on court.I'm a bulls fan and those games against Reggie's Pacers in late 90's were all epic.
[QUOTE=NewYorkNoPicks]Omg you've obviously never seen either play...atleast in their prime.
Ray is so much more than the average fan thinks he is. He's got elite level ball handling for the 2 guard spot, can create his own shot whenever he feels like it, and in the past could really throw it down as well.
But probably most posters never saw that side of Ray Allen, the guy on Seattle, the guy on Milwaukee.
Reggie is more clutch but his offense was so limited when compared to a guy like Ray[/QUOTE]
Imagine if Ray Allen wasn't traded after the Wolves drafted him.
Garnett and Ray Allen together would be multiple championships.
ray allen
[QUOTE=Pushxx]Imagine if Ray Allen wasn't traded after the Wolves drafted him.
Garnett and Ray Allen together would be multiple championships.[/QUOTE]
Those two definitely have some of the best winning mindsets in the game today, plus they're games definitely would have complemented each other. Prime KG in the post, gets doubled, kicks it out to Ray for an easy 3.
Marbury and KG looked real promising though. Steph used to be a baller man, a lot of people forget how skilled he was at one point, looked like a future hall of fame candidate sometimes. Too bad mentally he just wasn't mature, and didnt really grasp the team concept always.
Everyone here should agree on Ray Allen...
[QUOTE=NewYorkNoPicks]Those two definitely have some of the best winning mindsets in the game today, plus they're games definitely would have complemented each other. Prime KG in the post, gets doubled, kicks it out to Ray for an easy 3.
Marbury and KG looked real promising though. Steph used to be a baller man, a lot of people forget how skilled he was at one point, looked like a future hall of fame candidate sometimes. Too bad mentally he just wasn't mature, and didnt really grasp the team concept always.[/QUOTE]
Well that's the point. Ray was not a basketcase.
Ray Allen better all-around. Ray Allen probably had a better peak.
But Reggie was consistent and in the playoffs he showed he was much more than just a guy going around screens. Limited or not, he got it done.
It's just factually incorrect that he wasn't a great player. He wasn't just clutch, his volume of points was high and he had years where he was a huge scorer.
He played in a system. Maybe that worked better, as he was limited, but it shortchanged how good his numbers could have been. I think, from beginning to end, I probably take Reggie.
Reggie as a leader > Ray
But aside from that, I'll take Ray's all around game.
[QUOTE=Pushxx]Well that's the point. Ray was not a basketcase.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but what im saying is at the time, you really can't blame Minny for doing that trade...it looked correct at the time. A dynamic probably future all-star pg to create easy opportunities for their blossoming big man.
[QUOTE=NewYorkNoPicks]Yeah but what im saying is at the time, you really can't blame Minny for doing that trade...it looked correct at the time. A dynamic probably future all-star pg to create easy opportunities for their blossoming big man.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Ray Allen looked better to me in college and I thought he was going to translate to the NBA better.
[QUOTE]He so good at using screens even though everybody knows what's gonna happen noone could defend it.[/QUOTE]
Sure they could. He had multiple stretches in his prime putting up 16-17ppg for months. He wasnt having 2-13, 3-10, and 1-16 games in the playoffs because he was unstoppable.
I know you dont literally mean he couldnt be defended...but I dont think he even merits inclusion among the guys we say that of in hyperbole.
Especially the idea that his screens got him shots at some high rate. he probably ran off 30-50 screens a night and got 8 shots out of it. It would get him looks enough to score his 15-25 points and some nights he might get hot and make contested shots.
But he wasnt just murdering teams with crazy buckets off the ball. He was more of an in the flow of the game scorer than a guy who just gives you the business. He was trouble on set plays at the end of the game because they would pull out something almost sure ot at least get the ball in his hands and he was clutch as hell.
But...he was never what id call unstoppable.
Walter Ray Allen
Game has always been smooth...but the young ray Allen...the Bucks and Sonics Ray Allen was one of the best overall players in the league...unfortunately he was always stuck in small markets and unlike today there was a huge surplus of SGs taking the lime light...
However I really couldn't be mad if someone picked Reggie...Reggie always went for the kill...and was deadly...he also went to war with the 90's Knicks and MJ and held his own..something I think Ray would've struggled with cause back then u needed a certain edge to play against those teams
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Reggie was more clutch, though that's not to say Ray wasn't. But Ray was the better player in every other aspect of the game. He was so much more than a three point shooter. Sure he could shoot... but he could create, attack the hoop, dunk in your face, pass, and defend. People really forget how versatile and complete of a player Ray was as a Buck.
Ray is fcuking clutch.
[QUOTE=D.J.]Reggie was more clutch, though that's not to say Ray wasn't. But Ray was the better player in every other aspect of the game. He was so much more than a three point shooter. Sure he could shoot... but he could create, attack the hoop, dunk in your face, [B]pass, and defend.[/B] People really forget how versatile and complete of a player Ray was as a Buck.[/QUOTE]
Ray wasn't that good or capable in those two aspects of the game but he was certainly better than Reggie at it.
I don't think people realize how stacked and good Reggie's Pacers were. I hate how everybody is giving Reggie all the credit for leading those Pacers teams to the playoffs and going deep in the playoffs occasionally and acting as if he did it all by himself. Reggie's teammates were very good and they were much better than the teammates Ray was playing before he joined the Celtics.
Dude, both of them are remembered for their 3-P shooting stroke. Now who is the all time leader of those two ? Ray. All is said.
Ray in Milwaukee and Seattle was clearly the better, more complete player. He could shoot at least as well as Reggie, probably better, imo. But he was a real threat creating his own shot off the dribble, and he was a good enough passer/playmaker to operate as a point guard at times, or as your primary ball handler. Reggie simply didn't have those things in his game. He was also much more athletic than Reggie.
Ray started playing more like Reggie in Boston when he was past his prime, and did it as well as Reggie did, except he was still a better finisher and ball handler.
Neither were good defenders, imo, but outside of defense, Ray was more of a complete player in Milwaukee and Seattle.
Nothing against Reggie either, I can give him credit for being such a good shooter, often raising his game in the playoffs and big moments, and it is nice to have a guy who will score 20+ playing off the ball so much. It worked really well when Indiana got to the finals because they had a 1 on 1 scorer to go with him(Jalen Rose), a true point guard(Mark Jackson) and a post scorer(Rik Smits). You can't have too many people who need the ball.
Reggie could light it up, he averaged 25 ppg on 51/41/87 shooting % in '90, and 20 ppg in '94 with percentages of 50/42/91.
And his extended playoff runs were impressive too. 26 ppg in 17 games to the ECF in '95, 24 ppg in 22 playoff games to the finals in '00, 23 ppg in 16 playoff games to the ECF in '94, and 20 ppg in 16 and 13 games respectively to the '98 and '99 ECF.
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Ray wasn't that good or capable in those two aspects of the game but he was certainly better than Reggie at it.
I don't think people realize how stacked and good Reggie's Pacers were. I hate how everybody is giving Reggie all the credit for leading those Pacers teams to the playoffs and going deep in the playoffs occasionally and acting as if he did it all by himself. Reggie's teammates were very good and they were much better than the teammates Ray was playing before he joined the Celtics.[/QUOTE]
Well, Ray's Bucks were pretty talented from '00-'02 when they had the big 3, plus another talented scorer in Tim Thomas coming off the bench, and they added Anthony Mason in '02, while Michael Redd was also becoming a scoring threat off the bench.
Reggie Miller was natural born killer. He was still killing it at old age. He was 34 years old when he led his team to finals. 24 ppg during playoffs including 24.3 ppg in finals.
He killed Ray Allen in 2000 playoffs in 5th game (back then it was 5 game series)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eOuUO0lif4[/url]
Reggie : 41 points (%60)
Allen: 18 points (%27)
Pacers : 3 Bucks : 2
Pleeeeeasssee.... for Ray Allens game/gamestyle to exist there had to be Reggie Miller and hence Reggie Miller has to come first, he is the ORIGINAL.. the best one....
Ray has said (and Rip Hamilton) multiple times that he patterned his game after Reggie, that he "stole" all Reggies moves especially of the ball movement, screen tricks, how to get open and so on... Reggie was by extremly far the best of the ball/screen abusing/catch n shoot player in basketball history, Michael Jordan has said that to... you will never see somebody as good as him in that department, he had so many tricks up his sleeve to get open, running around and around like a marathon runner, grabbing his own teammate who set the screen to lever himself around him at the opposite side, hesitating all over the court between the screens/players in and out, left, right, up, down, spin, flop, spin, frustrate you, using your own teammates as screens, exhaust you, spit at you, hit a J over and over, trashtalk and so on... it was freakin scientific, it was ART watching him work without the ball...
There is a reason Kobe said: "[I]Reggie is the hardest player i ever had to guard[/I]".. and that says alot considering he did guard Michael Jordan aswell..
For you who say Ray Allen was a more complete player, watch some of Reggies games when he was in his athletic prime from 1987-1992, you know, the fade Reggie... he was very quick, fast, deceptive, dunking on everybody, creating his own baskets over and over and was a better man to man defender than Ray Allen during that time aswell....
Reggie was also a MUCH better clutch player, Ray Allen is great in that department, but what Reggie did was matched ONLY by Michael Jordan & Larry Bird..........
Last but not least, when talking about shooting... Reggie was a better shooter because Reggie was a much more versatile shooter, he had a better shooting arsenal....... Ray Allen is more of a set shooter/standstill shooter, with that i mean he is not comfortable taking of balance shots, infact Ray Allen is a very bad of balance shooter (notice that next time you see him play during any time of his career).......... Ray Allen wants to go straight UP and shoulders/body faced towards the rim at all times when he shoots during any situation......... but Reggie? Reggie basically made his shots at that ridicilous percentage from any god damn range taking Kobe Bryant / Michael Jordan type of fadeaway/of balance shots.... Reggie made his shots however you wanted it, runners, floaters, hooks, left handed-right handed, skoops, you name it....
This is for the same exact reason Larry Bird was also a better shooter than Ray Allen.......
[QUOTE]
Pleeeeeasssee.... for Ray Allens game/gamestyle to exist there had to be Reggie Miller and hence [B]Reggie Miller has to come first, he is the ORIGINAL.. the best one[/B]....[/QUOTE]
Nope. Being the first one to do something doesn't mean you're the best one. That's a logical fallcy right there.
Seeing as your reasoning is based on a faulty premise right off the bat, the rest of your reasoning is equaly bad.
Try again kiddo.
[QUOTE=Punpun]Nope. Being the first one to do something doesn't mean you're the best one. That's a logical fallcy right there.
Seeing as your reasoning is based on a faulty premise right off the bat, the rest of your reasoning is equaly bad.
Try again kiddo.[/QUOTE]
Sure... but in Reggies case HE WAS THE BEST ONE........ at Shooting-Guard he was the best SHOOTER/OF THE BALL/SCREEN/CATCH-N-SHOOT player ever...
No you try again...................... "kiddo"... actually, you didnt even try... i didnt see any "reasoning" from you? Just a disagreement...
I criticized your reasoning son. If you didn't see any reasoning, that's because yours was faulty.
Harsh isn't it ?
(You will have to back up that claim son.)
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/8x7ad.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Punpun]I criticized your reasoning son. If you didn't see any reasoning, that's because yours was faulty.
Harsh isn't it ?
(You will have to back up that claim son.)[/QUOTE]
I have 400 games of Reggie Miller... what claim do you specifically want, tell me?
The first one you made in the post I'm answering you just answered.
Pauk......
1st. Ray Ray is good at hitting of ballance shots. Almost all his game winners were hit fading left or right. And he is very good at hitting of balance catch and shoot mid jumpers.
[URL="http://youtu.be/Ibv81PvZB9Y?t=2m24s"]Just one of many... 2 in a row actually[/URL]
2nd Ray Ray is waaaaaay better man to man defender then people say. Remember how well he defended Kobe? I do. He is very savvy defender. He doest buy fakes, and even without one ankle, as right now, manages to stay next to his defender.
3rd. Ray allen is crazy crazy clutch.
[B]
And please, please never write stupid shit like "infact Ray Allen is a very bad of balance shooter" . That is discrace to ray ray and yourself. [/B] What do you mean by "very bad"? Ben Wallace bad?
Like many others have said, Ray is/was the better all around player but Reggie was clutch, he was a leader, he was someone you trusted in situations. I also wanna stress that I feel Reggie Miller was a house hold name in the mid to late 90's. I think a lot of non basketball fans knew who he was and were familiar with the phrase "Miller Time" and not referring to beer. Ray Allen, I don't feel ever hit that point. Of course, this is not a popularity contest by any means but just putting that out there. If both were in their prime and it came down to it though, I go with Reggie.
reggie did it as the main gunner...ray does it as a 3rd fiddle with good cushion all his career
Ray
[QUOTE=bluechox2]reggie did it as the main gunner...ray does it as a 3rd fiddle with good cushion all his career[/QUOTE]
That's because Ray adjusted his game for the Celtics. He was The Man on the Sonics.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]That's because Ray adjusted his game for the Celtics. He was The Man on the Sonics.[/QUOTE]
He was the man on some pretty poor Sonics/Bucks teams though.
[QUOTE=Punpun]I criticized your reasoning son. If you didn't see any reasoning, that's because yours was faulty.
Harsh isn't it ?
(You will have to back up that claim son.)[/QUOTE]
well just saying "your reasoning was faulty so i don't have to goddamn rationalize my argument" is a bigger stupidity. anyone can just say that, puff up his chest, and feel good he made an argument. but lol.
Both great players and their stats are similar but I'd rather have Reggie. I dig the mental aspect of his game and he was going up against guys like Jordan as the main man. Both deadly shooters but to me Ray was a little streakier.