Was Scottie Pippen at least once robbed for Defensive Player of the Year?

My brain simply can NOT percieve the thought of such a viciously awesome defender (perhaps the greatest perimeter defender and most versatile defender ever) never winning Defensive Player of the Year...

Was it just because of competition maybe? Afterall Hakeem, Dikembe, Robinson, Jordan, Rodman and Payton were around....?

What are your thoughts on this?

He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA, Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.

[QUOTE=Punpun]He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA, Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.[/QUOTE]


6 rings later, I'm pretty sure Scottie is fine with it :rolleyes:

Unfortunately for Pippen he played in one of the strongest eras for dominant centers.

And no, Jordan didn't steal a DPOY from Pippen. Jordan won his in 1988, when Pippen was a rookie.

That's how good pippen was and how hard he got robbed.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Unfortunately for Pippen he played in one of the strongest eras for dominant centers.

And no, Jordan didn't steal a DPOY from Pippen. Jordan won his in 1988, when Pippen was a rookie.[/QUOTE]

Jordan didn't technically steal a DPOY from Pippen, but being a comparable defender as a teammate while also playing in the perimeter reduced Pippen's chances to showcase his defensive dominance better (you know, the pretty flawed argument of "he's not even the best ... in his own team"). Between '92 and '97, this probably worked vice-versa, as well.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Jordan didn't technically steal a DPOY from Pippen, but being a comparable defender as a teammate while also playing in the perimeter reduced Pippen's chances to showcase his defensive dominance better (you know, the pretty flawed argument of "he's not even the best ... in his own team"). Between '92 and '97, this probably worked vice-versa, as well.[/QUOTE]

I could argue that Pippen stole a second DPOY from Jordan.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Jordan didn't technically steal a DPOY from Pippen, but being a comparable defender as a teammate while also playing in the perimeter reduced Pippen's chances to showcase his defensive dominance better (you know, the pretty flawed argument of "he's not even the best ... in his own team"). Between '92 and '97, this probably worked vice-versa, as well.[/QUOTE]

Always very intelligent posts. :cheers:

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]I could argue that Pippen stole a second DPOY from Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Argue all you want. Won't make you right.

Considering competition, even Jordan shouldnt have won. It was even harder for Pippen, not only to outshine more impactfull defenders, but also MJ.

In this era he could have won, but then again Duncan has zero DPOY, Garnett only one, etc.

Yes, he was. It's a crime how he didn't win a DPOY.

Same with Duncan..

[QUOTE=pauk]My brain simply can NOT percieve the thought of such a viciously awesome defender (perhaps the greatest perimeter defender and most versatile defender ever) never winning Defensive Player of the Year...

Was it just because of competition maybe? Afterall Hakeem, Dikembe, Robinson, Jordan, Rodman and Payton were around....?

What are your thoughts on this?[/QUOTE]

[B][SIZE="3"]Pippen became only 2nd "perimeter" player to record 100 blks/200 stls in single season after Jordan.

[U]MJ did it TWICE in back-2-back seasons he went for 100/250+ stls to secure DPOY.[/U]

PIPPEN in '90s never did that again to secure DPOY title.

this goes to show how tough it was to WIN DPOY title by perimeter player.

If you go by the logic, the standard set by MJ as DPOY win was very high. Pippen could not match it. Even his 100/200 blk/stls season, he BARELY made it.

Not good enough to secure DPOY title.[/SIZE][/B]

I'd say no, especially not unless someone presents a specific year where there's a compelling case for "Pippen > everyone else".

It's partially a function of era and partially to do with the relative value of perimeter defenders versus big man (plus a little of the aforementioned MJ and Pip negating one another in voters minds).
It doesn't mean Pip wasn't one of the greatest wing defenders ever.

I look at DPOY like COY in that its not really a such a career-defining award. If I'm comparing Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Joe Dumars as defenders, the fact that Pippen and Dumars don't have any DPOYs while Jordan and Payton each have one does not cross my mind. I don't really think COY or DPOY are awards that people really care about that much or that voters put that much thought to like they do the MVP.

I thought it was funny that people were raving about Larry Bird having the greatest overall basketball career in history cause he's won COY and EOY. Did anyone really think he's ever been that special in either? Do people realize Jerry Sloan and Rick Adelman have never won COY and that Sam Presti and RC Buford have never won EOY?

At least with MVPs, the greatest of the greats that are consistently great every year for a long time at least win 1 MVP so it seems alot more meaningful. Awards like DPOY, COY, and EOY don't really go like that.

i think it was a crime but he wasnt deserving over mutumbo/hakeem/david/rodman or any of those elite defensive centers. the DPOY is and will always be a center/PF driven award

Tough to say. As others pointed out though he played in THE dominant center era. I mean he played when guys like prime Mutumbo, Mourning, Hakeem, D Rob, Shaq were in the game. That being said Pippen is the best perimeter of all time right behind Gary Payton.

He should have been the DPOY in 1995. They just gave it to Mutombo because he led the league in bpg.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Tough to say. As others pointed out though he played in THE dominant center era. I mean he played when guys like prime Mutumbo, Mourning, Hakeem, D Rob, Shaq were in the game. That being said Pippen is the best perimeter of all time right behind Gary Payton.[/QUOTE]

Pippen and Jordan were both greater defensively than Gary Payton.

I thought Pippen had a legit case in 1994 and especially in 1995 where I think he should have won it. Even though he was a SF he anchored his teams defensively with the impact of a center and he had to because his frontcourt was god-awful in '95. He was also #1 or #2 in steals. When it came to the overall package of one on one defense, help defense, steals, blocking shots, and taking charges he was second to none.

I think Payton winning DPOY in '96 was an even greater insult since he had nowhere near the impact of Pippen on that side of the floor.

[QUOTE=Owl]I'd say no, especially not unless someone presents a specific year where there's a compelling case for "Pippen > everyone else".

It's partially a function of era and partially to do with the relative value of perimeter defenders versus big man (plus a little of the aforementioned MJ and Pip negating one another in voters minds).
It doesn't mean Pip wasn't one of the greatest wing defenders ever.[/QUOTE]
Ill give a specific year. 1995. He was the best defender in the league. And shouldve won it over mutombo.

He led the league in steals, the bulls were second in team defense. Mutombos nuggets were like 14th. He had the highest defensive rating. Made allnba first team defense and waas the leading vote getter. And the bulls had a better record than the nuggets.

The only thing mutombo had over pippen is blocks. And pippen avg 1a game too.

[QUOTE=AngelEyes]Pippen and Jordan were both greater defensively than Gary Payton.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Payton is the best perimeter defender in NBA history in my opinion. Though Pippen and Jordan absolutely are NOT far behind.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]I disagree. Payton is the best perimeter defender in NBA history in my opinion. Though Pippen and Jordan absolutely are NOT far behind.[/QUOTE]

Pippen and Jordan had much more versatility than Gary Payton defensively and could also wreak more havoc. Payton was damn good but there's no way he's as good as those two. Payton also didn't have the physical talent that Pippen and Jordan had, which they utilized so brilliantly on the defensive end.

[QUOTE=AngelEyes]Pippen and Jordan had much more versatility than Gary Payton defensively and could also wreak more havoc. Payton was damn good but there's no way he's as good as those two. Payton also didn't have the physical talent that Pippen and Jordan had, which they utilized so brilliantly on the defensive end.[/QUOTE]

Payton made up for it with more tenacity and quicker hands than Pippen/Jordan on D. As I said they are all debatable but I have Payton at the top.

[B]9

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Payton made up for it with more tenacity and quicker hands than Pippen/Jordan on D. As I said they are all debatable but I have Payton at the top.

[B]9

[QUOTE=AngelEyes]He definitely didn't have quicker hands than Michael Jordan, and him being voted defensive player of the year hardly makes him superior to Pippen. I can't control how the writers voted 16 years ago and whichever way they voted means very little for me. Jordan's hands were every bit as quick as Payton's and his physical ability allowed him to do far more on the defensive end. Pippen's versatility on defense is only rivaled and perhaps surpassed by Rodman's peak years and Lebron James.[/QUOTE]

You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Eh, you're overvaluing the impact of Payton's first place finish. Payton won the award because he had a great reputation for defense and the Sonics were the best team in their conference. His dominance on defense is not the same as Jordan or Pippen. When I'm talking about these two, I'm valuing both versatility and impact, which is greater than Gary Payton. Either Pippen or Jordan could switch on to a 1,2 3 (in pippen's case a 4 as well) and take them out of the game.' Payton could disrupt a player's rhythm on defense but I don't see the same kind of dominance on defense and I don't think he should have won the award.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.[/QUOTE]

The idea of the media never picking point guards is misguided, the media primarily picks big men and does not pick guards. Guys like Alvin Robertson, Jordan and Sidney Moncrief winning it made it easier for someone like Gary Payton winning it. It doesn't mean his dominance just couldn't be overlooked, he had a good year like he usually did, it doesn't mean he should've won it because he probably shouldn't have. Pippen was the better defender on the better team and his impact was greater.

Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea.[B] Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen[/B].[/QUOTE]

The thing is... he wasn't. Pippen and Jordan would routinely lock down on a guy and take them out of the game, while still playing the passing lanes and leading to fastbreak points. Payton was a very good defender and one of the best defensive point guards but in no way does his defensive impact rival Pippen or Jordan.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson[/QUOTE]

Payton should be on the bottom of that list and no way, as good as he was, should Sidney Moncrief be higher than Jordan. Jordan could take over a game on defense in a way Sidney Moncrief just couldn't. Moncrief was a nuisance on defense but Jordan could eliminate your best scorer and create havoc throughout the game.

[QUOTE=AngelEyes]Payton should be on the bottom of that list and no way, as good as he was, should Sidney Moncrief be higher than Jordan. Jordan could take over a game on defense in a way Sidney Moncrief just couldn't. Moncrief was a nuisance on defense but Jordan could eliminate your best scorer and create havoc throughout the game.[/QUOTE]

I always thought Jordan/Moncrief were interchangable.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if you were watching the NBA back then but it helped that Payton and George Karl had big mouths and shamelessly campaigned for Payton to win the DPOY award. I found it ridiculous to pander to the media the way they did but it worked. That same year they also made a big deal to the media about Jason Kidd being a starter over Payton at the all-star game. It was ridiculous. Karl was such a whiner back then.

Then Karl Malone and the Jazz stepped it up a year later and campaigned for the MVP award which worked as well.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson[/QUOTE]

Dennis Rodman was every bit the perimeter defender that Gary Payton was, this from a guy who could efficiently guard power fowards. His teammate, Joe Dumars, would also belong on a list like this. Pippen and Jordan remain the best and most impactful, as pure perimeter defenders I don't think anyone is in their class.

Yes, Pippen should've won DPoY in 1995. That's his best case and the only year I'd give him the award.

As for the Payton debate, tell me if this makes sense or not.

[b]Payton said he had a better defensive season in 1995 than he did in 1996 which is the year he won the award.[/b] He said he gambled more than usual in 1996 which resulted in him leading the league in steals, got a few GW defensive plays like a steal on Jordan and he got more national coverage as well as campaigned for the award.

Payton in 1995 got 2 votes for DPoY. Payton in 1996 got 56 votes for DPoY.

Is this logical or not? How does he get only 2 votes in a year where he played better defense according to himself? Does it not show how much media values stuff like steals and how much national coverage can influence an award?

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]I always thought Jordan/Moncrief were interchangable.[/QUOTE]

They're not. Moncrief could stick to a guy like Payton, but he couldn't disrupt and entire offense and takeover a game like Jordan could on the defensive end.

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]I'm not sure if you were watching the NBA back then but it helped that Payton and George Karl had big mouths and shamelessly campaigned for Payton to win the DPOY award. I found it ridiculous to pander to the media the way they did but it worked. That same year they also made a big deal to the media about Jason Kidd being a starter over Payton at the all-star game. It was ridiculous. Karl was such a whiner back then.

Then Karl Malone and the Jazz stepped it up a year later and campaigned for the MVP award which worked as well.[/QUOTE]

The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Yes, Pippen should've won DPoY in 1995. That's his best case and the only year I'd give him the award.

As for the Payton debate, tell me if this makes sense or not.

[b]Payton said he had a better defensive season in 1995 than he did in 1996 which is the year he won the award.[/b] He said he gambled more than usual in 1996 which resulted in him leading the league in steals, got a few GW defensive plays like a steal on Jordan and he got more national coverage as well as campaigned for the award.

Payton in 1995 got 2 votes for DPoY. Payton in 1996 got 56 votes for DPoY.

Is this logical or not? How does he get only 2 votes in a year where he played better defense according to himself? Does it not show how much media values stuff like steals and how much national coverage can influence an award?[/QUOTE]

Players have said a lot of things that aren't accurate. Not saying you're wrong at all because you know quite a bit but I can't say how many times I've seen players say something like this and it's not accurate. Players all the time say crap like "I'm in the best shape of my life" when they clearly aren't etc.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).[/QUOTE]

I don't see any logical case for him when the two guys I place above him at all of his instincts and a hell of a lot more physical ability which they utilized very well on defense. With the way the game was called back then Pippen absolutely utilized it to his fullest. He was the most suffocating, versatile, impactful, etc. defender int he game. This was back when you could actually touch a player and handcheck him throughout a game and no one did this as well as Pippen, and Jordan was right there with Pippen. They were both heavier, taller, more more athletically gifted and had all the instincts of a Gary Payton or Joe Dumars.

Why would he say something that's working against his case to win and just showing the absurd criteria the writers use?

The most logical thing in that situation would be to say that was his best defensive season.

Here is the quote:
[QUOTE]
Payton said, overall, he had a better defensive season last season. This season, he conceded, the difference was leading the league in steals.

"I didn't come into the season looking to lead the league in steals," Payton said. "But I got off to a good start, and got the lead early. About two months into the year, I decided it was going to happen. I led the league in steals because I went for more steals."
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960507&slug=2327993[/url]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).[/QUOTE]

Payton was better at nothing on defense than Pippen and Jordan, was much smaller than either one, had a lot less physical ability, had less versatility and I'm expected to believe Payton was greater? It doesn't make any sense and is supported by nothing. The defense of Pippen and Jordan, along with Jordan's offensive dominance were the key components to the Bulls championship run. Whenever their shots weren't falling they could always rely on their defense because it would always be there.