1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic
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1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic
I would give Magic in '85 but the rest is correct and I think most people already know this though, at least the people that know anything about the two.
That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.[/QUOTE]
That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years Bird was starting to have back issues. Hmmm.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]1980 - [b]Magic[/b]
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic[/QUOTE]
Fixed. FMVP > ROY
[QUOTE=clipps]Fixed. FMVP > ROY[/QUOTE]
Kareem was the REAL FMVP that year.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years Bird was starting to have back issues. Hmmm.[/QUOTE]
That's a stretch homie. Magic beat Bird in the NCAA Championship in 1979, he was finals MVP in 1980 and 1982 and he beat Bird in the NBA finals in 1985. Bird's back was fine during all of these things. I'm not shitting on Larry Bird becasue I think the dude was a God. I just don't see what your list is supposed to be telling people.
[QUOTE=clipps]Fixed. FMVP > ROY[/QUOTE]
Bird made a 29 win team a 61 win team... And was voted the better regular season player throughout the year. Was All NBA first team...
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Kareem was the REAL FMVP that year.[/QUOTE]
Not to the people that had votes that counted. The REAL FMVP is the guy who has the trophy in his case. Anybody else is a woulda been, coulda been, shoulda been MVP and that dont count for much in the real world.
Again I'm not shitting on Kareem because he's my second favorite player ever. I'm just stating that fact that Magic got the award hence he is the REAL FMVP.
[QUOTE=plowking]Bird made a 29 win team a 61 win team... And was voted the better regular season player throughout the year. Was All NBA first team...[/QUOTE]
The Lakers and their fans don't give a shit about the regular season.
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]That's a stretch homie. [B]Magic beat Bird in the NCAA Championship in 1979, he was finals MVP in 1980 and 1982 and he beat Bird in the NBA finals in 1985.[/B] Bird's back was fine during all of these things. I'm not shitting on Larry Bird becasue I think the dude was a God. I just don't see what your list is supposed to be telling people.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't that just mean that Magic had the better team?:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]The Lakers and their fans don't give a shit about the regular season.[/QUOTE]
That's great, the rest of the league does when it comes to ranking players. Winning championships is not the end all and be all.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Doesn't that just mean that Magic had the better team?:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
And how the player's team did isn't one of the most important factors in deciding who is the regular season MVP?
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]And how the player's team did isn't one of the most important factors in deciding who is the regular season MVP?[/QUOTE]
Yes it is. Which is why Kareem won the MVP in 1980.
[QUOTE=plowking]That's great, the rest of the league does when it comes to ranking players. Winning championships is not the end all and be all.[/QUOTE]
The rest of the league doesn't give a shit about ranking players homie. That honor is reserved for armchair basketball analysts. I think that 99.9% of the players and teams in the league do think winning the championship is the be all and end all.
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]The rest of the league doesn't give a shit about ranking players homie. That honor is reserved for armchair basketball analysts. I think that 99.9% of the players and teams in the league do think winning the championship is the be all and end all.[/QUOTE]
And yet while Kobe was dominating in 05-06 and 06-07, not winning championships, NBA players were still ranking him the best in the league. Funny that.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Doesn't that just mean that Magic had the better team?:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
It does, clearly. Bird took a few guys off a pick up truck to the NCAA finals, unbeaten IIRC.
son of a bitch, we all knew these vs threads would eventually give birth to Magic v Bird
I don't have time to do this now (not that anybody cares), but I'm looking forward to reading responses tomorrow before putting my list together
Having the better team doesn't win you the FMVP. Yes, you and your team have to get there. Once you do get there it's the people that perform that are given the FMVP. FMVP is not a team award. Magic performed and he was declared the MVP.
He was also voted the 1979 NCAA Tournament's "Most Outstanding Player" for those of you scoring at home.
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]Having the better team doesn't win you the FMVP. Yes, you and your team have to get there. Once you do get there it's the people that perform that are given the FMVP. FMVP is not a team award. Magic performed and he was declared the MVP.
He was also voted the 1979 NCAA Tournament's "Most Outstanding Player" for those of you scoring at home.[/QUOTE]
You need a great team to get to the finals to become the finals MVP. A relatively small sample vs a whole season? You can't be serious. This is akin to arguing that Pierce was actually the best player in the year he won his finals MVP.
Magic got the final 4 award because his team won. His team was far better than Larry's. Larry owned the NCAA as a whole. It isn't close. Magic was great, but Larry was a phenom.
[QUOTE=LeBird]You need a great team to get to the finals to become the finals MVP. A relatively small sample vs a whole season? You can't be serious. This is akin to arguing that Pierce was actually the best player in the year he won his finals MVP.
Magic got the final 4 award because his team won. His team was far better than Larry's. Larry owned the NCAA as a whole. It isn't close. Magic was great, but Larry was a phenom.[/QUOTE]
Bird played like shit in the final and he admits this. So he owned the NCAA as a whole. Except Magic.
1988- Bird. If Jordan didn't have such a strong season Larry would have again been MVP otherwise I agree with the OP.
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]Bird played like shit in the final and he admits this. So he owned the NCAA as a whole. Except Magic.[/QUOTE]
Players have off days and Bird is no different. It's strange since Bird is up there with the most clutch players of all time - in any sport IMO - but that was a game where he wasn't at his best.
Regardless, the comparison is flawed. Bird had to deal with Magic's much superior team and Magic had to deal with a team that almost entirely depended on Bird. Just look at their college basketball numbers: it. is. not. even. close.
I have to reiterate - since I seem to be a bigger Bird fan, especially here - that I think Magic was, well, simply Magical. He is one of the GOAT. But in the beginning of his career Bird was simply just that much better and it showed.
As an aside, I am always amazed why basketball fans put so much credence in certain opinions with such small samples to back it up.
[QUOTE]Players have off days and Bird is no different. It's strange since Bird is up there with the most clutch players of all time - in any sport IMO - but that was a game where he wasn't at his best.
[B]Regardless, the comparison is flawed. Bird had to deal with Magic's much superior team and Magic had to deal with a team that almost entirely depended on Bird.[/B] Just look at their college basketball numbers: it. is. not. even. close.
I have to reiterate - since I seem to be a bigger Bird fan, especially here - that I think Magic was, well, simply Magical. He is one of the GOAT. But in the beginning of his career Bird was simply just that much better and it showed.
As an aside, I am always amazed why basketball fans put so much credence in certain opinions with such small samples to back it up.[/QUOTE]
A team that "almost entirely depended on Bird" would not have as a Finals' MVP (1981) another player but Bird. OK, you may argue that the voting was flawed, but a team that depended on Bird that much would not easily win Finals' games when Bird would only score 8 and 12 points respectively, regardless of the rest of his game, unless [B]maybe [/B]he played some Bill Russell level defense (than again, we all know Russell himself had plenty of help).
Also, a team that dependent on Bird would not include multiple other All-Stars (not even multiple All-Stars [B]including Bird[/B], but multiple All-Stars [B]except [/B]Bird), including the 1981 ASG MVP, it would not have a guy producing close to 19/10/3 blocks/54.5% FG in just 28.0 mpg (for PER lovers, that's 25.2, compared to Bird's 19.9), it would not use Kevin McHale as a 6th man, it would not have 8 of its players play for 80-82 games, etc.
Enough with this "Celtics were not deep" myth.
Something more: The OP's comparison is flawed, not only because it doesn't indicate who had the better season (for example, Magic had easily the better 1982 season), but also because it doesn't obviously take into account the 3+ years of difference between Magic and Bird and because it doesn't mention the year by year [B]margin [/B]between the 2 players. Therefore, declaring Bird the "winner" because the OP gives him a 7-5 lead isn't accurate to say the least.
So we'll bring up Bird's back, but we won't bring up Magic's knee in 1981? Seems fair.
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]So we'll bring up Bird's back, but we won't bring up Magic's knee in 1981? Seems fair.[/QUOTE]
MAgic made that up, just like he made up his HIV excuse because he knew Jordan was going to slap him silly every year since 1991.
@Psileas
You've gone on a rant without realizing I am talking about their NCAA sides. As far as Celtics v Lakers go; they were both talent filled teams although Lakers were probably better for most of the time both played.
In Bird's first year there is no debate that he had a much weaker side.
1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Tie ***
1988 - Magic or Tie
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic
Remember, the Celtics in 1987 NBA Finals had horrible bench.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Kareem was the REAL FMVP that year.[/QUOTE]
After originally voting 4-3 for Kareem Abdul Jabbar as NBA Finals MVP, one writer was apparently persuaded by CBS to change his vote to Magic Johnson. The vote was 4-3 in Magic's favor, although it was announced on TV that the vote was unanimous. It was not. And actually, Kareem WAS the true MVP of that Finals series.
Magic did lead the Lakers to victory in the closeout game 6, but Kareem was easily more valuable in the other 3 games the Lakers won.
[QUOTE]
Not to the people that had votes that counted. The REAL FMVP is the guy who has the trophy in his case. Anybody else is a woulda been, coulda been, shoulda been MVP and that dont count for much in the real world.
[/QUOTE]
True. However Kareem was the biggest reason why the Lakers won in 1980. It was kind of an awkward situation with him missing the last game and Magic having a monster closeout game, but he was still more important than Magic overall in the series.
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]I would give Magic in '85 but the rest is correct and I think most people already know this though, at least the people that know anything about the two.[/QUOTE]
Bird was the better player in 1985 and it really wasn't close.
Bird slipped a bit in the finals that year with a thumb injury, but was otherwise at the top of his game for the majority of the 1985 season.
I remember that season well, and Bird was the consensus pick as the best player in the league. Much like what we're seeing with Lebron right now, he was at his peak and nobody else was really in the conversation.
1985 stats: PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
Bird: 28.7 10.5 6.6 1.61 1.23 .522 .427 .882
Magic: 18.3 6.2 12.6 1.5 0.3 .561 .189 .843
[QUOTE=LeBird]Players have off days and Bird is no different. It's strange since Bird is up there with the most clutch players of all time - in any sport IMO - but that was a game where he wasn't at his best.
Regardless, the comparison is flawed. Bird had to deal with Magic's much superior team and Magic had to deal with a team that almost entirely depended on Bird. Just look at their college basketball numbers: it. is. not. even. close.
I have to reiterate - since I seem to be a bigger Bird fan, especially here - that I think Magic was, well, simply Magical. He is one of the GOAT. But in the beginning of his career Bird was simply just that much better and it showed.
As an aside, I am always amazed why basketball fans put so much credence in certain opinions with such small samples to back it up.[/QUOTE]
It was also much easier for the Spartans to surround and bother Bird, which they did during the most of game, than for the Sycamores to do the same to Magic because of Michigan State's depth advantage.
[QUOTE=clipps]Fixed. FMVP > ROY[/QUOTE]
I disagree when you're talking about who had the better [I]year[/I].
[QUOTE=nycelt84]1988- Bird. If Jordan didn't have such a strong season Larry would have again been MVP otherwise I agree with the OP.[/QUOTE]
It's really close.
Bird had his best statistical year, offensively speaking, and as you said, came in second in MVP voting.
But in fairness, given Magic's great post-season run, I'm inclined to give him the nod for having the better season.
Magic averaged a rounded up triple double in 1982 and won Finals MVP. I would put that ahead of Bird's 82 season.
[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]Bird played like shit in the final and he admits this. So he owned the NCAA as a whole. Except Magic.[/QUOTE]
That's only one game, and as I noted, Michigan State had the luxury of paying way more attention to Bird than Indiana State could give to Magic.
Not taking anything away from Magic here, as he had a great game and deserved the accolades that came along with it, but Bird was the more dominant player throughout the rest of the season and tournament. Just watch the DePaul game.
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Magic averaged a rounded up triple double in 1982 and won Finals MVP. I would put that ahead of Bird's 82 season.[/QUOTE]
Again, I agree this is another close season between the two. Those numbers from Magic are hard to argue with. This was a great comeback season for him, too.
Too bad the '81-'82 season couldn't have been a Celtics/Lakers final. Archibald's knee injury in the ECF against Philly crippled Boston's chance to defend its title.
I would've been really interesting to see Magic and Bird meet in the finals this early in their careers; the outcome would've also had a direct impact on this debate.
1980 - tie
1981 - bird
1982 - magic
1983 - bird
1984 - bird
1985 - bird
1986 - bird
1987-1991 - magic
magic's 1982 season has to be one of the most overlooked ever. he went 18.5/9.5/9.5, led the league in steals with 2.7 and was finals mvp. imagine if he didn't have to share the ball with 3 other guys who averaged close to or over 20ppg a game.....magic was 4th on the lakers that year in shot attempts per game
[QUOTE=Champ]Bird was the better player in 1985 and it really wasn't close.
Bird slipped a bit in the finals that year with a thumb injury, but was otherwise at the top of his game for the majority of the 1985 season.
I remember that season well, and Bird was the consensus pick as the best player in the league. Much like what we're seeing with Lebron right now, he was at his peak and nobody else was really in the conversation.[/QUOTE]
Are we comparing their seasons or how good they were? I give Magic the edge because he played better overall in the post-season specifically in that Finals.
Plus, Bird got a thumb injury but he suffered that injury on his own since he got into a bar fight. It's not like he just happened to have hurt it or something. It was his own fault he got that thumb injury in the first place. It's not an excuse for Bird, if anything that is a black mark for Bird.
I would consider giving Magic in '82 as well.
[QUOTE=Champ]That's only one game, and as I noted, Michigan State had the luxury of paying way more attention to Bird than Indiana State could give to Magic.
Not taking anything away from Magic here, as he had a great game and deserved the accolades that came along with it, but Bird was the more dominant player throughout the rest of the season and tournament. Just watch the DePaul game.[/QUOTE]
Excuses. That was only one game but it just happened to be the most important game of their college careers and a game in which they competed directly with one another. This is a results oriented world we live in and all excuses in the world cant take away these simple facts. Bird competed against Magic in the final, he didn't play well, and he lost. Period.