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Everyone portrays Ray Allen as this super human good guy when at the end of the day he is like everyone else - he has an ego and wants to feel loved :
[URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/news/olympics--doc-rivers-takes-blame-for-ray-allen-leaving-celtics-for-heat-.html"]http://sports.yahoo.com/news/olympics--doc-rivers-takes-blame-for-ray-allen-leaving-celtics-for-heat-.html[/URL]
[QUOTE]"People can use all the Rondo stuff
Losing Ray = gaining Lee. Win.
I wonder what Doc's story will be when Allen is dropping threes on his team's ass in the playoffs
So Ray was jealous that Rondo was more important to the Cetlics than him?
Rondo is the best player on the Celtics. If any Celtic didn't understand how Rondo thrives, they are delusional.
Ah well screw the Celtics. Happy for Ray that he got out.
Rather have Rondo than Allen
I recall when ol' Ray threw a tantrum when David West didnt join the Celtics, and Ray said somethin about 'I thought that bloke was a cerebral thinker like me' or somethin and took it all personal. Now hes crying about Rondo's role.
Chap seems insecure as the dickens, no?
Ray has always had this little streak to him. Never been a fan. Guy gets this rep for being such a great worker. Too bad he never worked on creating a handle or getting to the rim. He had the talent to be a more impactful player. But, guy just sat back taking pot shots at other players because of his short comings. It is arguable that Rondo is better than Ray Allen has ever been in his entire career.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Ray has always had this little streak to him. Never been a fan. Guy gets this rep for being such a great worker. Too bad he never worked on creating a handle or getting to the rim. He had the talent to be a more impactful player. But, guy just sat back taking pot shots at other players because of his short comings. It is arguable that Rondo is better than Ray Allen has ever been in his entire career.[/QUOTE]
Ray Allen's handle is just fine. When he was on the Bucks and Sonics he was able to get to the rim too. On the Celtics, he was just a shooter. His defense was always below what he could've been. Not that it's bad, but he could've been a lock down defender to go with the complete offense.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Losing Ray = gaining Lee. Win.[/QUOTE]
Have you seen Lee play? Like, not that single highlight? I haven't. Hope you know what you talking about...
All great players have ego. I wish Allen could handle his reduced role better internally but to his credit he never let it get public and it didn't appear to hurt the team.
[QUOTE=wang4three[B]]Ray Allen's handle is just fine. When he was on the Bucks and Sonics he was able to get to the rim too.[/B] On the Celtics, he was just a shooter. His defense was always below what he could've been. Not that it's bad, but he could've been a lock down defender to go with the complete offense.[/QUOTE]
we will have to disagree on the bolded. Ray did not have a good handle for a shooting guard. He lacked creativity off the bounce and couldn't consistently break his man down off the dribble. He got to the rim occasionally but not as much as someone of his talent level should. For as much as he worked on his jumper, he didn't work on his handle or post game. These things didn't improve over the years.
[QUOTE=wang4three]Ray Allen's handle is just fine. When he was on the Bucks and Sonics he was able to get to the rim too. On the Celtics, he was just a shooter. His defense was always below what he could've been. Not that it's bad, but he could've been a lock down defender to go with the complete offense.[/QUOTE]
You completely disregarding Allen doing job on Bryant all those times. He was a great defender, and that impact was dealt. I mean... What exactly are you implying? That he wasn't as good defender as he could due to poor dedication, or that on Celtics he didn't defend up to his abilities?? Or something else...??
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Losing Ray = gaining Lee. Win.[/QUOTE]
As a Net fan, I think you're misjudging Courtney Lee. I'd take a mid-30s Ray over Courtney. There's a reason why he's on his 4th team in 5 years.
He's a nice player, but you can't rely on him on offense, and his above average defense is at times negated by his propensity to take god awful shots.
[QUOTE=kNIOKAS]You completely disregarding Allen doing job on Bryant all those times. He was a great defender, and that impact was dealt. I mean... What exactly are you implying? That he wasn't as good defender as he could due to poor dedication, or that on Celtics he didn't defend up to his abilities?? Or something else...??[/QUOTE]
I am not disregarding anything. Ray was a good defender, but he wasn't what he could've been. He's got great foot speed and instincts, but he was never an elite defender. I don't I'm implying as much as I'm directly saying: Ray wasn't as a great as a defender as he could've been. He's not a liability on defense, but he wasn't a tremendous asset either. He could've been an All-Defense 1st teamer in my opinion.
I love Ray, but I'm just saying like it is.
I think the move was beneficial to both squads. Boston was able to find replacements for Ray. Miami got the best long range shooter of all time.
The only thing that gets me is the last press Boston put on for Ray. Just seemed like your ex is walking out of the door into the arms of your rival and you already have other women coming in and you start asking her to stay :lol not that bad but still
Does this make sense? Ray knows his role on Boston is not going to differ from his future role in Miami.
I think its just more about ray putting himself in a better position to win a ring.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Losing Ray = gaining Lee. Win.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Lee + Terry + Bradley (when he returns) >>>> old Ray Allen with ankle and attitude issues.
I like how Doc doesn't mention the agreed apon trade to Memphis, which is by all means the primary reason Ray Allen is a Heatle.
They phased him out, he tested free agency and sought out the best oppritunity for him and his family, that being Miami. That's all there is to it, really.
Celtics loss is the Heat's gain.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Ray has always had this little streak to him. Never been a fan. Guy gets this rep for being such a great worker. Too bad he never worked on creating a handle or getting to the rim. He had the talent to be a more impactful player. But, guy just sat back taking pot shots at other players because of his short comings.[B] It is arguable that Rondo is better than Ray Allen has ever been in his entire career.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Just no...
and ray in his bucks and sonics days had plenty of handle... As a sonics fan I can tell you that in his first full yr here he actually ran point for us the majority of the time...dude could handle and could score with the best of them
I love rondo but call me when rondo is able to be a franchise player for a decade and that can take a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs and 50 wins (seattle 05) and not have 3 hall of famers to help him
we'll see how rondo does then
:[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Ray has always had this little streak to him. Never been a fan. Guy gets this rep for being such a great worker. Too bad he never worked on creating a handle or getting to the rim. He had the talent to be a more impactful player. But, guy just sat back taking pot shots at other players because of his short comings. It is arguable that Rondo is better than Ray Allen has ever been in his entire career.[/QUOTE]
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
Almost sounds like Ray wasn't playing team ball. It was absolutely the right thing for Rondo to lead the team. This team was being told they were too old and they were 1 game away from the finals (that may have been a different out come had they been healthy). Oh well Boston fans, you lost him but you gained Jason Terry so, you won.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Losing Ray = gaining Lee. Win.[/QUOTE]
I've seen Celtics fans saying this about every free agent shooting guard they've been linked to.
I know Ray's older, but he still scares me at the end of games as much as anyone. I'll take what he's proven over what Lee and Young promise.
[QUOTE=Boston C's][/B]
Just no...
and ray in his bucks and sonics days had plenty of handle... As a sonics fan I can tell you that in his first full yr here he actually ran point for us the majority of the time...dude could handle and could score with the best of them
I love rondo but call me when rondo is able to be a [B]franchise player[/B] for a decade and that can take a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs and 50 wins (seattle 05) and not have 3 hall of famers to help him
we'll see how rondo does then[/QUOTE]
Ray Allen is as much of a franchise player as Melo is...you aren't winning anything with them as #1.
Ray Allen used to penetrate way more before he got sort of a reduced roll in the Celtics.
Remember the basics of basketball, if your a good shooter then you can penetrate with ease with a fake.
And we all agree that Ray Allen is one hell of a good shooter (still).
The Celtics ended up getting Courtney Lee and Jason Terry for Ray Allen so everything turned out alright for the Celtics.
Ray really isn't as nice or classy of a guy that everyone thinks he is either.
Ray Allen was never a good defender by the way. He was just average or maybe above average on that end but nothing more than that. I expect his defense to be even worse though since he won't have KG protect him in the interior and make up his mistakes.
[QUOTE=kNIOKAS]You completely disregarding Allen doing job on Bryant all those times. He was a great defender, and that impact was dealt. I mean... What exactly are you implying? That he wasn't as good defender as he could due to poor dedication, or that on Celtics he didn't defend up to his abilities?? Or something else...??[/QUOTE]
Maybe it is just me but I thought when Ray was guarding Kobe in the 2008 Finals, Kobe got whatever he wanted. It was Posey and Pierce that gave him a much tougher time than Ray.
[QUOTE=PJR][B]I like how Doc doesn't mention the agreed apon trade to Memphis, which is by all means the primary reason Ray Allen is a Heatle. [/B]
They phased him out, he tested free agency and sought out the best oppritunity for him and his family, that being Miami. That's all there is to it, really.[/QUOTE]
Pierce was also been in a discussion of being traded to other team and yet we haven't heard any single word from him about it or any complaints coming from him.
If there's someone who has the right to act the way Ray did (If that is the true reason), it's Pierce.
[QUOTE=dbugz]If there's someone who has the right to act the way Ray did (If that is the true reason), it's Pierce.[/QUOTE]
No doubt. You could tell like 2 seasons ago Pierce had trouble delegating to Rondo, but eventually it smoothed itself out.
Ray is seeming more like a baby with every article coming out about this.
Doc made a really interesting point though, about how it's easier to change teams for a smaller role than to have it taken away from you. It's a weird pride thing.
Come on though, Lee + Terry > Ray
[quote=YahooSports]Rivers told Yahoo! Sports that his decisions to relegate Allen to a sixth-man role and give point guard Rajon Rondo complete freedom with the ball and leadership were ultimately what helped lead Allen to leave Boston.[/quote]
This seems more like an indirect shot at Rondo
Paul Pierce has never been in a agreed in principle trade, so there's no reason to bring his name up in this scenario. :confusedshrug:
And another thing, who is really sounding like the pouting crybaby in all this? Sounds like Doc Rivers to me.
Ray hasn't had anything negative to say about Rondo or any other Celtic since he signed w/ the Heat. You gotta love Doc's douchey passive aggressive way of throwing Ray under a bus there. Very slick. :applause:
[QUOTE=PJR]And another thing, who is really sounding like the pouting crybaby in all this? Sounds like Doc Rivers to me.
Ray hasn't had anything negative to say about Rondo or any other Celtic since he signed w/ the Heat. You gotta love Doc's douchey passive aggressive way of throwing Ray under a bus there. Very slick. :applause:[/QUOTE]
Completely agree. And as usual the fans fall for the bait and bash the person who hasn't done a single thing wrong.
At the end of the day Ray played out his contract and had the right to make whatever decision he chose. Not sure whats being accomplished by trying to find a "bad guy" in all this.
[QUOTE=wang4three]I am not disregarding anything. Ray was a good defender, but he wasn't what he could've been. [B]He's got great foot speed and instincts[/B], but he was never an elite defender. I don't I'm implying as much as I'm directly saying: Ray wasn't as a great as a defender as he could've been. He's not a liability on defense, but he wasn't a tremendous asset either. He could've been an All-Defense 1st teamer in my opinion.
I love Ray, but I'm just saying like it is.[/QUOTE]
I agree about the foot speed, but not the instincts. Ray was a good one on one defender for the Celtics and underrated besides elsewhere, but one on one defense is where natural instincts come into play the least. They come into play the most on help/team defense and that is where Ray makes little to no impact because he doesn't have as high as basketball IQ on the defensive end as he does on the offensive end and mostly settles for just staying with his man and not getting into off the ball defense. As far as the Celtics go it wasn't an issue as Garnett, Pierce, and Rondo pretty much had the team/help defense down pat especially with Garnett as an anchor, but Ray on his own man was a good one on one defensive player. As you said he had good foot speed, he rarely falls for fakes, and he recovers well so he almost always gets a hand in opposing players face. He always guarded Kobe well in the the two finals because Kobe was happy to settle for jumpers instead of drive and Ray managed to always get a hand in his face. Now that Ray is getting up there, he will have trouble staying in front of a quick guard who is good off the dribble though.
The main reason as to why Ray isn't much known as a defensive player at all till the Celtics is that the Bucks and Sonics were primarily offensive teams. In 2001 they were 1 in offense, but they were in the 23rd in defense and in the 20s every single year Ray was there. Defense was just not part of the culture in Milwaukee. In 2005 when the Sonics made the playoffs and to the 2nd round they were 2nd in offense and 27th in defense. Basically every single season on the Bucks or Sonics whether they made it to the playoffs or not is the same story. Top of the league in offense, bottom of the league in defense. They just did NOT have the personnel to be good defensive teams and a SG was not going to change that. I remember watching those teams play, especially the Sonics and the had the Sonics had no defensive big men at all and Rashard Lewis was a terrible defensive player especially...they basically had nothing. Ray was never actually on all defensive team till he came to the Celtics but either way he would NEVER have been first team all defensive team and I say that with him being my favorite player, but seeing how many undeserved Kobe has I'm not sure that means anything anyway.
Can we start poking at Celtic fans whom claimed the rift between Ray and Rondo was fabricated by the media, citing "How can it be true, Rondo invited him to dinner during the Holidays!"
[QUOTE=PJR]Ray hasn't had anything negative to say about Rondo or any other Celtic since he signed w/ the Heat.[/QUOTE]
Uh-huh, because everything that he's ever said or thought has been in a press conference :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=PJR]Paul Pierce has never been in a agreed in principle trade, so there's no reason to bring his name up in this scenario. :confusedshrug:
And another thing, who is really sounding like the pouting crybaby in all this? Sounds like Doc Rivers to me.
Ray hasn't had anything negative to say about Rondo or any other Celtic since he signed w/ the Heat. You gotta love Doc's douchey passive aggressive way of throwing Ray under a bus there. Very slick. :applause:[/QUOTE]
So Doc Rivers deflecting the "blame" from Rondo, and instead owning that portion of the blame by stating it was he that wanted and told Rondo to have more freedom with the basketball, is being a pouting crybaby?
Anyway, so, how exactly does Ray think he'll be "more involved in the offense" in Miami? Instead of having to deal with your point guard, who is, by design, [I]suppose[/I] to have the ball in his hands dictating the offense, he'll now have to deal with Bron, then Wade, then Chalmers as the primary, secondary, ect ball-handlers.
Where exactly is the improvement in utilization?
I don't understand why Ray was complaining about Rondo having the ball the majority of the time. It puts less pressure on Ray and Rondo is an excellent passer. I'd rather have Rondo with the ball than Ray because then Rondo would not be the one standing still and hardly contributing. Ray can contribute w/ or w/o the ball.
I do understand Ray's decision though and don't blame him for going to Miami. He can get wide open shots and can probably have more attempts than at Boston.
[QUOTE=lilbeastnani]Yup. Lee + Terry + Bradley (when he returns) >>>> old Ray Allen with ankle and attitude issues.[/QUOTE]
I hope so because you're comparing three players combined to one old aging player.
[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]So Doc Rivers deflecting the "blame" from Rondo, and instead owning that portion of the blame by stating it was he that wanted and told Rondo to have more freedom with the basketball, is being a pouting crybaby?
Anyway, so, how exactly does Ray think he'll be "more involved in the offense" in Miami? Instead of having to deal with your point guard, who is, by design, [I]suppose[/I] to have the ball in his hands dictating the offense, he'll now have to deal with Bron, then Wade, then Chalmers as the primary, secondary, ect ball-handlers.
Where exactly is the improvement in utilization?[/QUOTE]
The Heat will probably play Chalmers less and play Allen, Wade, and Lebron together. All three have experience running a team especially Lebron and Wade, so the Heat don't need Chalmers out there if they actually want their best players on the court. It's not like Allen just went to a team and is playing with Carmelo and Monta Ellis.
I feel like they are beating the dead horse here.