Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

The consensus Top 10 in ISH in no order is usually:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

So, let us discuss our Top 11-20 lists. Here are some of the criteria we should consider.

-Peak Play
-Longetivity
-Over all Impact (Including making team mates better)
-Dominance (Including NBA Accolades)
-Playoffs Success (Not necessarily a Ring)

Here is my List:

[B]11. Oscar Robertson:[/B] Still the only player in history to average a triple-double in a season, he averaged 26.5 PPG, 9.5 APG and 7.5 RPG. He won 1 MVP and was a 12x All-Star.

[B]12. Jerry West:[/B] He won 1 Championship but made the NBA Finals ten times. He made 13 All-Stars games and averaged 27 PPG, 6.7 APG.

[B]13. Lebron James:[/B] He won 1x NBA Championship, 3x MVP and an 8x All-Star.

[B]14. Moses Malone:[/B] In 20 years he won 3 MVPs, 11 All-Stars and a NBA championship. He averaged 20.6 PPG and 12.2 RPG.

[B]15. Bob Cousy: [/B] He was a 6x NBA Champion, 13-time All-Star and 1x MVP.
[B]
16. John Havlicek:[/B] He was a 8x NBA Champion, 13x All-Star and made 26k+ career points.
[B]
17. Isiah Thomas:[/B] He was a 2x NBA Champion, 12x All-Star and averaged 19.2 PPG and 9.3 assists for his career.
[B]
18. Julius Erving:[/B] He won 1 NBA Championship, 1 MVP and was an 11x All-Star while averaging 22 PPG during his career.
[B]
19. David Robinson:[/B] He won 2x NBA Championships, 1xMVP, 10x All-stars and 1x DPOY.

[B]20. Kevin Garnett:[/B] 1x NBA Champion, 1x MVP, 14x All-Star, 1x DPOY and he led the NBA in rebounds for 4 seasons. He also made it to 12 All NBA defensive Teams.

No order:

LeBron James
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Karl Malone
George Mikan
Dirk Nowtizki
Julius Erving

Including what they did in their era. I only feel a bit uncomfortable with my Mikan ranking, but I feel he did a lot too for his era and changed the game.

did this quickly, let me know if there are any glaring omissions

11 Robertson
12 West
13 LeBron
14 Moses
15 Erving
16 Isiah
17 Havlicek
18 Garnett
19 Wade
20 Dirk
21 Baylor
22 Pippen
23 Robinson
24 Rodman
25 Barkley
26 Drexler
27 Pettit
28 Karl Malone
29 Cousy
30 Stockton

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)

Just saying that Wade is not there yet, but he is in the Top 25 guaranteed. Another Finals MVP and he jumps in the Top 20 definitely.

[QUOTE=EnoughSaid]Just saying that Wade is not there yet, but he is in the Top 25 guaranteed. Another Finals MVP and he jumps in the Top 20 definitely.[/QUOTE]

another FMVP and he's top 15

11. LeBron James
12. Julius Erving
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Moses Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Karl Malone
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley

I'm stuck in the last three with Dirk, Robinson, and Barkley. I think Robinson is above Barkley but I'm not sure about Dirk and Barkley. I think I might move Robinson above Dirk.

[QUOTE=fpliii]another FMVP and he's top 15[/QUOTE]

Especially if he puts up another 25/5/5 season. Dude is going to jump to that 3rd best shooting guard spot. :bowdown:

[QUOTE=EnoughSaid]Especially if he puts up another 25/5/5 season. Dude is going to jump to that 3rd best shooting guard spot. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

he could be there already...it depends on if you classify West as a PG or SG

typically he's placed at the 2, but enough people have him at the point that we can put him in the discussion now :rockon:

two more Finals MVPs, and, well...not gonna get into that because you know in which direction this thread would head :pimp:

I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.

[QUOTE]Dude is going to jump to that 3rd best shooting guard spot.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I don't see it... but more power to them if Wade can keep it up for a couple of years.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.[/QUOTE]

haven't put much thought into it...11-15, 16-20, 21-30 are the three tiers of this list, ordering within them is relatively arbitrary

EDIT: I think Pippen, Admiral, Barkley are all close to each other, though; as for Zeke, he established himself as a super-elite passing PG, as well as a great first option on a championship team...if he doesn't go down in 88, even with Worthy going nuts, he has another Finals MVP and the Bad Boys have a threepeat

[QUOTE=fpliii]haven't put much thought into it...11-15, 16-20, 21-30 are the three tiers of this list, ordering within them is relatively arbitrary[/QUOTE]

Fair enough.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Fair enough.[/QUOTE]

edited my post with Isiah reasoning...in general, I have him multiple echelons above Stockton, to whom he's often compared

[QUOTE=fpliii]did this quickly, let me know if there are any glaring omissions

11 Robertson
12 West
13 LeBron
14 Moses
15 Erving
16 Isiah
17 Havlicek
18 Garnett
19 Wade
20 Dirk
21 Baylor
22 Pippen
23 Robinson
24 Rodman
25 Barkley
26 Drexler
27 Pettit
28 Karl Malone
29 Cousy
30 Stockton

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)[/QUOTE]


Just curious, but wanted to know your thoughts on Wade over Dirk. Did the 2nd title give him the edge?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.



Hmm, I don't see it... but more power to them if Wade can keep it up for a couple of years.[/QUOTE]


I think Wade is a lock to go down as the 3rd best SG ever. 2 rings and counting, one of the greatest Finals performances, best shot-blocking SG ever, etc. The only thing really hurting him is no MVP award, but I don't think that stops him from going down as the 3rd best.

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Just curious, but wanted to know your thoughts on Wade over Dirk. Did the 2nd title give him the edge?[/QUOTE]

it didn't make much of a difference, he was already there after last season; Dirk's never had a season like 08-09, and (despite the biased ref claims, which I'm not going to deal with here) Wade had an amazing postseason in 06

Wade's also come close twice...if he doesn't go down in 05 he'd have another ship (Shaq probably wins the Finals MVP that season, I actually think he would've won MVP if he was healthy or if the voting shook out differently, which would've jumped him ahead of Bird AND Kobe); last season LeBron's poor Finals robbed him of a second Finals MVP (he outscored and outshot Dirk for the series, and even though he didn't equal Nowitzki in 4th quarters, he was still HUGE)

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]I think Wade is a lock to go down as the 3rd best SG ever. 2 rings and counting, one of the greatest Finals performances, best shot-blocking SG ever, etc. The only thing really hurting him is no MVP award, but I don't think that stops him from going down as the 3rd best.[/QUOTE]

he wins it in 08-09 if LeBron doesn't have an all-time great season...Wade wins the MVP 90% of other seasons

do you count West as a PG or SG? if he's the former, then as I said above, Wade is already 3rd

[QUOTE=fpliii](before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)[/QUOTE]

I understand how you feel about that but this is an All-Time List and we cant fault players for playing in a particular era.

[QUOTE=fpliii]edited my post with Isiah reasoning...in general, I have him multiple echelons above Stockton, to whom he's often compared[/QUOTE]

True. I've always thought Zeke > Stockton anyways.

[QUOTE=jalbert009]I understand how you feel about that but this is an All-Time List and we cant fault players for playing in a particular era.[/QUOTE]

that wasn't a different era, it was a different game entirely

I'm fine agreeing to disagree, but from my understanding the shot clock is a large reason why Mikan retired (though I believe wear-and-tear also played a part)...if he was born 10 years later, I have no reason to believe he'd be any more than a fringe top 10 player in the 60s NBA

[QUOTE=fpliii]it didn't make much of a difference, he was already there after last season; Dirk's never had a season like 08-09, and (despite the biased ref claims, which I'm not going to deal with here) Wade had an amazing postseason in 06

Wade's also come close twice...if he doesn't go down in 05 he'd have another ship (Shaq probably wins the Finals MVP that season, I actually think he would've won MVP if he was healthy or if the voting shook out differently, which would've jumped him ahead of Bird AND Kobe); last season LeBron's poor Finals robbed him of a second Finals MVP (he outscored and outshot Dirk for the series, and even though he didn't equal Nowitzki in 4th quarters, he was still HUGE)



he wins it in 08-09 if LeBron doesn't have an all-time great season...Wade wins the MVP 90% of other seasons

do you count West as a PG or SG? if he's the former, then as I said above, Wade is already 3rd[/QUOTE]


Agreed with you on all points. People sleep on Wade too much. Loved seeing him dominate the #1 defense Pistons in 06 ECF.

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Agreed with you on all points. People sleep on Wade too much. Loved seeing him dominate the #1 defense Pistons in 06 ECF.[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Agreed with you on all points. People sleep on Wade too much. Loved seeing him dominate the #1 defense Pistons in 06 ECF.[/QUOTE]
They were 5th on d that season, they werne't much of a defense team when saunders took over for brown

[QUOTE=WockaVodka]They were 5th on d that season, they werne't much of a defense team when saunders took over for brown[/QUOTE]


Fail on my part. :hammerhead: Still loved seeing him do damage though. I was a big Pistons hater. Liked Big Ben, but couldn't stand that team.

Wade is not top 25

Dirk Nowitzki is way the **** overrated if he's cracking Top 20 list, SMH.

11 Oscar
12 West
13 Moses
14 Dr. J
15 Sir Charles
16 Karl Malone
17 Garnett
18 Robinson
19 Pippen
20 Dirk
21 Zeke
22 Drexler
23 Stockton
24 Wade
25 Chris Bosh

:D

[QUOTE=RIP CITY]Dirk Nowitzki is way the **** overrated if he's cracking Top 20 list, SMH.[/QUOTE]

He is easily top 20.

Can someone explain me why is Dirk so high??? And why is he higher than Wade on almost everybody's list???

[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]Can someone explain me why is Dirk so high??? And why is he higher than Wade on almost everybody's list???[/QUOTE]
Wade at his absolute peak was better than Dirk at his absolute peak but Dirk's peak lasted longer. Dirk has just simply put up more dominant seasons than Wade has so far in their careers.

I put them in tiers, no particular order in one tier.

11-14
11.Moses Malone
12.LeBron James
13.Jerry West
14.George Mikan

15-25
15.Julius Erving
16.Oscar Robertson
17.Karl Malone
18.Bob Pettit
19.Isiah Thomas
20.Bob Cousy
21.Charles Barkley
22.Dirk Nowitzki
23.Kevin Garnett
24.John Havlicek
25.Elgin Baylor

[QUOTE=NiHao]I put them in tiers, no particular order in one tier.

11-14
11.Moses Malone
12.LeBron James
13.Jerry West
14.George Mikan

15-25
15.Julius Erving
16.Oscar Robertson
17.Karl Malone
18.Bob Pettit
19.Isiah Thomas
20.Bob Cousy
21.Charles Barkley
22.Dirk Nowitzki
23.Kevin Garnett
24.John Havlicek
25.Elgin Baylor[/QUOTE]


I agree with your posts. I think Wade is a top 30 players of all time. It sucks that he missed a lot of games in his NBA Career.

Without a shadow of a doubt, Oscar Robertson is one of the top 10 players in NBA history. It's insulting to suggest otherwise.

Meanwhile, Bob Pettit clearly belongs in the top 20.

Some real revisionist history going on in this thread.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Wade at his absolute peak was better than Dirk at his absolute peak but Dirk's peak lasted longer. Dirk has just simply put up more dominant seasons than Wade has so far in their careers.[/QUOTE]
That's true. But Wade's 2nd ring and much better play on the defensive end gives him the clear edge over Dirk in my opinion.

[QUOTE]Without a shadow of a doubt, Oscar Robertson is one of the top 10 players in NBA history. It's insulting to suggest otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Based of what criteria, exactly ?

Just curious.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Based of what criteria, exactly ?

Just curious.[/QUOTE]

Based on basketball talent.

He was the Michael Jordan of his era. His peers and experts at the time held him in high regard - the debate about the best player ever was between him, Wilt and Russell.

In the years since, fans look at his relative lack of team success and hold it against him. They conveniently forget that this is a team sport.

I recommend reading the '[I]Biographical History of Basketball[/I]' (Bjarkman). It is arguably the most in-depth book examining basketball history. The author - who knows the game better than most - makes a very convincing argument that Oscar Robertson is the best basketball player of all-time.

The guy absolutely dominated college (arguably the best college player ever, perhaps behind only Lew Alcindor), he is the best all-around player ever (LeBron is right up there too) with no weakensses, and played for arguably the most dominant team in NBA history (his Bucks championship team with Kareem is statistically the best team ever according to '[I]The NBA From Top To Bottom[/I]' book which ranks every NBA team).

At the very least, he is without a doubt in the top 10 ever.

It is an absolute insult to see him ranked 16th in some people's lists. At the turn of the century, Oscar Robertson was voted the 2nd best player of the century by the Associated Press.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. My opinion is that he is one of the top 7 players ever:

1 Michael Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Magic Johnson
6 Larry Bird
7 Oscar Robertson

[QUOTE=WillC]Based on basketball talent.

[B]He was the Michael Jordan of his era.[/B] His peers and experts at the time held him in high regard - the debate about the best player ever was between him, Wilt and Russell.
[/QUOTE]

Umm how was he the Michael Jordan of his era again? last i checked Jordan won multiple rings as the lead dog, last i checked Jordan was the consensus best player in the NBA for the most part of his career. Oscar on the other hand got carried to his ring, and was always behind wilt in terms of statistical dominance.

Talent wise though, you are right, he should be top 10 of all time. but if stats was the primary criteria then Wilt would be GOAT and Russell would drop a few spots on peoples list...but like you said, everyone is entitled to their opinions

lilblingy, I meant that Oscar Robertson was revered like Jordan was in his era.

Experts at the time put him on a pedestal as the most talented basketball player ever.

[QUOTE]Based on basketball talent.[/QUOTE]

Well talent alone can be hard to guage and I can see a reason why he gets overrated, if that's one of the cases (considering era's have evolved).

[QUOTE]He was the Michael Jordan of his era. His peers and experts at the time held him in high regard - the debate about the best player ever was between him, Wilt and Russell.[/QUOTE]

I've heard before Cousy getting this type of talk too... but I think that was before those 3 players entered the league.

Wilt and Russell were considered better than Oscar for pretty much their entire career, yes ? So I don't see how people thought there was a case for Oscar over them.

Quick Edit - Saw what you meant about Jordan.

[QUOTE]In the years since, fans look at his relative lack of team success and hold it against him. They conveniently forget that this is a team sport.[/QUOTE]

That works both ways, though... Robertson could have won titles as he man too, but he also missed the playoffs even though he had good help on his team.

[QUOTE]I recommend reading the '[I]Biographical History of Basketball[/I]' (Bjarkman). It is arguably the most in-depth book examining basketball history. The author - who knows the game better than most - makes a very convincing argument that Oscar Robertson is the best basketball player of all-time.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the recommendation.

I don't think I'll be convinced about Oscar being the greatest basketball player, but perhaps I've taken my stance to Oscar's career incorrectly.

[QUOTE]The guy absolutely dominated college (arguably the best college player ever, perhaps behind only Lew Alcindor), he is the best all-around player ever (LeBron is right up there too) with no weakensses, and played for arguably the most dominant team in NBA history (his Bucks championship team with Kareem is statistically the best team ever according to '[I]The NBA From Top To Bottom[/I]' book which ranks every NBA team).[/QUOTE]

All very good things, although that Bucks team... should have more credit going to Alcindor, just saying.

[QUOTE]At the very least, he is without a doubt in the top 10 ever.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. My opinion is that he is one of the top 7 players ever:

1 Michael Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Magic Johnson
6 Larry Bird
7 Oscar Robertson[/QUOTE]

I think that's debatable and I just don't see Oscar that high, but I won't disagree with your opinion.

[QUOTE]It is an absolute insult to see him ranked 16th in some people's lists. At the turn of the century, Oscar Robertson was voted the 2nd best player of the century by the Associated Press.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't think he's Top 20... he's more in the Top 15 range. Career wise, there are players that have cases over him.

As a player ? It really gets tricky, but I think you have to factor in regular season/playoff dominance/team success/accolades/achievements, etc... I feel there were players who dominated more and much longer as well... though, we can disagree there.

That actually is very interesting that he was voted the 2nd best.

Can I have link to that article ?

[QUOTE=JBull]He is easily top 20.[/QUOTE]

He's probably not even one of the 20 Greatest players I've ever seen play (don't quote me on that, I'm generalizing, I'd have to sit down and think about it, it could be alittle less than 20) and I didn't start watching basketball until the 80's, that leaves alot of guys from the era's before hand as well. If Dirk Nowitzki is considered Top 20, then he is [B]easily[/B] the most overrated player in NBA history.

Legends66NBA7, I won't answer each of your points ad verbatim because, like you said, most of this is just opinion. However, I find this discussion very interesting, so I wanted to share some articles, quotes and opinions with you.

I hope you'll take the time to read them.

"Many began to refer to Oscar as [B]the best basketball player the human race had yet produced[/B]. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour" ('[I]24 Seconds to Shoot[/I]', by Leonard Koppett)

"Oscar Robertson may have been better than Michael Jordan, except Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 1960s were not the 1990s" ([I]'Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?'[/I] by Elliot Kalb)

"Thirty years after his retirement, a strong case could be made for him to be called th best player in NBA history" ([I]'Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?'[/I] by Elliot Kalb)

"Anything Jordan could do, Robertson could do better. He could shoot better, defend, pass better, and he was two inches shorter" (Leonard Koppett)

"Nobody could match the 'Big O' for pure artistic grace, for single-handed control of the playing floor he inhabited, or for all-around shooting, passing, and playmaking abilities. In brief, [B]there was never a more complete package for a basketball player put together within a single human frame[/B]" ('[I]The Biographical History of Basketball[/I]', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson...performed at a higher level (and for a longer period) in more vital areas than any other player of any other epoch" ('[I]The Biographical History of Basketball[/I]', by Peter Bjarkman)

"For those that still respect versatility, there seems to be little debate. [B]Oscar Robertson indeed remains the greatest basketball player ever invented[/B]" ('[I]The Biographical History of Basketball[/I]', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson is without a doubt the all-time everything basketball player" (Dave Bing)

"Oscar was the best player I ever played against. The guy did not have a weakness" (John Havlicek)

"Oscar is without a doubt the greatest basketball player I have ever played against. [B]To me he is the closest player I have ever seen to being perfect[/B]" (Jerry West)

[QUOTE=WillC]I hope you'll take the time to read them.

"Many began to refer to Oscar as [B]the best basketball player the human race had yet produced[/B]. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour" ('[I]24 Seconds to Shoot[/I]', by Leonard Koppett)

"Oscar Robertson may have been better than Michael Jordan, except Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 1960s were not the 1990s" ([I]'Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?'[/I] by Elliot Kalb)

"Thirty years after his retirement, a strong case could be made for him to be called th best player in NBA history" ([I]'Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?'[/I] by Elliot Kalb)

"Anything Jordan could do, Robertson could do better. He could shoot better, defend, pass better, and he was two inches shorter" (Leonard Koppett)

"Nobody could match the 'Big O' for pure artistic grace, for single-handed control of the playing floor he inhabited, or for all-around shooting, passing, and playmaking abilities. In brief, [B]there was never a more complete package for a basketball player put together within a single human frame[/B]" ('[I]The Biographical History of Basketball[/I]', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson...performed at a higher level (and for a longer period) in more vital areas than any other player of any other epoch" ('[I]The Biographical History of Basketball[/I]', by Peter Bjarkman)

"For those that still respect versatility, there seems to be little debate. [B]Oscar Robertson indeed remains the greatest basketball player ever invented[/B]" ('[I]The Biographical History of Basketball[/I]', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson is without a doubt the all-time everything basketball player" (Dave Bing)

"Oscar was the best player I ever played against. The guy did not have a weakness" (John Havlicek)

"Oscar is without a doubt the greatest basketball player I have ever played against. [B]To me he is the closest player I have ever seen to being perfect[/B]" (Jerry West)[/QUOTE]

Interesting quotes, indeed.

I mostly respect the powerful stance and opinion of Kalb, Bjarkman, and Koppett (RIP). I think there's exaggeration, but I get the point. He was a player ahead of his time, much like Wilt.

I can't really side with Kalb on saying "Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 60's weren't the 90's". Chicago never got to the Finals before Jordan and were one of the worst teams in the league before Jordan got drafted to them. Oscar again, while great, missed the playoffs with more than enough help during his prime.

Jordan 3 peated with 2 completely different rosters and the only player that stayed the same was Scottie Pippen.

I think Kalb is also a Jordan hater of sorts, looking at his old list:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48704[/url]

I don't if that's like that anymore and while I don't have a problem with Wilt being over Jordan (you can make the case), what's Shaq doing at #1 ?

Anyways, getting back to topic, I really like West's quote the best, considering they were both drafted #1 and 2 in their draft. They were true rivals. I do think he's said Wilt was the greatest players as well, but I think I'm wrong there.

Will, thanks again for the quotes, appreciate it.

Perhaps, at this glance is what I need to look at Oscar differently, as I have to admit in the past, I have been one of those people who have docked him for lack of team success.