how do you think that experiment will turn out?
he played PF his first couple seasons in the league but was younger, not quite as bulky.... Mchale is talking about experimenting in training camp
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how do you think that experiment will turn out?
he played PF his first couple seasons in the league but was younger, not quite as bulky.... Mchale is talking about experimenting in training camp
Howard and Asik is a pretty bad combination. Floor spacing will be horrible.
Asik for Ryan Anderson
Asik for Boozer
Asik for anyone who can make a jumpshot and play PF
[QUOTE=CanYouDigIt]Asik for Ryan Anderson
Asik for Boozer
Asik for anyone who can make a jumpshot and play PF[/QUOTE]
Asik for Boozer? That's a terrible trade.
[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]Asik for Boozer? That's a terrible trade.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I don't have my hawkfan avi on.
Still, the trade looks decent for both teams.
Bulls get a good backup for Noah and they can run a Twin Towers lineup against the Heat.
Rockets get a good at-the-rim and mid range scorer and rebounder in Boozer.
[QUOTE=CanYouDigIt]Sorry, I don't have my hawkfan avi on.
Still, the trade looks decent for both teams.
Bulls get a good backup for Noah and they can run a Twin Towers lineup against the Heat.
Rockets get a good at-the-rim and mid range scorer and rebounder in Boozer.[/QUOTE]
Boozer's contract is pretty bad, and he's declining. Not to mention he's a terrible defender and his offense doesn't make up too much of that...
The lane will be clogged with Asik and Howard.
Defense might be good unless the other team plays small ball.
[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]Boozer's contract is pretty bad, and he's declining. Not to mention he's a terrible defender and his offense doesn't make up too much of that...[/QUOTE]
You stupid child, the whole point of putting me with howard is so he can cover for my defense while I can concentrate on my offense, which is very effective.
Dat spacing:facepalm
[QUOTE=CarlosBoozer]You stupid child, the whole point of putting me with howard is so he can cover for my defense while I can concentrate on my offense, which is very effective.[/QUOTE]
Sorry Carlos :(
After 3 days with Hakeem Mchale is already looking for ways to get the ball out of his hands
him playing pf will be like rondo without his passing ability. but I guess that's better than Bosh and Gasol shooting 3's :confusedshrug:
Howard and Asik front court won't work in the modern NBA. Especially with two guards in Harden and Lin who need spacing.
Dwight "No Jumper" Howard at PF? :lol :lol Lol good luck! :roll: :roll:
This would be hilarious to watch in the playoffs.
OKC would just put KD at the 4 and the domination would ensue
It's not such a horrible idea. Spacing is a legit concern but what about the benefit of a potential twin tower defense? They could make it extremely hard to score in the paint and they could also win the mismatches most of the time. Howard is mobile and would do a better job of covering stretch 4s than that perimeter PF is going to do of covering him in the paint. It's not guaranteed to work well of course but that's why it's called an experiment. If it turns out to be more negative than positive they can just stop.
I used to say they should try this out when the Lakers were struggling. Put Pau down the block more and let Howard play the four using his quickness.
It might work but mobile stretch PF's who can really shoot are gonna create a lot of match up problems.
Just think about it... Howard trying to guard Ryan Anderson or Josh Smith?
Why do the Pelicans even need Anderson? Davis is not a 5 and Anderson would be much more needed in Houston. Asik for Anderson is a perfect trade for both teams.
[QUOTE=Shade8780]Why do the Pelicans even need Anderson? Davis is not a 5 and Anderson would be much more needed in Houston. Asik for Anderson is a perfect trade for both teams.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
Davis is not a 5 right now but he is the team's future center. AD has a massive frame if he fills out he will be fine.
and we have a poor man's Asik in Greg Stiemsma.
Also, Anderson fits our team better than one might think. With Holiday/Gordon/Reke, we need to take an opposing big out of the paint so all 3 can go to work attacking the basket.. and Anderson does that with his shooting.
They have a decent enough combination of youth, athleticism, and perimeter shooting to be able to make if work on both ends of the floor.
[QUOTE=russwest0]This would be hilarious to watch in the playoffs.
OKC would just put KD at the 4 and the domination would ensue[/QUOTE]
Agreed. putting somebody like KD or Josh Smith in at the 4 would be an easy way to take Dwight/Asik off the floor.
It would be fine. 4/5 combos have been made of non shooters without incident for 60 years. Even 4s with decent 15 footers arent exactly spacing the floor much when many of those jumpers are uncontested because their man doesnt respect them as a real scoring option.
Bynum and Sideshow bob are about to be on the floor together a lot. Bynum can shoot a bit but wont be asked to and Andy can hit an ugly 15 footer when left open....but hes left open. He isnt taking his man out of the paint with him. Even left alone hes not gonna punish you. You are more hurt giving their guards a lane than letting Andy have the 3 jumpers hes gonna take a night.
The 4s who shoot well enough that their teams will just whore you if you dont defend them.....not many of them.
PJ Brown could shoot. Kurt Thomas. Brandon Bass. Bass is a great shooter. And people still dont guard him terribly close.
Spacing is more of an issue with guards and swingmen. at the 4 there arent enough real shooters to force spacing no matter what.
Ibaka shoots his ass off the last few years. And guys just watch him do it. If you dont get the spacing anyway and just get 2 jumpers a night out of 90 possessions of offense...you might benefit more from totally shutting down the lane on defense as Dwight/Asik could do than by getting the 4 points a night you may by one of them being allowed an uncontested jumper every half.
It would work out fine. Just not vs all teams. But no lineup works vs all teams.
Those guys have to guard Dwight too though.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]It's not such a horrible idea. Spacing is a legit concern but what about the benefit of a potential twin tower defense? They could make it extremely hard to score in the paint and they could also win the mismatches most of the time. Howard is mobile and would do a better job of covering stretch 4s than that perimeter PF is going to do of covering him in the paint. It's not guaranteed to work well of course but that's why it's called an experiment. If it turns out to be more negative than positive they can just stop.[/QUOTE]
Yea, this, how bad can spacing be? Everyone else could be legitwet, so we're talking about the PF sagging in toward the C. It'd be best to use Dwight as picker. They'd still beast on D and the boards.
Not every team has a wet PF. Dudes can also roll to the basket if someone helps off of them. And if PF goes off of dwight to help and Asik shoots a hook shot, that's rebs all day for Dwight.
Plus, they can just start it like that then change in the middle of the game. NO PF IN THE GAME WANTS TO SEE DWIGHT. Even if he doesn't catch the ball, he should focus on just banging his body into theirs.
-Smak
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]It would be fine. [B]4/5 combos have been made of non shooters without incident for 60 years[/B].[/QUOTE]
But how many of those non shooting PF/C combo's have won championships recently? ... That is the ultimate goal... Can you explain what you mean "without incident"? I've seen lots of crappy lineups that went down without incident, doesn't really prove that it works though (at a high level).
What happened 60 years ago, in particular, I think most would agree is not completely and utterly relevant to today's game and rules.
How about the last 10-20 years?
Heat - have Bosh, who utilizes his midrange often and drags the defender out
Mavs - Had Dirk, and Marion can shoot when/if he plays the 4.
Lakers - have Gasol and even Bynum has more range than Dwight
Celtics - had KG and Big baby can shoot
Heat - had Haslem who is a jump shooter for the most part
Spurs - Had Duncan and even Oberto/Nazr/Rasho could knock down a jumper
Pistons - had Sheed with lots of range
Shaq - had the most dominant center of the modern era, so probably didn't matter, but also had Horry, etc.
Bulls - had the GOAT so probably didn't matter
Rockets - Hakeem and Sampson had range
The Orlando Magic made it to the Finals with Rashard Lewis playing PF, somebody who shot upwards of 5 three's a game.
The Thunder is not a great example, because they have a center who's extremely offensively impotent since joining them (he's never gotten back to 2010 form). Put Asik in place of Perkins and I think opponents have to respect Ibaka more because they can't camp out closer to the basket on Perkins.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]It's not such a horrible idea. Spacing is a legit concern but what about the benefit of a potential twin tower defense?[/QUOTE]
The only thing I worry about with this is fouls. Dwight is really foul prone. and Asik is not that much better, but better. If you can get either one of them in foul trouble, or consistently drag them out of the paint, I question if the defense will be reminiscent of the some of the best twin tower defenses we've seen. Howard's pick and roll defense is ok, mostly redeemed by his shot blocking abilities and not necessarily his ability to stay with the offensive player. I guess it boils down to having a good defensive system, which we def didn't see in Houston last season or Los Angeles.
[QUOTE=SCdac]But how many of those non shooting PF/C combo's have won championships recently? ... That is the ultimate goal... Can you explain what you mean "without incident"? I've seen lots of crappy lineups that went down without incident, doesn't really prove that it works though (at a high level).
What happened 60 years ago, in particular, I think most would agree is not completely and utterly relevant to today's game and rules.
How about the last 10-20 years?
Heat - have Bosh, who utilizes his midrange often and drags the defender out
Mavs - Had Dirk, and Marion can shoot when/if he plays the 4.
Lakers - have Gasol and even Bynum has more range than Dwight
Celtics - had KG and Big baby can shoot
Heat - had Haslem who is a jump shooter for the most part
Spurs - Had Duncan and even Oberto/Nazr/Rasho could knock down a jumper
Pistons - had Sheed with lots of range
Shaq - had the most dominant center of the modern era, so probably didn't matter, but also had Horry, etc.
Bulls - had the GOAT so probably didn't matter
Rockets - Hakeem and Sampson had range
The Orlando Magic made it to the Finals with Rashard Lewis playing PF, somebody who shot upwards of 5 three's a game.
The Thunder is not a great example, because they have a center who's extremely offensively impotent since joining them (he's never gotten back to 2010 form). Put Asik in place of Perkins and I think opponents have to respect Ibaka more because they can't camp out closer to the basket on Perkins.[/QUOTE]
The best teams win...not because of a particular style per Se, but because they are the best team. Put Lebron, CP3 on Houston and they will win with the non shooting 4/5 because they would just be better.
Also, just because a team doesn't win a title doesn't mean the lineup can't work. Only one team wins a year.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]The best teams win...not because of a particular style per Se, but because they are the best team. Put Lebron, CP3 on Houston and they will win with the non shooting 4/5 because they would just be better.
Also, just because a team doesn't win a title doesn't mean the lineup can't work. Only one team wins a year.[/QUOTE]
Not every team wins. Obviously.
But I think it's fair to assume the Rockets are building a roster with the intentions of making the WCF or Finals.
An experiment, as McHale puts it when talking about Dwight-Asik, either works to some degree or it doesn't work to some degree. We will probably find out long before the playoffs.
Having said that, "working" in this scenario I believe would be making a strong playoff run or winning a title, "not working" I think would be losing early in the playoffs, not making the playoffs, or losing deep in the playoffs because of a glaring problem directly related to this topic (lack of front court chemistry and effectiveness).
As for Lebron and CP3, I agree turning the Rockets into a fairy tail / NBA2K lineup would put them over the top... but let's be realistic.
I disagree that you think there are not some commonalities among winning teams and generally winning formulas to use. It is a "rule of law"? obviously not, but still worth acknowledging.
[QUOTE=SCdac]Not every team wins. Obviously.
But I think it's fair to assume the Rockets are building a roster with the intentions of making the WCF or Finals.
An experiment, as McHale puts it when talking about Dwight-Asik, either works to some degree or it doesn't work to some degree. We will probably find out long before the playoffs.
Having said that, "working" in this scenario I believe would be making a strong playoff run or winning a title, "not working" I think would be losing early in the playoffs, not making the playoffs, or losing deep in the playoffs because of a glaring problem directly related to this topic (lack of front court chemistry and effectiveness).
As for Lebron and CP3, I agree turning the Rockets into a fairy tail / NBA2K lineup would put them over the top... but let's be realistic.
I disagree that you think there are not some commonalities among winning teams and generally winning formulas to use. It is a "rule of law"? obviously not, but still worth acknowledging.[/QUOTE]
People say the same thing about those suns teams. But if had Lebron on them they win a title. All the sudden small ball wins. It's about the specific teams in question.
Bynum and Pau won a title and there was zero floor spacing unless you count teams giving Pau jumpers the same way they give them to Josh Smith.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]People say the same thing about those suns teams. But if had Lebron on them they win a title. All the sudden small ball wins. It's about the specific teams in question.
Bynum and Pau won a title and there was zero floor spacing unless you count teams giving Pau jumpers the same way they give them to Josh Smith.[/QUOTE]
Ummm...Pau is a very solid shooter for a PF from 15-17 feet out.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]People say the same thing about those suns teams. But if had Lebron on them they win a title. All the sudden small ball wins. It's about the specific teams in question.
Bynum and Pau won a title and there was zero floor spacing unless you count teams giving Pau jumpers the same way they give them to Josh Smith.[/QUOTE]
Pau has steadily increased his usage of his jumper, probably even too much, but no doubt his range helped the Lakers offense in ways Duncan's jumper has helped the Spurs. It's not that teams "give him jumpers", it's that teams have to respect it and cover him when he roams outside of the paint (but within the 3 point line). Just having the ability to face-up opponents and fake the jumper makes a difference. For a host of reasons a high-low game with a PF or C who can shoot works.
[QUOTE=SCdac]Pau has steadily increased his usage of his jumper, probably even too much, but no doubt his range helped the Lakers offense in ways Duncan's jumper has helped the Spurs. It's not that teams "give him jumpers", it's that teams have to respect it and cover him when he roams outside of the paint (but within the 3 point line). Just having the ability to face-up opponents and fake the jumper makes a difference. For a host of reasons a high-low game with a PF or C who can shoot works.[/QUOTE]
I understand the concept of spacing and agree with it. However, teams didnt respect Pau's jumper. It was conceded. Especially in the playoffs.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]I understand the concept of spacing and agree with it. However, teams didnt respect Pau's jumper. It was conceded. Especially in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Was just now watching games from LAL-BOS 2010 on youtube and the Celtics closed in on Gasol pretty hard every time he got the ball in midrange. They didn't back off him daring him to shoot, like we've seen defenders do to, say, Rajon Rondo at times. Disagree with you that teams didn't respect Gasol's jumper but agree to disagree. Often times they had Lamar Odom at PF too, pushing Gasol to center, again emphasizing range and spacing.
[QUOTE=SCdac]The only thing I worry about with this is fouls. Dwight is really foul prone. and Asik is not that much better, but better. If you can get either one of them in foul trouble, or consistently drag them out of the paint, I question if the defense will be reminiscent of the some of the best twin tower defenses we've seen. Howard's pick and roll defense is ok, mostly redeemed by his shot blocking abilities and not necessarily his ability to stay with the offensive player. I guess it boils down to having a good defensive system, which we def didn't see in Houston last season or Los Angeles.[/QUOTE]
as (forgot who) would say it's a "mute" point.
The reason is because if they foul then they sit on the bench, so they aren't playing together. The reason they are both starting is because of ego issues not because this is the best line up.
-Smak
[QUOTE=SCdac]The only thing I worry about with this is fouls. Dwight is really foul prone. and Asik is not that much better, but better. If you can get either one of them in foul trouble, or consistently drag them out of the paint, I question if the defense will be reminiscent of the some of the best twin tower defenses we've seen. Howard's pick and roll defense is ok, mostly redeemed by his shot blocking abilities and not necessarily his ability to stay with the offensive player. I guess it boils down to having a good defensive system, which we def didn't see in Houston last season or Los Angeles.[/QUOTE]
They won't be Duncan an Robinson but the Rockets shouldn't be worried about their place in history, they should be trying to put out the line-up that gives them the best chance to win games.
Imagine Dwight and Ask in the fourth quarter of a playoff game against the Spurs. Popovitch will be drooling over the amount of fouls he could lay on these dudes.
[QUOTE]But how many of those non shooting PF/C combo's have won championships recently? ... [/QUOTE]
How many teams of any kind have won recently?
What kind of question is that?
One team wins a year. Those teams usually win more than once with that core. Spurs, heat, Lakers, Bulls, Rockets....
The titles are won by very small groups of teams.
Asking if something works...is not the same as asking who won a ring doing it lately.
[QUOTE]That is the ultimate goal... Can you explain what you mean "without incident"? I've seen lots of crappy lineups that went down without incident, doesn't really prove that it works though[/QUOTE]
Seems it does.
Basketball is complicated in ways but not so much as people want to pretend in discussions like this.
Dwight playing the 4 will cause nothing of note to happen. Not like hes not done it before. It is a non issue. Its a non issue no matter who the 5 next to him is.
That doesnt mean im saying dont talk about it. I dont care what anyone is interested in. What im saying is....
Darius Miles played point for the cavs
Barkley was a small forward in Philly
Shane Battier is a power forward now
Anthony Mason was a pointguard on the Knicks for a while
Shaq and Dennis Rodman played next to eachother and they had the best stretch of that season
Positions dont matter. Especially at the 4-5. Spacing is just a hot term on places like this these days. All about the spacing.
This shit will not matter. Its like people saying Lebron cant defend bigmen. Only he does...so what does it matter what anyone thinks he can do?
Dwight plays the 4. Has plenty of times. Im talking...for years. N omatter how they decide to go...he and Asik will play together.
At those times....NOTHING of note will happen.
Even if they start together the Rockets have shooters to spare. Some of them the type to play the 4. I liked Motiejunas when I watched them. Parsons is 6'9'' and will at some point be at the 4 no matter what anyone thinks makes sense. basketball games are too fluid to worry about shit like this.
How their lineup looks for 4 minutes before it changes just isnt that big a deal. Especially when its not exactly breaking new ground. Two bigmen who dont shoot?
Not exactly putting Dwight at the 2 and just seeing how it goes.
Its standard basketball.
Nothing newsworthy.
All depends on the style they play.
If they played some zone on defense and slowed it down and played half court offensively I could see it actually being pretty effective....especially in the playoffs.
But a stretch 4 next to Dwight is simply way more valuable than Asik. Rockets should definitely trade Asik and Lin imo.
Why Lin?
I never got that. He isnt elite. He isnt even above average. but hes young and has shown potential. Why not at least give him a shot with Dwight?
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Why Lin?
I never got that. He isnt elite. He isnt even above average. but hes young and has shown potential. Why not at least give him a shot with Dwight?[/QUOTE]
Rockets have a promising PG in PatBe and they should capitalize on him. Lin is a 6th Man on the Championship Team with a Star Player's contract.