Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

If so, what makes them impressive? Dirk's fade away? Kevin Love's jump shot?

I personally love the way Dirk operates on offense.. Especially the fade away

Nowitzki was certainly impressive to watch during his championship run. He fearlessly takes and makes a lot of tough shots, and I, personally find that exciting to watch. Love is more complicated. I don't like his game (well, his offensive game), but that has a lot to do with my own disdain of the 3-point shot. I do like his aggressive rebounding style, but when do you ever see rebounds on sports center? You know who else should be mentioned in this thread? Zach Randolph. He does nothing fancy and can't jump any higher than I can, but he gets the job done. He reminds me of Paul Silas but with more offensive skills.

Will & skill. Dirk is the man :applause:

Please don't put Kevin Love and Dirk Nowitzki in the same phrasing

Dirk yes Love no.

[QUOTE=kNicKz]Please don't put Kevin Love and Dirk Nowitzki in the same phrasing[/QUOTE]

Thank you! Do his supporters realize he had a .352 FG% last year? That was even worse than Rubio.

[QUOTE=pudman13]Thank you! Do his supporters realize he had a .352 FG% last year? That was even worse than Rubio.[/QUOTE]

Damn, that's bad. :wtf:

[QUOTE=pudman13]Thank you! Do his supporters realize he had a .352 FG% last year? That was even worse than Rubio.[/QUOTE]
wahhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!? just looked that up because I thought it was impossible but it's true, he did only play 18 games though but still

Watching Dirk highlights is a thing of beauty. Just because he's not doing flashy passes or big slams doesn't mean they're boring. His shots are so clean, he's taking these tough contested fadeaways that swish clean through the basket. You can appreciate his ability when it's slowed down.

Can't comment on K-Love highlights

Kevin Love is the very definition of empty stats. So far he has had almost no positive impact on his teammates and therefore team performances. Minnesota should realize that they are in a great and unique situation that their real star/draw is Ricky Rubio, which allows them to trade their best player Love without the usual backlash. Love has acted poorly toward the Wolves before. If they are a 0.500 team at the all-star break I

The only similarity between dirk and love is their race

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Dirk yes Love no.[/QUOTE]
Kblaze I'm trying to figure who most-visually resembles the game of Bob Pettit today, you've seen some of him cause I know you made a mix about him a while back, what do you think?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Dirk yes Love no.[/QUOTE]
This (which doesn't mean Love isn't a fine player, since that's clearly the larger point of this thread. Nowhere near Dirk, of course, but it doesn't have to do with being spectacular)

[QUOTE=pudman13]Thank you! Do his supporters realize he had a .352 FG% last year? That was even worse than Rubio.[/QUOTE]

The guy was playing with a freaking broken hand and you talk about FG% ?

His career FG% is 45 and that's including that season.

It remains to be seen if he EVER gets his stroke back after returning way too soon, and learned bad mechanics to compensate.

Funny you mention Dirk highlights. I found some of his highlights on this youtube channel: [URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAClutchTime/videos"]http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAClutchTime/videos[/URL]

Out of all the player videos on that channel, Dirks was one of the most impressive. The guy is just simply unguardable.

Nothing fun about watching a guy play volleyball with his rebounds to pad his stats. I **** with Dirk highlights though. Dat unguardable release

[QUOTE=pudman13]Thank you! Do his supporters realize he had a .352 FG% last year? That was even worse than Rubio.[/QUOTE]

He only played 18 games and more than half of those games his hand was broken.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]His career FG% is 45 and that's including that season.[/QUOTE]

That's still nothing to be proud of for a power forward.

You guys missed op's agenda:facepalm

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Kblaze I'm trying to figure who most-visually resembles the game of Bob Pettit today, you've seen some of him cause I know you made a mix about him a while back, what do you think?[/QUOTE]

I've studied up on Pettit and he's one of those old-time players who doesn't translate that well to the modern game. He's not as far off as those set-shooters, or the guys with the running hook shots, but he's also nowhere near as athletic as someone like Nowitzki.

Are there are any modern day players who are/were really good rebounders without being bruisers? Great outside shooters who didn't drive or dribble much? What struck me when reading about Pettit is how he was aware of his own limitations. He couldn't handle the ball to save his life, which is a big reason he learned to get a shot off so quickly. This sounds weird, but a somewhat modern player who reminds me of him is Danny Ferry. Nowadays a guy like Pettit wouldn't be an all-around scorer. He'd probably end up being a 3-point specialist (don't get me started.) Donyell Marshall is another one who comes to mind (and is maybe a better comparison since he was a good rebounder.) I like to think that Pettit would be better than Ferry or Marshall, but unlike a lot of great non-centers who came a bit after him (West, Baylor, Robertson, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkens, etc...) I'm less likely to be able to make an argument that he would be a star today.

[QUOTE=pudman13]I've studied up on Pettit and he's one of those old-time players who doesn't translate that well to the modern game. He's not as far off as those set-shooters, or the guys with the running hook shots, but he's also nowhere near as athletic as someone like Nowitzki.

Are there are any modern day players who are/were really good rebounders without being bruisers? [B]Great outside shooters who didn't drive or dribble much? [/B] What struck me when reading about Pettit is how he was aware of his own limitations. He couldn't handle the ball to save his life, which is a big reason he learned to get a shot off so quickly. This sounds weird, but a somewhat modern player who reminds me of him is Danny Ferry. Nowadays a guy like Pettit wouldn't be an all-around scorer. He'd probably end up being a 3-point specialist (don't get me started.) Donyell Marshall is another one who comes to mind (and is maybe a better comparison since he was a good rebounder.) I like to think that Pettit would be better than Ferry or Marshall, but unlike a lot of great [B]non-centers[/B] who came a bit after him (West, Baylor, Robertson, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkens, etc...) I'm less likely to be able to make an argument that he would be a star today.[/QUOTE]

Meh. Wasn't he one of the first (if not the first) guys to have a regular weight-training regimen? He also got a ton of offensive rebounds (in a couple of sources, he's called one of the GOATs in that regard) and by all accounts got a ton of baskets on putbacks, so he was pretty physical inside.

FWIW he was listed as a center pretty regularly during his first few years (6'9" barefoot, so he wasn't huge, but he wouldn't be one of the smallest centers in the league in any era), though Chuck Share when he came in played a lot at the pivot as well.

[QUOTE=pudman13][B]I've studied up on Pettit and he's one of those old-time players who doesn't translate that well to the modern game.[/B] He's not as far off as those set-shooters, or the guys with the running hook shots, [B]but he's also nowhere near as athletic as someone like Nowitzki.[/B]

Are there are any modern day players who are/were really good rebounders without being bruisers? Great outside shooters who didn't drive or dribble much? What struck me when reading about Pettit is how he was aware of his own limitations. He couldn't handle the ball to save his life, which is a big reason he learned to get a shot off so quickly. This sounds weird, but a somewhat modern player who reminds me of him is Danny Ferry. Nowadays a guy like Pettit wouldn't be an all-around scorer. He'd probably end up being a 3-point specialist (don't get me started.) Donyell Marshall is another one who comes to mind (and is maybe a better comparison since he was a good rebounder.) I like to think that Pettit would be better than Ferry or Marshall, but unlike a lot of great non-centers who came a bit after him (West, Baylor, Robertson, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkens, etc...) I'm less likely to be able to make an argument that he would be a star today.[/QUOTE]
Uh, what exactly did you study?

[QUOTE=fpliii]Meh. Wasn't he one of the first (if not the first) guys to have a regular weight-training regimen? He also got a ton of offensive rebounds (in a couple of sources, he's called one of the GOATs in that regard) and by all accounts got a ton of baskets on putbacks, so he was pretty physical inside.

FWIW he was listed as a center pretty regularly during his first few years (6'9" barefoot, so he wasn't huge, but he wouldn't be one of the smallest centers in the league in any era), though Chuck Share when he came in played a lot at the pivot as well.[/QUOTE]
The listing of him as a center is misinformation. He did not play center in the NBA, he immediately started off as a forward in the NBA because the coach knew he was too small to play center in the NBA (as a rookie, 6-8 and 1/4 inch tall w/o shoes and only 210lbs). He eventually bulked up to 245lbs and probably did split duties occasionally much later in his career, but out of the gates his coach told him to stay outside thus he learned to play as a jump shooting and driving power forward (he was a hook shooting center only in college - he also retired any use of his hook shot when Bill Russell came into the league because Bill Russell caught his hook shot out of the air). All these important details to his career should become more obvious to the masses when I release the Bob Pettit mix (still in progress).

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]The listing of him as a center is misinformation. He did not play center in the NBA, he immediately started off as a forward in the NBA because the coach knew he was too small to play center in the NBA (as a rookie, 6-8 and 1/4 inch tall w/o shoes and only 210lbs). He eventually bulked up to 245lbs and probably did split duties occasionally much later in his career, but out of the gates his coach told him to stay outside thus he learned to play as a jump shooting and driving power forward (he was a hook shooting center only in college - he also retired any use of his hook shot when Bill Russell came into the league because Bill Russell caught his hook shot out of the air). All these important details to his career should become more obvious to the masses when I release the Bob Pettit mix (still in progress).[/QUOTE]

Ah okay, thanks for the info. I'm just basing that on listings I've seen in old box scores and articles from dumping archives. I really want to pick up his autobiography, must be a great read.

As always, looking forward to more of your videos. :cheers:

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Uh, what exactly did you study?[/QUOTE]

I've read as many books about the 50s and 60s NBA as I could find and one thing that comes up again and again is that he wasn't very athletic and that he was so weak on the dribble that he did everything he could to avoid having to dribble more than a couple times on any play. The lack of athleticism can be compensated for, but I just don't see poor ball-handling skills translating to an all star in today's game, especially when the defenses play to keep people from getting the kind of position he always seemed to have for his mid-range shots. (I also think Jerry West would have had to develop a left hand to be a star in a later era---and maybe they both would have developed ball handing skills if they needed to, just as I believe any old time star would haveadapted to the conditioning or defenses of any other era.) If you've read my posts here you'll know that I'm one of the guys who continually defends the old time greats and believes they would have been stars in any era. I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong here (especially since Russell names him as one of the best he ever played against), but unfortunately there's very little video of him beyond a few shooting highlights. I have to see full games of people to realy get a handle on their style nad their strengths/weaknesses. Unlike many of the others, I'm basing my comments here about 98% on hearsay from people who were there at the time. If you have arguments that contradict what I believe, I'd love to hear them.

[QUOTE=pudman13]I've read as many books about the 50s and 60s NBA as I could find and one thing that comes up again and again is that he wasn't very athletic and that he was so weak on the dribble that he did everything he could to avoid having to dribble more than a couple times on any play. The lack of athleticism can be compensated for, but I just don't see poor ball-handling skills translating to an all star in today's game, especially when the defenses play to keep people from getting the kind of position he always seemed to have for his mid-range shots. (I also think Jerry West would have had to develop a left hand to be a star in a later era---and maybe they both would have developed ball handing skills if they needed to, just as I believe any old time star would haveadapted to the conditioning or defenses of any other era.) If you've read my posts here you'll know that I'm one of the guys who continually defends the old time greats and believes they would have been stars in any era. I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong here (especially since Russell names him as one of the best he ever played against), but unfortunately there's very little video of him beyond a few shooting highlights. I have to see full games of people to realy get a handle on their style nad their strengths/weaknesses. Unlike many of the others, I'm basing my comments here about 98% on hearsay from people who were there at the time. If you have arguments that contradict what I believe, I'd love to hear them.[/QUOTE]
He definitely didn't dribble more than 2-3 times a possession so he couldn't dribble much but it's not like he was or would be getting stripped or forcing himself to do things he couldn't - his limited dribbling ability is true and is a product of him being brought up a traditional back-to-basket center through college and being told to play forward in the NBA. Today training early on emphasizes face up skills, and back to basket skills are a forgotten art where as then sort of the opposite was true, back to basket skill was drilled into the taller projects and face-up skills were sort of a 'learn it on your own free time' venture. He has touched on this stating he would work on his dribble if he played the modern game just like he has touched on the fact that he would have started weight programs at a younger age than he did in the NBA (he started at 23) and how he wouldn't play at 245 today, he'd instead play at about 260.

But as far as athleticism goes - how could anyone seriously think Dirk or any other typical European or cliche white guy in the NBA is 'way more athletic' than Bob Pettit. His athleticism is... well, pretty much on par with any typical big NBA-level white guys. It's still NBA level, he still was fluid and co-ordinated with great touch and it shows on his drives to the hoop, he also had strength and could also absorb contact well and he knew how to really stretch out and make the best of his limited dribbling. I just don't understand how people can jump to a conclusion about someones comparative athleticism from reading a book.

*EDIT* btw, a dominant modern player just came to mind who dribbles as few times per possession as Bob Pettit... Tim Duncan also doesn't dribble more than 2-3 times a possession. Yet he's still a dominant figure in this era. If you watch Duncan dribble he dribbles very few times but can cover a lot of ground each dribble and stretch himself to the hoop with finesse to cover a lot of ground with few dribbles. Pettit's floor game in that respect, looks [I]very[/I] similar watching film. Duncan is also a traditional 5 who was told to play the 4.

[QUOTE=pudman13]That's still nothing to be proud of for a power forward.[/QUOTE] His career shooting efficiency is about the same as Duncan's, and Garnett's, slightly lower than Pau's. He just shoots more 3s.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW] how could anyone seriously think Dirk or any other typical European or cliche white guy in the NBA is 'way more athletic' than Bob Pettit. [/QUOTE]

Dirk seems very quick to me, but of course there's something about the nautre of old-time video that makes people look slower than they were, so Pettit might have been quicker than I think. I think that's one reason people don't appreciate Baylor like they should, and it's why 70s Havlicek appears on film to be a better player than 60s Havlicek (when, of course, he's basically the same, just in a slightly differentrole.) Again, I haven't seen as much video of Pettit as I'd like. There definitely is something to "know your limitations," i.e. if he's not a great dribbler he figures out what else he needs to do. Not sure about the Duncan comparisons--Duncan's an inside player and doesn't rely as much on the outside shot, and also is a very good passer and shot blocker, and, of course, we have no block data from that era so who knows about that. But yes, Duncan rarely dribbles and is an expert at positioning himself.

Another thing in Pettit's favor is that he was still playing at an all-star level in '63-'64 and in fact had an improved FG% as his career went along, which to me indicates a high basektball IQ and an ability to adapt.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]If so, what makes them impressive? Dirk's fade away? Kevin Love's jump shot?[/QUOTE]

Dirk ability to make difficult shot like its easy >>>>

[QUOTE=pudman13][B]Dirk seems very quick to me, but of course there's something about the nautre of old-time video that makes people look slower than they were, so Pettit might have been quicker than I think.[/B] I think that's one reason people don't appreciate Baylor like they should, and it's why 70s Havlicek appears on film to be a better player than 60s Havlicek (when, of course, he's basically the same, just in a slightly differentrole.) Again, I haven't seen as much video of Pettit as I'd like. There definitely is something to "know your limitations," i.e. if he's not a great dribbler he figures out what else he needs to do. Not sure about the Duncan comparisons--Duncan's an inside player and doesn't rely as much on the outside shot, and also is a very good passer and shot blocker, and, of course, we have no block data from that era so who knows about that. But yes, Duncan rarely dribbles and is an expert at positioning himself.

Another thing in Pettit's favor is that he was still playing at an all-star level in '63-'64 and in fact had an improved FG% as his career went along, which to me indicates a high basektball IQ and an ability to adapt.[/QUOTE]
I did touch on this earlier in the week when I discovered through studying the shot clocks in stock film of his that even the footage that appeared to NOT be in 'slow motion' was indeed, being played back much slower than real time. Here's an example:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2lpbHuCtQ[/url]

unadjusted series of clips start from the beginning, followed by the exact same series of clips that have been shot clock corrected at 1:15.

Also Pettit was indeed adaptable, for example when Bill Russell came into the league Russell caught Bob Pettit's hook shot and Pettit retired the shot immediately after that. If something didn't work he dropped it, and he was one of the hardest workers. He practiced 5-6 hours a day every day during his career.

[QUOTE=Inactive]His career shooting efficiency is about the same as Duncan's, and Garnett's, slightly lower than Pau's. He just shoots more 3s.[/QUOTE]

There's a big qualitative difference between 45% and 50% (Duncan and Garnett), but yes, the 3's do make the overall efficiency somewhat closer. I'm not sure this is the place to have this discussion, but when you have a guy who can rebound like Love, I hate the thought of him taking all of those bombs rather than playing an inside game.

[QUOTE=pudman13]There's a big qualitative difference between 45% and 50% (Duncan and Garnett), but yes, the 3's do make the overall efficiency somewhat closer.[/quote]His 2p% is typically around 47-48%, Duncan and Garnett are usually around 50%. It's a difference, but not a big one, and he more than makes up for it with his FT, and 3pt superiority.

His weakness is really not efficiency, or offensive impact. He's just bad on defense, better than average but not great at creating for himself, and injury prone. When you need a big bucket, or a stop, you can't rely on Love, but he will do work over the course of a game.

[quote]I'm not sure this is the place to have this discussion, but when you have a guy who can rebound like Love, I hate the thought of him taking all of those bombs rather than playing an inside game.[/QUOTE]I think the spacing he provides for Pek is much more important than the occasional offensive rebound.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]

unadjusted series of clips start from the beginning, followed by the exact same series of clips that have been shot clock corrected at 1:15.

.[/QUOTE]

Wow. This really does put things into perspective, and I hadn't seen it before. Youtube is weird. I often check your youtube channel and for some reason this one doesn't show up. It has happened before. You have a video on the '63-'64 (i think) Lakers that I discovered by accident a few days ago. It also doesn't show up if I search your channel.

An off-topic question, if you're willing to answer it... I know the sources of almost all of the dunks on your 60s mix, but two of the ones that elude me are the Havlicek dunks. Where did those come from?

[QUOTE=pudman13]Wow. This really does put things into perspective, and I hadn't seen it before. Youtube is weird. I often check your youtube channel and for some reason this one doesn't show up. It has happened before. You have a video on the '63-'64 (i think) Lakers that I discovered by accident a few days ago. It also doesn't show up if I search your channel.

An off-topic question, if you're willing to answer it... I know the sources of almost all of the dunks on your 60s mix, but two of the ones that elude me are the Havlicek dunks. Where did those come from?[/QUOTE]
It isn't Youtube, it's me. A lot of videos on my Youtube channel are deliberately made unlisted by me, for various reasons. You should make playlists and add my videos too them so you can always find them because chances are I will eventually unlist something (to replace it, to avoid copyright, etc). In the dunk video, only 1 time does John Havlicek dunk (the color clip) and that is from the 1963-64 Lakers documentary. The other #17 Celtic that dunks is not Havlicek, it is actually Gene Conley from the 1950's. I initially mistook him for Havlicek but it is not Havlicek.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]It isn't Youtube, it's me. A lot of videos on my Youtube channel are deliberately made unlisted by me, for various reasons. You should make playlists and add my videos too them so you can always find them because chances are I will eventually unlist something (to replace it, to avoid copyright, etc). In the dunk video, only 1 time does John Havlicek dunk (the color clip) and that is from the 1963-64 Lakers documentary. The other #17 Celtic that dunks is not Havlicek, it is actually Gene Conley from the 1950's. I initially mistook him for Havlicek but it is not Havlicek.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info. I'm a youtube idiot, but I really should start saving some of the stuff I return to often. A lot of great 60s NBA games have disappeared, for example, and all of those half hour year-summary documentaries are priceless.

I found a 1960 Conley dunk on efootage...Conley must be the earliest NBA dunker to exist on film.

[QUOTE=pudman13]Thanks for the info. I'm a youtube idiot, but I really should start saving some of the stuff I return to often. A lot of great 60s NBA games have disappeared, for example, and all of those half hour year-summary documentaries are priceless.

I found a 1960 Conley dunk on efootage...Conley must be the earliest NBA dunker to exist on film.[/QUOTE]
His dunk on Bob Pettit? That's a nice one, Conley I've learned was a great all around athlete, he was a pitcher in the MLB (won a championship in baseball with the Braves I believe too) and of course won at least one championship with the Celtics in the NBA though I'm not sure how many seasons the Celtics kept him because he was just a roleplayer in the NBA. He was also the state Champion high jumper when he was in high school. He's not the first NBA dunker on film though. I've never made an effort to go back as far as I can to find the oldest known NBA dunks on film but I'm sure there are at least a few dunks from the early 1950's on film because there are tons of NCAA dunks from the 50's. I just typically don't watch too much 1950's NBA footage.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Dirk yes Love no.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same.

It's not on film, but George Yardley claims his final basket of '58, the one that gave him 2000 points for the year, was a dunk. Russell came into the league a year earlier, and he dunked. Most of what I've read insists that people who could dunk before that chose not to because it was considered an insult and there would be physical retaliation. My dad grew up watching basketball, including those NBA barnstorming games, and he says he never saw it until Russell, though it might have been something that he wouldn't have taken notice of and remembered.

You know what time period of the NBA (and ABA, for that matter) is way under-represented on video? The early 1970s. There must be a bunch of games out there somewhere, but hardly any of them ever get shown, even playoff games. I wish itunes would add more to their Hardwood Classics series. I'd watch anything from the early 80s or earlier if it was made available.

Posted Oct 19 2013 10:10PM

GREENSBORO, N.C. (AP)

Dallas forward Dirk Nowitzki did not play, getting a night of rest despite occasional "We want Dirk!" chants from some of the 7,678 fans at the Greensboro Coliseum.

Seems Bobcats fans like watching Dirk more than their own team and new star Al Jefferson, who also DNP, but received no chants. Just move them to Seattle already. :cry: