Shaquille O'Neal, Wilt Chamberlain, and Bill Russell sucked at FT's too.

Elephant in the room. 3 high ranking members of the fraternity of greatest centers in history all shared a characteristic Dwight struggles with. None of them ever mastered free throws. Not saying Dwight is on their level because he isn't, but I'm just pointing out that some of you guys are calling Dwight an idiot or a failure for not being able to make his FT's - his FT's are the least of his problems.

what was russ' %?

question for the old timers

were russell and wilt intentionally fouled a lot?

and if not why not?

Rules or dumb opposing coaches?

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]question for the old timers

were russell and wilt intentionally fouled a lot?

and if not why not?

Rules or dumb opposing coaches?[/QUOTE]
The rules back in Russell and Wilt's era were 2 to make 1 and 3 to make 2. Hack-a-whoever wasn't as good an idea as it would be today. Though I'm sure there are examples of it at certain times.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Elephant in the room. 3 high ranking members of the fraternity of greatest centers in history all shared a characteristic Dwight struggles with. None of them ever mastered free throws. Not saying Dwight is on their level because he isn't, but I'm just pointing out that some of you guys are calling Dwight an idiot or a failure for not being able to make his FT's - his FT's are the least of his problems.[/QUOTE]

The difference, in Shaq and Wilt's case at least, was that they were so dominant on the offensive end, that it more than compensated for their incompetence at the free throw line.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Elephant in the room. 3 high ranking members of the fraternity of greatest centers in history all shared a characteristic Dwight struggles with. None of them ever mastered free throws. Not saying Dwight is on their level because he isn't, but I'm just pointing out that some of you guys are calling Dwight an idiot or a failure for not being able to make his FT's - his FT's are the least of his problems.[/QUOTE]
This is his problem.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FJyBfTk.png[/IMG]

Finals career FT%

Hakeem: 91/123 (74.0%)
Kareem: 229/326 (70.2%)
Russell: 319/520 (61.3%)
Shaq: 185/382 (48.4%)
Wilt: 124/331 (37.5%)

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Elephant in the room. 3 high ranking members of the fraternity of greatest centers in history all shared a characteristic Dwight struggles with. None of them ever mastered free throws. Not saying Dwight is on their level because he isn't, but I'm just pointing out that some of you guys are calling Dwight an idiot or a failure for not being able to make his FT's - his FT's are the least of his problems.[/QUOTE]

WHen you lack the skills and dominance those guys did, it is your biggest problem. Shaq was not a free throw shooter. Yet he was able to impact the game so much that it negated his deficiencies at the stipe. Because Dwight does not have the skills Shaq did, free throws have become his biggest problem. Teams are abusing his weaknesses. The root is he does not have reliable offensive moves or skills, but it wouldnt even be all that big a problem if he couldnt be exploited at the free thrown line.

[QUOTE=no pun intended]This is his problem.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FJyBfTk.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
So the worst offensive player (by far) out of those 3 shoots the least? how is that surprising?

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]The difference, in Shaq and Wilt's case at least, was that they were so dominant on the offensive end, that it more than compensated for their incompetence at the free throw line.[/QUOTE]

This. And in Russell's case, he didn't expect to be showcased on offense.

Didn't they have to change the ft rules for wilt?

[QUOTE=TheMilkyBarKid]Didn't they have to change the ft rules for wilt?[/QUOTE]
At Kansas as a freshman (still ineligible at the time) Wilt was witnessed 'goofing around' at one of the KU Auditoriums by Tex Winters taking off behind the FT line and dunking it. This would have been a legal way to shoot free throws at the time. Tex was chairman of NCAA basketball rules and regulations at the time, and suggested they vote on a new set of rules so that you had to release the ball from behind the line. So, Wilt never actually performed this style of shooting free throws in a real game - that is a myth. But he is the direct cause of the rule changes, which were more or less a preventative measure to ensure he [I]can't[/I] do that even if he'd wanted too.

Shaq made his FTs when it counted.

So?

If his only problem was FTs then you have a point.

But it's not. Shaq and Wilt are 10 tiers above Dwight offensively.

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]The difference, in Shaq and Wilt's case at least, was that they were so dominant on the offensive end, that it more than compensated for their incompetence at the free throw line.[/QUOTE]

BAM!
/thread

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]The difference, in Shaq and Wilt's case at least, was that they were so dominant on the offensive end, that it more than compensated for their incompetence at the free throw line.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty common sense, but I came in to post practically the exact same thing. :applause:

[QUOTE=I<3NBA]Shaq made his FTs when it counted.[/QUOTE]

Has someone ever looked it up? I have never seen any statistical proof either way.

Curious is all, since Shaq seems to say it once a week on TNT.

[QUOTE=I<3NBA]Shaq made his FTs when it counted.[/QUOTE]
came here to say this.

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]So?

[B]If his only problem was FTs[/B] then you have a point.

[B]But it's not.[/B] Shaq and Wilt are 10 tiers above Dwight offensively.[/QUOTE]
That WAS my point - so basically, we agree

[QUOTE=JimmyMcAdocious]Has someone ever looked it up? I have never seen any statistical proof either way.

Curious is all, since Shaq seems to say it once a week on TNT.[/QUOTE]
00 WCF Game 7: 8-12 FT
02 WCF Game 6: 13-17 FT
02 WCF Game 7: 11-15 FT

If you miss as many FT's as Shaq then you self-evidently must have missed some that counted.

Shaq shot less than 30% from the line in the 2006 finals; yes, they won, but not because of him. In several instances Zo was preferred to him in the 4th quarter.

Shaq career elimination games ft shooting:

1994 game 3 vs Indiana - 5/10 - L
1995 game 7 Indiana - 3/11 - W
1995 game 4 Houston - 3/8 - L
1996 game 4 chicago - 6/9 - L
1997 game 5 utah - 5/9 - L
1998 game 4 utah - 10/18 - L
1999 game 4 san antonio - 12/23 - L
2000 game 7 portland - 8/12 - W
2002 game 6 sac - 13/17 - W
2002 game 7 sac - 11/15 - W
2003 game 6 spurs - 5/10 - L
2004 game 5 detroit - 6/16 - L
2005 game 7 detroit - 5/10 - L
2007 game 4 chicago - 0/7 - L
2008 game 4 spurs - 5/10 - W
2008 game 5 spurs - 9/20 - L
2010 game 6 celtics - 3/6 - L
2011 game 5 miami - 0/0 - L

Total: 109/211 = 51.7%
Career shooting: 52.7%

Myth busted.

Those guys are 5 times the player Dwight is so their ft struggles are easier to over look.

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Shaq career elimination games ft shooting:

1994 game 3 vs Indiana - 5/10 - L
1995 game 7 Indiana - 3/11 - W
1995 game 4 Houston - 3/8 - L
1996 game 4 chicago - 6/9 - L
1997 game 5 utah - 5/9 - L
1998 game 4 utah - 10/18 - L
1999 game 4 san antonio - 12/23 - L
2000 game 7 portland - 8/12 - W
2002 game 6 sac - 13/17 - W
2002 game 7 sac - 11/15 - W
2003 game 6 spurs - 5/10 - L
2004 game 5 detroit - 6/16 - L
2005 game 7 detroit - 5/10 - L
2007 game 4 chicago - 0/7 - L
2008 game 4 spurs - 5/10 - W
2008 game 5 spurs - 9/20 - L
2010 game 6 celtics - 3/6 - L
2011 game 5 miami - 0/0 - L

Total: 109/211 = 51.7%
Career shooting: 52.7%

Myth busted.[/QUOTE]

At what point of the game did he make them tho?

I think that

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Shaq career elimination games ft shooting:

1994 game 3 vs Indiana - 5/10 - L
1995 game 7 Indiana - 3/11 - W
1995 game 4 Houston - 3/8 - L
1996 game 4 chicago - 6/9 - L
1997 game 5 utah - 5/9 - L
1998 game 4 utah - 10/18 - L
1999 game 4 san antonio - 12/23 - L
2000 game 7 portland - 8/12 - W
2002 game 6 sac - 13/17 - W
2002 game 7 sac - 11/15 - W
2003 game 6 spurs - 5/10 - L
2004 game 5 detroit - 6/16 - L
2005 game 7 detroit - 5/10 - L
2007 game 4 chicago - 0/7 - L
2008 game 4 spurs - 5/10 - W
2008 game 5 spurs - 9/20 - L
2010 game 6 celtics - 3/6 - L
2011 game 5 miami - 0/0 - L

Total: 109/211 = 51.7%
Career shooting: 52.7%

Myth busted.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and Kobe isn't clutch either

[QUOTE=andgar923]At what point of the game did he make them tho?

I think that

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Yeah and Kobe isn't clutch either[/QUOTE]
Huh?

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]The rules back in Russell and Wilt's era were 2 to make 1 and 3 to make 2. Hack-a-whoever wasn't as good an idea as it would be today. Though I'm sure there are examples of it at certain times.[/QUOTE]

Most here were never aware of either of those facts, nor that ALL FTs counted. Another point... they also had single shot FTAs at the time. If a player was fouled while not in the act of shooting, and it occurred in the first five fouls of a quarter, they were awarded a single FT. If they made it it, the other team gained possession, and if they missed it, it was a rebound fight.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]The rules back in Russell and Wilt's era were 2 to make 1 and 3 to make 2. [/QUOTE]
Could you explain this further? I don't get it.

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Could you explain this further? I don't get it.[/QUOTE]
2 to make 1 is: If you get awarded 1 free throw, let's say for an and-1 or something, you only have the potential to earn '1' point out of the situation but you get TWO attempts to make that 1 point. Basically if you missed the first attempt, you were given another try. (but if you made the first attempt, that was your 1 point and a 2nd try wouldn't be necessary)

3 to make 2 is the same concept. Let's say you get fouled in the act of shooting and get an opportunity for two free throws. You could miss the first two attempts completely yet still have a third opportunity to shoot and salvage a point. Or if you missed the first free throw, you'd still shoot two more times so you could still make 2 FT's.

That's why you will often hear Russell telling people who criticized Wilt's free throw shooting % as an exploitable weakness as a "crock of... he'd still make 10-15 of em a game". 3 to make 2 and 2 to make 1 made any 'hack-a-whoever' tactic disadvantageous to the team trying to foul, and they also made any FT shooter an offensive threat at the line even if they shot a low percentage.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]2 to make 1 is: If you get awarded 1 free throw, let's say for an and-1 or something, you only have the potential to earn '1' point out of the situation but you get TWO attempts to make that 1 point. Basically if you missed the first attempt, you were given another try. (but if you made the first attempt, that was your 1 point and a 2nd try wouldn't be necessary)

3 to make 2 is the same concept. Let's say you get fouled in the act of shooting and get an opportunity for two free throws. You could miss the first two attempts completely yet still have a third opportunity to shoot and salvage a point. Or if you missed the first free throw, you'd still shoot two more times so you could still make 2 FT's.[/QUOTE]


I see. Why did they change the rule? Any specific reason/player?

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]I see. Why did they change the rule? Any specific reason/player?[/QUOTE]
No obvious reason as far as I know. Another one that got changed that lasted up until 1969-70 season was that if you rebounded a players missed foul shot and tipped it back in, that point was awarded to the foul shooter, NOT the guy who did the work tipping it or putting it back in - and it was worth only the 1 point of the foul shot! So like, that famous Michael Jordan putback on the foul shot? That would be awarded to Scottie as 1 point - Michael would be given no credit for it :lol

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]question for the old timers

were russell and wilt intentionally fouled a lot?

and if not why not?

Rules or dumb opposing coaches?[/QUOTE]

Chamberlain had many games in the first half of his career in which he shot well. Again, without looking it up, the vast majority of basketball fans would not be aware of the fact that Wilt holds the second greatest season in NBA history in terms of FTs MADE (and is only 5 behind the all-time leader.)

BTW, in Chamberlain's 100 point game, he made 28 out of 32. The 28 is also tied for the all-time record.

Just take a look at the all-time NBA leaders in FTs MADE.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_career.html[/url]

Wilt is at 16th all-time (19th if you include ABA careers.) And ahead of players like Hakeem (who played four more seasons), Barry, Magic, and 2000 more than Bird (who played nearly as many games in his career.) And, while Kareem made more FTs in his career, Wilt averaged about 100 more MADE per season, than KAJ.

Of course the Wilt-bashers will never acknowledge the FACT that Wilt's IMPACT at the FT line went well beyond points scored. His TEAMs generally were either leading the league in FTAs, or were close. His 66-67 76ers just blew away the NBA in that regard (and in the Finals, they crushed the Warriors in that area.)

A case in point... in the 68-69 season, Wilt's Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. And in the post-season they just annihilated their opponents in that stat. Then, the very next season, Wilt was injured early on, and would miss a total of 70 games. LA finished 12th, in a league of 14 teams in FTAs. But, Wilt came back for the post-season, and guess what... LA shot 200 more FTs than the next best team. And they murdered the heavily-favored Knicks in the Finals in that category.

The fact was, Wilt's teammates benefitted dramatically from Chamberlain's IMPACT at the line. They were in the bonus sooner, and shot considerably more FTs because of it. Not only that, but opposing players were reduced to playing with foul trouble, or on the bench because of it. And of course, Wilt and Shaq were probably the greatest "and-one" players of all-time. They scored a TON of their points on what were essentially bonus FTAs because of their physical domination.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]No obvious reason as far as I know. Another one that got changed that lasted up until 1969-70 season was that if you rebounded a players missed foul shot and tipped it back in, that point was awarded to the foul shooter, NOT the guy who did the work tipping it or putting it back in - and it was worth only the 1 point of the foul shot! So like, that famous Michael Jordan putback on the foul shot? That would be awarded to Scottie as 1 point - Michael would be given no credit for it :lol[/QUOTE]
At what point would they deem it a tip in though? Like if u want 2 points you gotta catch it and land back on the floor then put it in? I wonder how many points guys like Wilt and Russell missed out on.

Edit: Also when did they change the rule for the 2 for 1 3 for 2 thing.

Second Edit: Were the players who tipped it in credited with a rebound?

The "anti-Wilt gang" go out of their way to point out Wilt's poor FT post-season games, but they will never acknowledge just how horribly his best teammates, and teammates in general, shot in those post-seasons...

[QUOTE]Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs. [/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.[/QUOTE]


Hell, he won two titles despite his teammates collectively shooting .428 and even .414 from the field. And he nearly won four more despite them shooting .421, .416, .413, and get this... .354!