To contend, or not to contend?

With the state of the east and how great the raps are playing right now, what do ya'll think about going for that 3rd seed?

Going to be very hard to tank and the lowest we would get is 10 even with full on tank, trading Derozan, Lowry and Johnson? If we go for it we can host a playoff game, gain some playoff experience and build a winning culture in the locker room. Who knows, maybe George gets injured for the Pacers or the Heat lose Lebron. They could go to the east final...


Personally, I would still want the tank lol. I want a championship one day and you aren't going to get that without a serious rebuild and good drafting. (unless you're one of the 7 teams that have one a championship over the last 50 years...)

Grantland just had a pretty good article on that.

[URL="http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10218662/the-overhaul-toronto-raptors"]The overhaul of the Toronto Raptors[/URL]

I'd still want the team to tank. But that's obviously not going to happen anymore. Now the road to become a long-term conference contender becomes far more murky and the management will have to work VERY hard to build this team up without the benefit of a good draft pick.

It'll also be interesting what they do with Lowry. If he's not traded, you either probably have to grossly overpay him in free agency to keep him here or let him walk and get nothing. I don't really like either option.

To me the only 2 teams in the east that should have "contend" next to their name are Miami and Indy. Sure we could grab a 3rd seed if things keep going our way but we are still nowhere near the level we would need to contend for a championship. That being said i'm tired of losing and would be thrilled if we got a playoff seed and home court advantage. It's been way too long.

[QUOTE=Too_Cool]With the state of the east and how great the raps are playing right now, what do ya'll think about going for that 3rd seed?

Going to be very hard to tank and the lowest we would get is 10 even with full on tank, trading Derozan, Lowry and Johnson? If we go for it we can host a playoff game, gain some playoff experience and build a winning culture in the locker room. Who knows, maybe George gets injured for the Pacers or the Heat lose Lebron. They could go to the east final...


Personally, I would still want the tank lol. I want a championship one day and you aren't going to get that without a serious rebuild and good drafting. (unless you're one of the 7 teams that have one a championship over the last 50 years...)[/QUOTE]

They're not getting a high pick.

Might as well embrace the winning.

[QUOTE=Qwyjibo]It'll also be interesting what they do with Lowry. If he's not traded, you either probably have to grossly overpay him in free agency to keep him here or let him walk and get nothing. I don't really like either option.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I think if they're not going to tank they need to look at locking him up now... which might be an awkward conversation to have since he was all but traded a month ago.

[QUOTE=RaininThrees]Honestly, I think if they're not going to tank they need to look at locking him up now... which might be an awkward conversation to have since he was all but traded a month ago.[/QUOTE]
I read on some blog (can't remember where) that due to CBA rules on extensions and raises, an extension right now during the season would limit Lowry's years and dollars. Basically, for Lowry, he'll get more money with a new contract if he reaches free agency regardless if it's with Toronto or another team. So there's no incentive for him to sign an extension other than a deep sense of loyalty to the Raptors ( :oldlol: )

To me the options right now are:

1) Trade Lowry. How do you spin trading your, IMO, best player to the casual fanbase? Ujiri's primary job is always to make money for the franchise.

2) Try to re-sign him in free agency. Key word being "try". No guarantees there.

3) Let him walk in free agency and lose an asset for nothing.

[QUOTE=Qwyjibo]I read on some blog (can't remember where) that due to CBA rules on extensions and raises, an extension right now during the season would limit Lowry's years and dollars. Basically, for Lowry, he'll get more money with a new contract if he reaches free agency regardless if it's with Toronto or another team. So there's no incentive for him to sign an extension other than a deep sense of loyalty to the Raptors ( :oldlol: )

To me the options right now are:

1) Trade Lowry. How do you spin trading your, IMO, best player to the casual fanbase? Ujiri's primary job is always to make money for the franchise.

2) Try to re-sign him in free agency. Key word being "try". No guarantees there.

3) Let him walk in free agency and lose an asset for nothing.[/QUOTE]

That seems Bass Ackwards, now doesn't it?

Good points, good points. Yes I suppose we have try and win but do we completely stand pat? I don't want to sign Lowry long term, that's for sure, and sign and trading him isn't a big asset. Just a bad situation...

Johnson is only 26 and is valuable but I would liketo know what he is worth on the trade market right meow as I still think we can take the craplantic and a playoff series with a Jonas/Psycho T/Patterson frontcourt and it has an added bonus of developing Jonas more.

[QUOTE=RaininThrees]Honestly, I think if they're not going to tank they need to look at locking him up now... which might be an awkward conversation to have since he was all but traded a month ago.[/QUOTE]

I don't trust Lowry...

[QUOTE=RaininThrees]That seems Bass Ackwards, now doesn't it?[/QUOTE]

Which option is ass backwards?

I would go with door #1 but the fanbase would erupt as Qwygibo mentioned

[QUOTE=RaininThrees]That seems Bass Ackwards, now doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
Wolstat twitter is where I first read it and there's rules in the CBA limiting the $$ raises for veteran extensions.

[QUOTE]Ryan Wolstat ‏@WolstatSun 29 Dec An e-mailer let me know I can’t read. Forget the Lowry extension stuff. Would include this season, so only be for three extra years[/QUOTE]

I think it was something like only $7 million per over 3 years if he were to agree to an extension. He'll obviously get more on the open market with a brand new contract.

[QUOTE=Too_Cool]Which option is ass backwards?

I would go with door #1 but the fanbase would erupt as Qwygibo mentioned[/QUOTE]

Limiting the amount a player can get from his existing team in an extension seems backwards.

In this case, it'd be bad for the Raps to have to wait (if they want to extend) and then have free market pressures on him.

Also, it's bad for the player.

Assume the scenario:

- Raps want to lock-up Lowry, but can't due to this rule
- Lowry has a Garbajosa-like injury sometime between now and free agency

Obviously the team is saved in this scenario, but the Player has his future security compromised because he wasn't able to lock-up due to some CBA rule.

If the guy wants to sign and the team wants to sign him at agreeable terms, seems silly to not be able to do that.

Woo-hoo! Stuck in no-man's land!

[QUOTE=Grey Dawn]Woo-hoo! Stuck in no-man's land![/QUOTE]

So anything other than 1st seed is "No Man's Land"?

IMO, I feel like coming into the season Masai was praying for either one of two things. Either we completely stink or we make some noise. Prior to the Rudy trade, I feel like Masai thought we were in "No Man's Land", forcing his hand to make a deal. Once the deal was made, he knew it was for better or worse, but was fine with either result.

Lol @ so called fans on here acting like winning leads to a dead end. Whatever road we take will open many opportunities for us, and I think everyone should trust Masai to make the right moves.

If we continue to win, we'll have a solid core to build on with the cap space and picks we have. Also, everyone's value will be at their highest if Masai needs to make a change.

It's not the end of the world guys, enjoy this run because history shows that this Raptors franchise is very unpredictable.

I'd rather be in the playoffs with a chance to win a round than to be a 10 or 11th seed and getting another 9-13 pick.

This season is similar to 06-07 season. This is the best chance for Raptors to get another banner. Do it!

[QUOTE]Lol @ so called fans on here acting like winning leads to a dead end. Whatever road we take will open many opportunities for us, and I think everyone should trust Masai to make the right moves.[/QUOTE]
"I think everyone should trust Colangelo to make the right moves"
- Raptors fans in 2006 (myself included)

I'm not going to dump on Ujiri because he hasn't made a bad move yet (at least with the Raptors) but let's not annoint him some kind of saviour either. We did that once. In the end, Ujiri's job is to generate revenue for the franchise. We still need to see whether that will include building a legit contender. I'd still like to see some kind of long-term plan for the Raptors but I understand we might have to wait until the offseason for that.

[QUOTE=Qwyjibo]"I think everyone should trust Colangelo to make the right moves"
- Raptors fans in 2006 (myself included)

I'm not going to dump on Ujiri because he hasn't made a bad move yet (at least with the Raptors) but let's not annoint him some kind of saviour either. We did that once. In the end, Ujiri's job is to generate revenue for the franchise. We still need to see whether that will include building a legit contender. I'd still like to see some kind of long-term plan for the Raptors but I understand we might have to wait until the offseason for that.[/QUOTE]

I agree. It just annoys me how some fans are quick to jump the gun

[QUOTE=Qwyjibo]Wolstat twitter is where I first read it and there's rules in the CBA limiting the $$ raises for veteran extensions.



I think it was something like only $7 million per over 3 years if he were to agree to an extension. He'll obviously get more on the open market with a brand new contract.[/QUOTE]

Extensions are capped at about 10% raises. So he is probably better off waiting for the off season.

As much as he tells us he's playing his heart out for the Raptors, he's playing for next season, clearly. He's entering his prime years as a basketball player and he wants to secure his financial future as best he can. And I don't blame him for that at all, anyone in his position would do the same. The only issue is, it puts us in somewhat of a bind. To stay with Toronto we'd likely have to pay him handsomely, possible in double digits or close to it for him to stick around. And then you question, is our core really solid enough to justify doing that and where do we go from there?

[QUOTE=bokes15]As much as he tells us he's playing his heart out for the Raptors, he's playing for next season, clearly. He's entering his prime years as a basketball player and he wants to secure his financial future as best he can. And I don't blame him for that at all, anyone in his position would do the same. The only issue is, it puts us in somewhat of a bind. To stay with Toronto we'd likely have to pay him handsomely, possible in double digits or close to it for him to stick around. And then you question, is our core really solid enough to justify doing that and where do we go from there?[/QUOTE]

Word. Lowry, Deroxan Ross, Amir and Jonas is a solid core but probably isn't good enough to compete for a championship.

It's sad that all the fans gets excited just because the team is going to make the playoffs and maybe win a round. Within perhaps an historically bad conference mind you. Poor raptor fans:rockon:

This is what happens when you have two of the worst GM performances ever back to back. Meanwhile, smart teams like Orlando, Philly and Boston blew it up to compete [B]long term[/B].

[QUOTE=Too_Cool]

1) Word. Lowry, Deroxan Ross, Amir and Jonas is a solid core but probably isn't good enough to compete for a championship.

2) It's sad that all the fans gets excited just because the team is going to make the playoffs and maybe win a round. Within perhaps an historically bad conference mind you. Poor raptor fans:rockon:

3) This is what happens when you have two of the worst GM performances ever back to back. Meanwhile, smart teams like Orlando, Philly and Boston blew it up to compete [B]long term[/B].[/QUOTE]

Counterpoint

1) Agree although if compensated appropriately they form a really good nuclues of talent ; lets see what MU can do with 3 1st round draft picks in the next two years.

2) Totally agree. Toronto is starved for success.

3) Agree although... we still have 3 draft picks next 2 years. In fact to the exact current example of "tanking to win" :

i) the Thunder totally tanked and drafted 3 all stars in three years.. Durant Westbrooke Harden.

ii) The Cavs are still not going anywhere.

So the "total tank" isnt always perfect.

Success is also about the number of draft picks and equally important the number of "midling" contracts you can shift around to improve.

Note that those 3 picks I keep throwing out as of now would project as 18th, 8th, 18th for arguement sake.