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Then nothing. He has better stats.
[QUOTE=navy]Then nothing. He has better stats.[/QUOTE]
Is that all that matters? :biggums:
Howard is better than Noah.
[QUOTE=SHABBA]Is that all that matters? :biggums:[/QUOTE]
Better stats, better record, tougher conference, better player.
:confusedshrug: I dont care either way as long as Roy Hibbery is nowhere near the list.
[QUOTE=navy]:confusedshrug: I dont care either way as long as Roy Hibbery is nowhere near the list.[/QUOTE]
:cheers:
Noah, Howard and Big Al should be the All-NBA Cs in some order.
[QUOTE=navy]Better stats, better record, tougher conference, better player.
:confusedshrug: I dont care either way as long as Roy Hibbery is nowhere near the list.[/QUOTE]
Noah doesn't really have any claim to be first team all nba over Howard. Dwight has the better stats, a better record in a much tougher conference and it's debatable whether Noah is even better defensively. He leads the league in drating and defensive win shares, but the problem with that is that those stats aren't exclusively singular. Good defense starts with the COACH. Thibs has always had a strong foundation. You can build a good team defense overall even if the players you have aren't stellar. The defense's Dwight anchored in Orlando were not stocked full of defensive studs, but Stan is a defensive coach and made it so they could maximize Howard's impact even when not one other player could really be called more than an average defensive player at his BEST.
He was coming back from a back injury and dealing with that tear in his shoulder for most of the season with the Lakers and D'antoni basically had no concept of defense. NOW on the Rockets you could say its even worse as the guys that surround him are probably the worst defensive players he's ever played with and Mchale (who was a good defensive player in his days ironically) has showed no know how of how to run a defense nor hold any of his players accountable. Harden and Parson's who lead the team in minutes are the two worst offenders of all...but nobody actually does anything regularly that would be called good defense, but howard. That they are even ranked 13th in defensive rating is a miracle considering Howard is being given absolutely no help by his coach instilling a defensive to work around him or playing with players who bother putting up any effort most of the time.
Noah is having a great defensive season, but he's also playing for Thibodeau who knows how to maximize the effectiveness of a team defensively and knows how to run a defense. It doesn't hurt that the Bulls have a lot of players that are at their worst decent defenders and even an average defender can be made into a good one as far as the ENTIRETY of the team is concerned in a good system. Pace has a big reason why the Bulls are good too. Almost every good defensive team is always at the bottom end in pace. The bulls are 28th in pace this year...the Rockets are 5th and were 1 last year. You would think with adding Dwight you want want to slow it down more and allow him to be the defensive force he can be, but that's a lot harder when you are always running and gunning and taking long jump shots that make long rebounds and make it easy for the opposing team to get back on offense and get off a good shot. Dwight hasn't a coach the last two years that seems to know anything about how to run a competent team defense.
lol @ this. Dwight is the best center in the NBA by far.
[QUOTE=navy]Better stats, better record, tougher conference, better player.
:confusedshrug: I dont care either way as long as Roy Hibbery is nowhere near the list.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="White"]this[/COLOR]
take howard off the rockets and they would still have a great team and be competing for the playoffs in the west....
take noah off the bulls and they would be last in the league....
noah deserves it over howard
[QUOTE=selrahc]take howard off the rockets and they would still have a great team and be competing for the playoffs in the west....
take noah off the bulls and they would be last in the league....
noah deserves it over howard[/QUOTE]
Rockets wouldn't get in the playoffs if they were the same team from last year... lol
We won 45 games last year. Those many wins wouldn't get us in the playoffs. This year with Howard, the Rockets are 54-27 with 1 game left.
The Rockets have a better record than the Bulls, but Dwight has a much better team around him than Noah. Bulls lost a former MVP and their best scorer to injury, and then traded away a two time all star and their next best scorer. Yet they have still managed a very good record and a top 4 seed.
Harden is an amazing scorer, and whether it is fair or not, he gets the calls. Noah just isn't playing with anyone as good Harden (this year).
The Bull's offense runs through Noah at times, Dwight doesn't have the kind of importance to his team. Plus Howard has weaknesses that Noah doesn't have, like free horrible throw shooting. Noah also has better intangibles like attitude and energy.
[QUOTE=Ethem]The Rockets have a better record than the Bulls, but Dwight has a much better team around him than Noah. Bulls lost a former MVP and their best scorer to injury, and then traded away a two time all star and their next best scorer. Yet they have still managed a very good record and a top 4 seed.
Harden is an amazing scorer, and whether it is fair or not, he gets the calls. Noah just isn't playing with anyone as good Harden (this year).
The Bull's offense runs through Noah at times, Dwight doesn't have the kind of importance to his team. Plus Howard has weaknesses that Noah doesn't have, like free horrible throw shooting. Noah also has better intangibles like attitude and energy.[/QUOTE]
Not to get into the who deserves what award debate... but when the hell has attitude or energy been a problem in Houston?
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Noah doesn't really have any claim to be first team all nba over Howard. Dwight has the better stats, a better record in a much tougher conference and it's debatable whether Noah is even better defensively. He leads the league in drating and defensive win shares, but the problem with that is that those stats aren't exclusively singular. Good defense starts with the COACH. Thibs has always had a strong foundation. You can build a good team defense overall even if the players you have aren't stellar. The defense's Dwight anchored in Orlando were not stocked full of defensive studs, but Stan is a defensive coach and made it so they could maximize Howard's impact even when not one other player could really be called more than an average defensive player at his BEST.
He was coming back from a back injury and dealing with that tear in his shoulder for most of the season with the Lakers and D'antoni basically had no concept of defense. NOW on the Rockets you could say its even worse as the guys that surround him are probably the worst defensive players he's ever played with and Mchale (who was a good defensive player in his days ironically) has showed no know how of how to run a defense nor hold any of his players accountable. Harden and Parson's who lead the team in minutes are the two worst offenders of all...but nobody actually does anything regularly that would be called good defense, but howard. That they are even ranked 13th in defensive rating is a miracle considering Howard is being given absolutely no help by his coach instilling a defensive to work around him or playing with players who bother putting up any effort most of the time.
Noah is having a great defensive season, but he's also playing for Thibodeau who knows how to maximize the effectiveness of a team defensively and knows how to run a defense. It doesn't hurt that the Bulls have a lot of players that are at their worst decent defenders and even an average defender can be made into a good one as far as the ENTIRETY of the team is concerned in a good system. Pace has a big reason why the Bulls are good too. Almost every good defensive team is always at the bottom end in pace. The bulls are 28th in pace this year...the Rockets are 5th and were 1 last year. You would think with adding Dwight you want want to slow it down more and allow him to be the defensive force he can be, but that's a lot harder when you are always running and gunning and taking long jump shots that make long rebounds and make it easy for the opposing team to get back on offense and get off a good shot. Dwight hasn't a coach the last two years that seems to know anything about how to run a competent team defense.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't have said it better myself. One of the best comments I've ever seen on this site.
Big Al needs some recognition here 22/11 is no joke
This bobcats team isn't exactly stacked either
Josh mcroberts starts at PF
[QUOTE=YouGotServed]lol @ this. Dwight is the best center in the NBA by far.[/QUOTE]
this guy is posting this sh1t [B]in 2014![/B]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Noah doesn't really have any claim to be first team all nba over Howard. Dwight has the better stats, a better record in a much tougher conference and it's debatable whether Noah is even better defensively. He leads the league in drating and defensive win shares, but the problem with that is that those stats aren't exclusively singular. Good defense starts with the COACH. Thibs has always had a strong foundation. You can build a good team defense overall even if the players you have aren't stellar. The defense's Dwight anchored in Orlando were not stocked full of defensive studs, but Stan is a defensive coach and made it so they could maximize Howard's impact even when not one other player could really be called more than an average defensive player at his BEST.
He was coming back from a back injury and dealing with that tear in his shoulder for most of the season with the Lakers and D'antoni basically had no concept of defense. NOW on the Rockets you could say its even worse as the guys that surround him are probably the worst defensive players he's ever played with and Mchale (who was a good defensive player in his days ironically) has showed no know how of how to run a defense nor hold any of his players accountable. Harden and Parson's who lead the team in minutes are the two worst offenders of all...but nobody actually does anything regularly that would be called good defense, but howard. That they are even ranked 13th in defensive rating is a miracle considering Howard is being given absolutely no help by his coach instilling a defensive to work around him or playing with players who bother putting up any effort most of the time.
Noah is having a great defensive season, but he's also playing for Thibodeau who knows how to maximize the effectiveness of a team defensively and knows how to run a defense. It doesn't hurt that the Bulls have a lot of players that are at their worst decent defenders and even an average defender can be made into a good one as far as the ENTIRETY of the team is concerned in a good system. Pace has a big reason why the Bulls are good too. Almost every good defensive team is always at the bottom end in pace. The bulls are 28th in pace this year...the Rockets are 5th and were 1 last year. You would think with adding Dwight you want want to slow it down more and allow him to be the defensive force he can be, but that's a lot harder when you are always running and gunning and taking long jump shots that make long rebounds and make it easy for the opposing team to get back on offense and get off a good shot. Dwight hasn't a coach the last two years that seems to know anything about how to run a competent team defense.[/QUOTE]
From an all-nba perspective I can agree with dwight taking it but from a defensive perspective in today's game it'd be a crime for noah to NOT take dpoy.
I actually agree with you that many stats are team/coach influenced but if you look at the impact of both players you would see that noah can D pnr/pnp extraordinarily, that he can check isos with guys like lebron/pierce when he must switch, that he double teams effectively, that he doesn't go for highlight plays (e.g dwight blocks), that he always boxes out, ... all these things and more.
If those things were counted the differences would be huge.
Damn! Noah is actually getting overrated here.
[QUOTE=swagga]From an all-nba perspective I can agree with dwight taking it but from a defensive perspective in today's game it'd be a crime for noah to NOT take dpoy.
I actually agree with you that many stats are team/coach influenced but if you look at the impact of both players you would see that noah can D pnr/pnp extraordinarily, that he can check isos with guys like lebron/pierce when he must switch, that he double teams effectively, that he doesn't go for highlight plays (e.g dwight blocks), that he always boxes out, ... all these things and more.
If those things were counted the differences would be huge.[/QUOTE]
That's not true at all the simple answer is: The Magic. You are trying to count these things Noah does as if Dwight doesn't. Dwight Howard during his best years defensively on the Magic was MUCH MORE DOMINANT than Noah is this season and he was putting his team regularly at one of the top spots defensively with worse defensive players around him. How do you come to the conclusion that Noah can check isos with guys like lebron/pierce and Howard can't/couldn't? Whatever people want to say about his actual skill as a basketball player offensively, Dwight has always had a good understanding of the game from a defensive standpoint. Howard is now past his prime (while still very athletic), but that is absurd to think that Noah could guard a guy like Lebron/Pierce better than Howard can when Howard in his prime is much quicker, faster, and explosive.
All these things you are saying Noah does well and implying Dwight doesn't is a joke. Dwight has always done everything well that a man with his amazing athleticism and feel for defense can. Dwight on the lakers was visibly frustrated with Laker players not switching on who they should be and not being in the spots they should be more than once last season. He knows what he is about when it comes to playing defense even if he never has grasped the game of basketball as far as being an inside scorer goes. Not everybody can be a Scottie Pippen, Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett...players that have super elite basketball IQ's and understand every single aspect of the game. Dwight and even more so Ben Wallace are really underrated during their best defensive years. They at their best were just much more dominant than a Duncan or Garnett. That's nothing I'm saying bad about Duncan or Garnett, but the singular force's that Dwight and especially Ben Wallace were when they were in their defensive prime is incredibly overlooked. If someone asked me right now who were the absolute BEST defensive players from 1980 to the present time...and i'm I'm not talking about how great he was at this or that position...the fact of the matter is A BIG MAN JUST MAKES A BIGGER IMPACT DEFENSIVELY, so by simple definition of the impact you make...you are the best. So then:
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. David Robinson
3. Ben Wallace
4,5,6. Dwight Howard
4,5,6. Kevin Garnett
4,5,6. Tim Duncan
7. Scottie Pippen
8. Michael Jordan
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Jason Kidd
I Put Howard, Garnett, and Duncan that way because Garnett and Duncan just have a major longevity advantage on Howard...but I don't believe either were ever as dominant as he was at each respective's peaks. Their possible claims over him are that they've done it for more years as of now, but Dwight can be named with them because at each's most effective, Dwight would come out on top.
[QUOTE=TMac&Luther]Not to get into the who deserves what award debate... but when the hell has attitude or energy been a problem in Houston?[/QUOTE]
Never said it was, just said Noah has more than Howard. That should be fairly obvious. Intangibles like attitude and energy are more important when a team faces adversity, which the Bulls did this year. People often overlook that in favor of only stats.
i can name 4 centers that had better seasons than howard THIS season....anthony davis,noah,cousins,and al jefferson.
i expect howard to at least make the second team...no way he make first tho..id really like to see one of the other centers make the second and have howard on the third but i understand politics play a big part so he will prolly make the second team