A year ago you wouldn't trade Felton for Wroten.
Right now would you trade hardaway jr or shumpert for him?
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A year ago you wouldn't trade Felton for Wroten.
Right now would you trade hardaway jr or shumpert for him?
[QUOTE=el gringos]A year ago you wouldn't trade Felton for Wroten.
Right now would you trade hardaway jr or shumpert for him?[/QUOTE]
[B]What does he bring to the table that he is better than or equal to shumpert or hardaway?[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]What does he bring to the table that he is better than or equal to shumpert or hardaway?[/B][/QUOTE]
Hard away - rebounding, playmaking, dribbling, getting to the basket
Shumpert- playmaking, ball handling
Big difference overall- wroten is a gaurd, the others wings
[QUOTE=el gringos]Hard away - rebounding, playmaking, dribbling, getting to the basket
Shumpert- playmaking, ball handling
Big difference overall- wroten is a gaurd, the others wings[/QUOTE]
[B]I am not going to disagree or agree with your analysis. I just dont see much upside with this guy Wroten other than his athleticism. I am all for moving any player but I am curious to see what Shump brings to the table this year before I completely jump off his bandwagon.[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek]I am curious to see what _________ brings to the table this year before I completely jump off his bandwagon.[/B][/QUOTE]
Nice- same strategy used w amare and chandler. Always best to kill the value before trying to deal.
I think teams could see hard away and shun pert as having starter value now
[QUOTE=el gringos]Nice- same strategy used w amare and chandler. Always best to kill the value before trying to deal.
I think teams could see hard away and shun pert as having starter value now[/QUOTE]
[B]You have to be kidding. You are acting like the Knicks are developing players just to trade them. This is not how basketball works.
Probably unbeknownst to you the intention was to build a squad whether you agree or disagree with the method and results.
Most trades occur to acquire stars or potential stars, dump to increase the percentages of winning the ping pong lottery, add a piece to make a run in the playoffs or increase home attendance. It is no longer to get cap space.
So to move Shump or Hardaway for a player like Wroten is kind of sideways in value or slightly + or - in potential.
[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]You have to be kidding. You are acting like the Knicks are developing players just to trade them. This is not how basketball works.
Probably unbeknownst to you the intention was to build a squad whether you agree or disagree with the method and results.
Most trades occur to acquire stars or potential stars, dump to increase the percentages of winning the ping pong lottery, add a piece to make a run in the playoffs or increase home attendance. It is no longer to get cap space.
So to move Shump or Hardaway for a player like Wroten is kind of sideways in value or slightly + or - in potential.
[/B][/QUOTE]
How do you get a pg if not by trade? Wroten is not perfect (doesn't have an outside shot). But this team had major weakness at coach and pg. Coach will improve but if pg isn't improved it's another wasted season if it's Felton and prigioni
If you can buy low and sell high that is how you succeed in business. Hardaway jr was got with a late 1st round pick. If you can turn that into a starter it's a win.
[QUOTE=el gringos]How do you get a pg if not by trade? Wroten is not perfect (doesn't have an outside shot). But this team had major weakness at coach and pg. Coach will improve but if pg isn't improved it's another wasted season if it's Felton and prigioni[/QUOTE]
[B]Wroten isnt a PG though. There is this thing around the summertime called a DRAFT.[/B]
I dont mind a hypothetical, but why would Philly give him up?
he played well for them and is still on his rookie deal.
[QUOTE=knickscity]I dont mind a hypothetical, but why would Philly give him up?
he played well for them and is still on his rookie deal.[/QUOTE]
You're prob right, I would think they might move him if they want to fill their 2 spot if they ghet embiid or Parker.
Reality is Memphis moved him for almost nothing. A deal even the Knicks had the ammo and the need. Then philly played him and was very good especially during stretches as a starter. I just remember hearing here that the Knicks wouldn't want to give up a proven player like Felton for him.
Switch the hypothetical to Felton + 2 2nds for wroten. Maybe Philly plans to tank another few years. Felton could be perfect for them. As long as they don't get Parker they aren't getting any better
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]Wroten isnt a PG though. There is this thing around the summertime called a DRAFT.[/B][/QUOTE]
Too bad you weren't willing to throw out any ideas on who could be had in the draft with a pick you could buy. Nick Johnson from Arizona or that elfrid Payton IMO
But yeah he is an nba pg.
[QUOTE=el gringos]But yeah he is an nba pg.[/QUOTE]
Have you seen him play? He had a handdul of effective games but it wasnt from the PG position.
Ive never begrudged your creativity in regards to possible acquusitions.
[QUOTE=el gringos]You're prob right, I would think they might move him if they want to fill their 2 spot if they ghet embiid or Parker. [/quote]
Wroten played the 2 exclusively with Philly...MCW started all the games at point.
[QUOTE=el gringos]Reality is Memphis moved him for almost nothing. A deal even the Knicks had the ammo and the need. Then philly played him and was very good especially during stretches as a starter. [B]I just remember hearing here that the Knicks wouldn't want to give up a proven player like Felton for him.[/B] [/quote] I havent heard that from anywhere. I'd like a link to it.
[QUOTE=el gringos]Switch the hypothetical to Felton + 2 2nds for wroten. Maybe Philly plans to tank another few years. Felton could be perfect for them. As long as they don't get Parker they aren't getting any better[/QUOTE]
Are you endorsing giving up draft picks for him?
Wroten has played nice for Philly but he was their 2 guard. He's not really a full time pg and this diving up draft picks in every trade has to end.
[QUOTE=el gringos]Too bad you weren't willing to throw out any ideas on who could be had in the draft with a pick you could buy. Nick Johnson from Arizona or that elfrid Payton IMO[/QUOTE]
[B]I want a coach first....
Should I just throw out a list of names of people that I think should be on the Knicks?
Even better just put Amare and or Chandler plus Shump and Hardaway and a 2018 draft pick next each players name?:lol [/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]I want a coach first....
Should I just throw out a list of names of people that I think should be on the Knicks?
Even better just put Amare and or Chandler plus Shump and Hardaway and a 2018 draft pick next each players name?:lol [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah you should. I know you think you are being funny but it's more pathetic than anything. Here's the deal- you can't hurt my feelings, this is not the real world to me. I can't lose money based on a reputation from the name el gringos.
If I was scared to put my thoughts out there or if I didn't have any I wouldn't use my free time criticizing others. That's a waste.
Just from the change in your posting from a year ago to now makes me worry you've had a rough time or maybe on drugs. You used to be one of the people here that promoted open discussion. Now you are hellbent on going the opposite direction.
The individuals on a team do not dictate to strength of the roster. Just the record. Does that make you feel better
[QUOTE=el gringos]Yeah you should. I know you think you are being funny but it's more pathetic than anything. Here's the deal- you can't hurt my feelings, this is not the real world to me. I can't lose money based on a reputation from the name el gringos.
If I was scared to put my thoughts out there or if I didn't have any I wouldn't use my free time criticizing others. That's a waste.
Just from the change in your posting from a year ago to now makes me worry you've had a rough time or maybe on drugs. You used to be one of the people here that promoted open discussion. Now you are hellbent on going the opposite direction.
The individuals on a team do not dictate to strength of the roster. Just the record. Does that make you feel better[/QUOTE]
[B]I'm in full support of your creativity.... Always have and always will be!
Will quote myself....[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek]Have you seen him play? He had a handdul of effective games but it wasnt from the PG position.
Ive never begrudged your creativity in regards to possible acquusitions.[/QUOTE]
[B]Nothing is ever personal and everyone has a right to post anything they choose that isnt too rude.
I like my sexy self too much to do drugs:lol
Their are somethings we will inherently disagree with. When you want to change a player from one position to PG at every turn. Again its still your right to have that opinion whether we agree or not.
Keep doing what you're doing.
I have no issue with it. For example... You want Wroten at PG well he didnt play PG he was the SG and he was not that good at it on a team that was tanking there was absolutely no pressure for success. This doesnt mean he cant improve though. Considering its only James Anderson and Wroten at SG for the 6ers the likelihood of him being moved at his payscale is slim to none.
Consider they will probably get Wiggins, Embiid, Parker they arent even remotely close to being legit. MCW, Anderson, Noel 2014 top 3 pick. If anything I would see them trying to move Thadeus Young to complete the youth movement.
Now if you want to say would I trade someone like Shump for Young oh hell yeah.[/B]
[B]I would love to see what coach comes in and is it a foregone conclusion that it will be a triangle system? But I'm on board with acquiring Love but we just dont have what they want stranger things has happened.[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]I want a coach first....
Should I just throw out a list of names of people that I think should be on the Knicks?
Even better just put Amare and or Chandler plus Shump and Hardaway and a 2018 draft pick next each players name?:lol [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll bet my hat it's gonna be Fisher - I've been feeling this all along.
I NEVER take this "Gringos" guy seriously - he wants to keep Bargnani and give away Hardaway and Shump ALL the time. It's not even creative... just like that "Knicksfever" guy who acts like he gives a shit and posts the most incredulous things.
I'm totally on board with getting a coach first. I don't believe PJ is gonna preach the Triangle like everyone else seems to feel. That's old school and I believe he has other ideas if he was even willing to take this job. I'm actually glad the West closed out last night so they can get down to getting a deal for Fish done; that's how strongly I feel on this.
[QUOTE=smoovegittar]I'll bet my hat it's gonna be Fisher - I've been feeling this all along.
I NEVER take this "Gringos" guy seriously - he wants to keep Bargnani and give away Hardaway and Shump ALL the time. It's not even creative... just like that "Knicksfever" guy who acts like he gives a shit and posts the most incredulous things.
I'm totally on board with getting a coach first. I don't believe PJ is gonna preach the Triangle like everyone else seems to feel. That's old school and I believe he has other ideas if he was even willing to take this job. I'm actually glad the West closed out last night so they can get down to getting a deal for Fish done; that's how strongly I feel on this.[/QUOTE]
Makes no logical sense at all to hire fisher if implementing the triangle isn't part of the deal.
Don't take me serious- good idea.
I've had very few opinions (even if I have repeated them many times). And maybe I wasn't right.
As soon as Carmelo went to the Knicks I said trade Amare
2 years ago I said trade chandler
I said Dragic would be worth moving chandler and shumpert for.
I said The Knicks would get bargnani because of how well he's fit next to Carmelo. Check the article about the first days of practice. It was about how much chemistry they had with each other. You sure wouldn't want to blame that not showing through on the worst coach/pg group in the league right?
Now I'm telling you that maybe you could get starter type value out of hardaway. But go ahead and don't pay attention to that. Can't find the fool willing to overpay for Hardaway when he stares at you in mirrors.
It's Ok for you to believe what you want, all I'm trying to do is put out the idea of doing something before it's too late. Just like the Obama sticker on the back of the car your parents bought you. Looked cool at one time because he's the greatest television star of all time. But now it makes you look dumb.
You have the team you wanted. It wouldn't take much to see that you'd rather have the team I wanted.
[B]Get over yourself you're not prophetic :rolleyes: [/B]
[QUOTE=el gringos]Makes no logical sense at all to hire fisher if implementing the triangle isn't part of the deal.
Don't take me serious- good idea.
I've had very few opinions (even if I have repeated them many times). And maybe I wasn't right.
As soon as Carmelo went to the Knicks I said trade Amare
2 years ago I said trade chandler
I said Dragic would be worth moving chandler and shumpert for.
I said The Knicks would get bargnani because of how well he's fit next to Carmelo. Check the article about the first days of practice. It was about how much chemistry they had with each other. You sure wouldn't want to blame that not showing through on the worst coach/pg group in the league right?
Now I'm telling you that maybe you could get starter type value out of hardaway. But go ahead and don't pay attention to that. Can't find the fool willing to overpay for Hardaway when he stares at you in mirrors.
It's Ok for you to believe what you want, all I'm trying to do is put out the idea of doing something before it's too late. Just like the Obama sticker on the back of the car your parents bought you. Looked cool at one time because he's the greatest television star of all time. But now it makes you look dumb.
You have the team you wanted. It wouldn't take much to see that you'd rather have the team I wanted.[/QUOTE]
Just luckier than hell. Maybe Hardaway will all of a sudden begin to rebound, pass, and defend
[QUOTE=el gringos]Just luckier than hell. Maybe Hardaway will all of a sudden begin to rebound, pass, and defend[/QUOTE]
[B]Keep your creativity but until you really start to understand how trades works especially in the NBA you can throw many unrealistic ideas out there. It doesnt matter if anyone ever takes you seriously either but posting is a way of venting/having fun even though no one would care.[/B]
I said my piece on Wroten, I'll let yall have it. :roll:
[QUOTE=el gringos]Makes no logical sense at all to hire fisher if implementing the triangle isn't part of the deal.
I stopped considering here, right at the start. A monkey with crayons can be creative as well. You've had an erection for Bargnani for the last 2 years. I consider him to be one of the key reasons we went into a tailspin. There was no way in Hell he was going to co-exist with Carmelo. You consistently want to trade away our youth for older, middle of the pack players who really have nothing to offer. Unlike some of us here, I don't want to trade everyone away. I like Hardaway jr. and Shumpert. Neither have been coached very well. I say keep them until 2015... they can only improve under an improved system.
I want Fisher for previous stated reasons:
He commands respect from other players.
He ran the point for PJ and a current contender in OKC.
He knows how to handle "Diva" players - such as the ones we may acquire in free agency in 2015.
He is a PJ guy who will know what is expected from him.
...and no, I don't believe the antiquated Triangle system will be implemented in the Garden.
for the record, I'm 49 years old. Daddy did not get me an Obama sticker. Such a comment reduces any credibility you have in maintaining a lucid conversation, but that's your loss, Mr. Whitebread.
Cheers! :hammerhead:
[QUOTE=smoovegittar][QUOTE=el gringos]Makes no logical sense at all to hire fisher if implementing the triangle isn't part of the deal.
I stopped considering here, right at the start. A monkey with crayons can be creative as well. You've had an erection for Bargnani for the last 2 years. I consider him to be one of the key reasons we went into a tailspin. There was no way in Hell he was going to co-exist with Carmelo. You consistently want to trade away our youth for older, middle of the pack players who really have nothing to offer. Unlike some of us here, I don't want to trade everyone away. I like Hardaway jr. and Shumpert. Neither have been coached very well. I say keep them until 2015... they can only improve under an improved system.
I want Fisher for previous stated reasons:
He commands respect from other players.
He ran the point for PJ and a current contender in OKC.
He knows how to handle "Diva" players - such as the ones we may acquire in free agency in 2015.
He is a PJ guy who will know what is expected from him.
...and no, I don't believe the antiquated Triangle system will be implemented in the Garden.
for the record, I'm 49 years old. Daddy did not get me an Obama sticker. Such a comment reduces any credibility you have in maintaining a lucid conversation, but that's your loss, Mr. Whitebread.
Cheers! :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
Yeah the Obama comment had no place here. I'm live and work in parts of the country where everybody works. So I always assume anyone saying idiotic things is part of this group we are all supporting financially. Maybe that's not you. I shouldn't assume it is.
I can't back away from the idiotic part that led me to this conclusion. Derek fisher has proven nothing as a coach. And if he isn't implementing the triangle then there is no reason to have him.
That isn't and antiquated offense. It's something coaches either don't have the time or are scared to implement.
Your knowledge of the game is shown with your belief that Carmelo and bargnani can't coexist. They compliment each other's games perfectly. The problem was Woodson/Felton/chandler.
A real coach and a gaurd and you will see that an inside out sf and an outside in big is a good mix. But when your offense is built around its two worst offensive players believing that their pick and roll is option number 1 and your coach is too dumb to figure out how to use his players you get what you get.
But you proved my point, you want to wait for someone's value to drop and then consider moving them.
An actual system should help the best players more than the role players. Carmelo, jr, and bargnani will get better opportunity. The role players will have similar opportunity in any offense because they still get theirs due to lack of defensive attention. Teams will still let the hardaway and shumperts of the world try to beat then because they will continue to focus on the carmelo, jr; and bargnani's.
[QUOTE=el gringos]
Your knowledge of the game is shown with your belief that Carmelo and bargnani can't coexist. They compliment each other's games perfectly. The problem was Woodson/Felton/chandler.
[/QUOTE]
I would like to hear how does Melo and Bargnani's games compliment perfectly.
But as a a word of caution, lay low on the question folks knowledge of the game.
I seriously raise my eyebrows everytime you even mention Bargnani.
I cant imagine a guy who doesnt defend except when planted in the restricted area, doesnt rebound or pass, looks lost and disinterested...hell doesnt even shoot all that well is a perfect compliment.
[B]Bargs is an inconsequential player.
I wonder why the Spurs dont trade away their young talent for mediocre role players. Oh they dont they teach them how to be basketball players another words develop them.
It's about time for the Knicks to teach their players how to become better. It starts with the FO that bring in the right clay and the coaching staff to mold it. The Knicks have not had a teaching coach outside of Van Gundy and Larry Brown.
Again Gringos I keep giving examples of how most trades in the NBA work and you dont seem to have a grasp of that concept. [/B]
[B]Do not get me wrong there is not one single player on this roster that is untradeable but there has only been 2 players the past 2 years that was allowed to "eat" they are JR and Melo. Once the team finds a coach and I pray there is some kind of system then maybe something get turned around or they look for pieces that will fit the system.[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]Do not get me wrong there is not one single player on this roster that is untradeable but there has only been 2 players the past 2 years that was allowed to "eat" they are JR and Melo. Once the team finds a coach and I pray there is some kind of system then maybe something get turned around or they look for pieces that will fit the system.[/B][/QUOTE]
Allowed? Or did you mean able to? You don't realize Felton and Chandler were allowed to consider themselves the 1st 2 options on offense and had free reign to play however they wanted with no thought at all about being role players
Carmelo and jr get negative points from you because they are the only ones who could do anything with no structure at all and nobody willing to be a role player.
[QUOTE=el gringos]Allowed? Or did you mean able to? You don't realize Felton and Chandler were allowed to consider themselves the 1st 2 options on offense and had free reign to play however they wanted with no thought at all about being role players
Carmelo and jr get negative points from you because they are the only ones who could do anything with no structure at all and nobody willing to be a role player.[/QUOTE]
[B]Did I say anyone had negative points. I said once D'Antoni left it was the Melo JR show and force fed Stat when he was healthy. You dont win and its difficult to score enough points with this system. Players have to be put in to situations where they are successful.
Chandler and Felton was never allowed to consider themselves 1st and 2nd options. Did they force the issue of course but thats because the team lacked an offensive system and the ball movement was atrocious and it was moved to go back to the same players. [/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek][B]Did I say anyone had negative points. I said once D'Antoni left it was the Melo JR show and force fed Stat when he was healthy. You dont win and its difficult to score enough points with this system. Players have to be put in to situations where they are successful.
Chandler and Felton was never allowed to consider themselves 1st and 2nd options. Did they force the issue of course but thats because the team lacked an offensive system and the ball movement was atrocious and it was moved to go back to the same players. [/B][/QUOTE]
So we agree. Felton and Chandler had all the free reign they wanted. They just don't have the same ability to make something happen in a situation with absolutely no structure.
[QUOTE=el gringos]So we agree. Felton and Chandler had all the free reign they wanted. They just don't have the same ability to make something happen in a situation with absolutely no structure.[/QUOTE]
[B]No they called there own number so they can get involved in the game. The offense wasnt structured to get the most out of the teams talents it was structured for Melo and JR to shoot.
You have 5 NBA men on the floor but everyone else has to stand around or do everything to get Melo and JR shots. Thats not basketball. That's an AI offense.[/B]
[QUOTE=Rameek]The offense wasnt structured to get the most out of the teams talents it was structured for Melo and JR to shoot.
You have 5 NBA men on the floor but everyone else has to stand around or do everything to get Melo and JR shots. Thats not basketball. That's an AI offense.[/B][/QUOTE]
What kind of structure was set up for those 2 guys. I'm trying to learn so was hoping you could give some examples of things the others on the court did to get them shots?
It was the actual system and plan huh. When Felton and chandler did it it was taking things into their own hands, but w Carmelo and jr it was planned?
It's ok to dislike some of the players, but it gets confusing when you have to bend your statements all around to make the point clear. For the guys you like it was the system being wrong or not getting a chance. For the 3 you don't like its that they are just terrible players. You can't have it both ways. Never mind, of course you can.
[QUOTE=el gringos]What kind of structure was set up for those 2 guys. I'm trying to learn so was hoping you could give some examples of things the others on the court did to get them shots?
It was the actual system and plan huh. When Felton and chandler did it it was taking things into their own hands, but w Carmelo and jr it was planned?
It's ok to dislike some of the players, but it gets confusing when you have to bend your statements all around to make the point clear. For the guys you like it was the system being wrong or not getting a chance. For the 3 you don't like its that they are just terrible players. You can't have it both ways. Never mind, of course you can.[/QUOTE]
[B]Its not about dislike or like. Its the reality. The offense was run through those 2 guys. Who takes all the shots they do. So you pass the ball around to get back to them to shoot or they come down and get the ball and shoot. Its just the facts. Felton and Chandler did take bad shots it was made more dramatic because you know who is going to shoot. That isnt a player fault thats a coaching fault.
When D'Antoni was here everyone had a chance to eat and they were winning pretty happy campers. The Knicks went on that 18 win early start 2 years ago everyone was eating happy campers.
Winning cures all ills though.[/B]