The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

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[B][SIZE="8"][FONT="Garamond"]The GOAT List:
Fifth Anniversary Edition[/FONT] [/SIZE][/B]

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[SIZE="3"]It's the off-season and this years list is as ready as it's going to be. There are a few new editions, the Class of 2009, Blake Griffin, Steph Curry, James Harden etc. are now eligible for the list. I spent most of the past year researching the 1970's so there are significant changes in my views on some of those players. As always the toughest challenge is to find a way to rank the players as objectively as possible without devaluing the things I think make a great basketball player.

For the third consecutive year I am relying heavily on a tier system, the tier system has evolved as well. As of this moment I have 25 tiers of 10 or more players ranging from the all-time greats to role players. For this abridged version of the project I'll be focusing on the top 15 tiers, which covers a little over the top 200 players. I intend to move swiftly through the first 100 plus. Once I get to the top 100 I'll spend a little more time on each player, but I don't anticipate being as elaborate as I was on the 2009 Edition. Most of the stats and background information I posted back then is now very accessible. My focus this time will be on demonstrating the aspects of a players career/game/resume that have led to the ranking I've assigned them.

Please use this list as an opportunity to discuss and learn about these players and the portion of Basketball history each has helped shape as you like. Understand that rankings, no matter my or anyone else's efforts are still largely subjective and perhaps more important, entirely fluid. Any opinion worth hearing is one that has been shaped over time and likely has changed quite a bit. With that spirit in mind I am constantly changing my list and I value all of your feedback as a way of helping me better understand perspective I may not have considered or fully valued. Thanks and as always, enjoy. [/SIZE]
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[B][CENTER][SIZE="4"]MISSION STATEMENT[/SIZE][/CENTER][/B]

[I][SIZE="3"][FONT="Garamond"]I believe in merit, I believe in motivation and I believe in competition. Greatness thusly, should be defined by achievement not by potential. I don't see the point of wondering how Mikan would do in the 1960's NBA. That was never something Mikan was going to have to deal with. To judge/rate/rank him based on a subjective evaluation of probable performance in an impossible hypothetical situation is not something I am going to do.

There is one common bond between all eras of basketball. Try and win the game by putting the ball in your opponents basket and defending your own basket. As the eras changed so did the rules, styles, philosophies, motives, everything surrounding that general objective. None of the changes are immediate, all are subtle and progressive. Players, coaches, organizations and fans all adjust over time at a different pace. The one's who set the pace typically excel regardless of the speed of the pack.

It's only important to be ahead of your time, not to be timeless. The second one is great for a legacy, but doesn't help you a bit in the moment.

The greatest handicap for a player of any given era when it comes to this list is information. Too much or too little can have a huge impact on how much a player is over or under rated. To consider any other factor beyond their control only serves to greater confuse the issue. For me to look at players from different eras there can be no bonus or penalty for when the player played. That is completely out of their control and therefore irrelevant when evaluating them.

That is not to say that all Championships, all awards etc. are equal. The subjective element of evaluating a basketball player is in considering the significance of what did happen. There are breaks good/bad as a part of the game, but that's where it stops. Example: McHale's foot injury in 1987 was a bad break for the Celtics. (literally) That's it. There is no, "if McHale doesn't get hurt the Celtics beat the Lakers and then Bird and Magic each have four rings..." etc etc etc.

You don't get to diminish a team or players actual achievement(s) with a subjective conclusion to a hypothetical.

Finally there is an element of humility necessarily for me to take myself seriously. You read a lot of people's opinions when you study the game like those of us who discuss these topics do. Sometimes you agree, sometimes you disagree, but it's important to consider all of them. I can't possibly always be right, but I have to think I am (until I really don't) or I can't possibly hope for my opinions to evolve. So with this in mind I generally trust the consensus or popular opinion until an argument otherwise sways me. (Happens a lot) I find that going about it the other way, I.E. trusting your eyes, instincts, hunch, will often lead to searching for validation more than information.[/FONT][/SIZE][/I]
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[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="5"]GOAT List Index: Part One[/SIZE][/FONT]

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#212 - Stephen Curry - page one
#211 - Stephon Marbury - page one
#210 - Vin Baker - page one
#209 - Derrick Coleman - page one
#208 - Kevin Love - page two
#207 - LaMarcus Aldridge - page two
#206 - Otis Birdsong - page two
#205 - Jerry Stackhouse - page two
#204 - Dan Roundfield - page two
#203 - Terry Cummings - page two
#202 - Warren Jabali - page two
#201 - Jimmy Jones - page two
#200 - Carlos Boozer - page three
#199 - Antoine Walker - page three[/SIZE][/FONT]

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[SIZE="4"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]#198 - Dick McGuire - page three
#197 - Bill Bridges - page three
#196 - Larry Nance - page four
#195 - Rudy LaRusso - page four
#194 - Louie Dampier - page four
#193 - Michael Finley - page four
#192 - Red Kerr - page four
#191 - Paul Silas - page four
#190 - Charlie Scott - page four
#189 - Mark Aguirre - page four
#188 - Larry Kenon - page four
#187 - Shawn Marion - page four
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[SIZE="4"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]#186 - Jerry Sloan - page five
#185 - Norm Van Lier - page five
#184 - Richard Hamilton - page five
#183 - Ron Artest - page five
#182 - Paul Seymour - page five
#181 - Bobby Wanzer - page five
#180 - Clyde Lovellette - page five
#179 - Tom Gola - page five
#178 - Larry Foust - page five
#177 - Harry Gallatin - page five
#176 - Rolando Blackman - page five
#175 - Buck Williams - page five
#174 - Bailey Howell - page five
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[SIZE="4"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]#173 - Micheal Ray Richardson - page five
#172 - Doug Collins - page five
#171 - Peja Stojakovic - page six
#170 - Phil Smith - page six
#169 - Gene Shue - page six
#168 - Larry Johnson - page six
#167 - Truck Robinson - page six
#166 - Phil Chenier - page six
#165 - Gilbert Arenas - page six
#164 - James Harden - page six
#163 - Joakim Noah - page six
#162 - Blake Griffin - page six
#161 - Brad Daugherty - page six
#160 - Alex Groza - page six
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#159 - Joe Johnson - page seven
#158 - Baron Davis - page seven
#157 - Latrell Sprewell - page eight
#156 - Andrew Toney - page eight
#155 - Arnie Risen - page eight
#154 - Rajon Rondo - page eight
#153 - Ralph Sampson - page nine
#152 - Sam Cassell - page nine
#151 - Gus Williams - page nine
#150 - Willie Wise - page ten
#149 - Roger Brown - page ten
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#148 Zach Randolph - page ten
#147 Elton Brand - page ten
#146 Richie Guerin - page ten
#145 Glen Rice - page ten
#144 Deron Williams - page eleven
#143 Bob Love - page eleven
#142 Jack Twyman - page twelve
#141 Lou Hudson - page twelve
#140 Tom Chambers - page twelve
#139 Walter Davis - page twelve
#138 Russell Westbrook - page twelve
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#137 Horace Grant - page twelve
#136 Ed Macauley - page twelve
#135 Norm Nixon - page thirteen
#134 Maurice Cheeks - page thirteen
#133 Chet Walker - page thirteen
#132 Rasheed Wallace - page fourteen
#131 Bobby Jones - page fourteen
#130 Dan Issel - page fourteen
#129 Jack Sikma - page fourteen
#128 Bill Laimbeer - page fourteen
#127 Vern Mikkelsen - page sixteen
#126 Slater Martin - page sixteen
#125 Chris Bosh - page sixteen
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#124 George Yardley - page seventeen
#123 Neil Johnston - page seventeen
#122 Max Zaslofsky - page seventeen
#121 Walt Bellamy - page seventeen
#120 Zelmo Beaty - page eighteen
#119 Mitch Richmond - page eighteen
#118 Dikembe Mutombo - page nineteen
#117 Vince Carter - page nineteen
#116 Shawn Kemp - page nineteen

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Saved for index and Updates

G.O.A.T's on fire with these lists and shit. :applause:

Super cute goat picture in OP :applause:


I miss my goat :cry:

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#212 Wardell Stephen Curry II[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 5 (4)
[B]Primary Role:[/B] Lead Player on Middle of the Pack Team
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-4-7-2 on 47/44/90
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]O[/SIZE]ne of the up and coming stars in today's games and a player so smooth he's already making a case as one of the top shooters of all-time. This second generation star is the biggest basketball star in the Bay Area since Run TMC and the Warriors are contenders for the first time in even longer. Combining solid ball handling and an unselfish nature with that deadly range and lightning quick release, plus the ability to play on or off the ball, Curry is one of the best offensive guards of his generation. After a coming out party in the 2013 playoffs, the 2013-14 season saw Curry make his first all-star team, garner All-NBA second team honors and finish sixth in the MVP voting. As Golden State continues their commitment to winning, Curry figures to be a star on the rise for years to come.[/FONT] [/SIZE]
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#211 Stephon Xavier Marbury[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (8)
[B]Primary Role:[/B] Lead Player on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-3-8-1 on 43/33/78
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] part of the famous 1996 draft class, Starbury seemed headed for greatness. Beginning his career teamed with Kevin Garnett in Minnesota, the Timberwolves seemed to have their Stockton/Malone for the next generation. However the spotlight wasn't big enough for both and Marbury forced his way out. From there it was a vagabonds journey of mixed success. From 1999 to 2004 he played for four teams, Minnesota, New Jersey, Phoenix and New York. He made all-star and all-NBA teams at the middle two, but almost never seen the playoffs. In total, five first round defeats are the extent of his playoff resume, never getting further than a sixth game. Still with multiple all-star and all-NBA seasons and seven seasons of 20 and 8 production, it's hard to forget how good he was, even if all we seem to remember is how good we all thought he could have been. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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OP is G.O.A.T

Awesome to see this back again. I loved reading the last one!

Great work already, looking forward to more as it comes!

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#210 Vincent Lamont Baker [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on mostly below average teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-10-3-1 on 49/63
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]H[/SIZE]artford University is not a place known for producing Basketball stars so when the Milwaukee Bucks selected him 8th overall in the 1993 draft ahead of other more well known forwards including George Lynch who had just led North Carolina to a National Championship, fans were underwhelmed to say the least. But it didn't take long for Vin to Win them over as the 6'11" 260 pound old school big man was an all-star by his second season and a 20/10 guy shortly after. However after four losing seasons with the Bucks, Baker was shipped as part of a three team trade that landed him in Seattle, Shawn Kemp in Cleveland and Terrell Brandon in Milwaukee. With the Sonics core mostly intact from their 1996 finals appearance, the Baker for Kemp swap brought stability and they won 61 games. But in the playoffs they fell behind 2-1 to a young and hungry Minnesota, won that series and then were smashed by the Lakers. Baker and the Sonics were all down hill from there. Injuries and a lack of conditioning returning to the lockout shortened 1999 season proved to be the end of Baker's run as an all-star. He played seven more seasons and retired in 2006.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#209 Derrick D. Coleman [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Lead Player/2nd-3rd option on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-10-3-2 on 45/29/77
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]B[/SIZE]ack when Detroit used to roll out a ton of NBA talent, Derrick Coleman was among the best. Coming out of Syracuse as the #1 overall pick, D.C. was expected to take the New Jersey Nets to new heights. He clearly had the talent and four his first four seasons he averaged 20/10. But there was another side of him. He was whiny, he was lazy, he refused to be a leader and set a bad example, as a result his teams underachieved and his career feel off a cliff after he left New Jersey. The talent was still there, but the body was breaking down little by little. The shame of it all is he played on some talented teams too, but unfortunate circumstances or just Coleman's bad attitude spoiled them all. In New Jersey he played with Drazen Petrovic and Kenny Anderson, but Petrovic was killed tragically in 1993 and Anderson followed Coleman's script. In Philadelphia the young back court of Allen Iverson and Jerry Stackhouse was promising, but the team never got off the ground as injuries and a lack of chemistry forced that group to be broken up. His Hornet days he was 40 pounds too heavy, in his second stint with Philly three years too old. It just never came together for Coleman, like many of his generation. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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I already think Curry is too low :lol

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]I already think Curry is too low :lol[/QUOTE]
I think he's too high.

Who the **** is Wardell Stephen Curry II



His name Steph Curry

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill]Who the **** is Wardell Stephen Curry II



His name Steph Curry[/QUOTE]
I prefer dell curry just cus it ****s with people.
This list is gonna be looonnnnngggg

[QUOTE=magnax1]I prefer dell curry just cus it ****s with people.
This list is gonna be looonnnnngggg[/QUOTE]


My mind just got blown

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#212 Wardell Stephen Curry II[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 5 (4)
[B]Primary Role:[/B] Lead Player on Middle of the Pack Team
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-4-7-2 on 47/44/90
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]O[/SIZE]ne of the up and coming stars in today's games and a player so smooth he's already making a case as one of the top shooters of all-time. This second generation star is the biggest basketball star in the Bay Area since Run TMC and the Warriors are contenders for the first time in even longer. Combining solid ball handling and an unselfish nature with that deadly range and lightning quick release, plus the ability to play on or off the ball, Curry is one of the best offensive guards of his generation. After a coming out party in the 2013 playoffs, the 2013-14 season saw Curry make his first all-star team, garner All-NBA second team honors and finish sixth in the MVP voting. As Golden State continues their commitment to winning, Curry figures to be a star on the rise for years to come.[/FONT] [/SIZE]
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#211 Stephon Xavier Marbury[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (8)
[B]Primary Role:[/B] Lead Player on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-3-8-1 on 43/33/78
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] part of the famous 1996 draft class, Starbury seemed headed for greatness. Beginning his career teamed with Kevin Garnett in Minnesota, the Timberwolves seemed to have their Stockton/Malone for the next generation. However the spotlight wasn't big enough for both and Marbury forced his way out. From there it was a vagabonds journey of mixed success. From 1999 to 2004 he played for four teams, Minnesota, New Jersey, Phoenix and New York. He made all-star and all-NBA teams at the middle two, but almost never seen the playoffs. In total, five first round defeats are the extent of his playoff resume, never getting further than a sixth game. Still with multiple all-star and all-NBA seasons and seven seasons of 20 and 8 production, it's hard to forget how good he was, even if all we seem to remember is how good we all thought he could have been. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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With these two guards here (Starbury in particular) I wonder where the likes of Stevie Franchise (if he makes the list at all), Arenas, Baron Davis will end up on this list?

Off to a great star as usual.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#210 Vincent Lamont Baker [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on mostly below average teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-10-3-1 on 49/63
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]H[/SIZE]artford University is not a place known for producing Basketball stars so when the Milwaukee Bucks selected him 8th overall in the 1993 draft ahead of other more well known forwards including George Lynch who had just led North Carolina to a National Championship, fans were underwhelmed to say the least. But it didn't take long for Vin to Win them over as the 6'11" 260 pound old school big man was an all-star by his second season and a 20/10 guy shortly after. However after four losing seasons with the Bucks, Baker was shipped as part of a three team trade that landed him in Seattle, Shawn Kemp in Cleveland and Terrell Brandon in Milwaukee. With the Sonics core mostly intact from their 1996 finals appearance, the Baker for Kemp swap brought stability and they won 61 games. But in the playoffs they fell behind 2-1 to a young and hungry Minnesota, won that series and then were smashed by the Lakers. Baker and the Sonics were all down hill from there. Injuries and a lack of conditioning returning to the lockout shortened 1999 season proved to be the end of Baker's run as an all-star. He played seven more seasons and retired in 2006.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#209 Derrick D. Coleman [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Lead Player/2nd-3rd option on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-10-3-2 on 45/29/77
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]B[/SIZE]ack when Detroit used to roll out a ton of NBA talent, Derrick Coleman was among the best. Coming out of Syracuse as the #1 overall pick, D.C. was expected to take the New Jersey Nets to new heights. He clearly had the talent and four his first four seasons he averaged 20/10. But there was another side of him. He was whiny, he was lazy, he refused to be a leader and set a bad example, as a result his teams underachieved and his career feel off a cliff after he left New Jersey. The talent was still there, but the body was breaking down little by little. The shame of it all is he played on some talented teams too, but unfortunate circumstances or just Coleman's bad attitude spoiled them all. In New Jersey he played with Drazen Petrovic and Kenny Anderson, but Petrovic was killed tragically in 1993 and Anderson followed Coleman's script. In Philadelphia the young back court of Allen Iverson and Jerry Stackhouse was promising, but the team never got off the ground as injuries and a lack of chemistry forced that group to be broken up. His Hornet days he was 40 pounds too heavy, in his second stint with Philly three years too old. It just never came together for Coleman, like many of his generation. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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The other promising forward from that era, (or 2 really) were Larry Johnson and Danny Manning. There problems were due to injury unlike Vin and DC.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#208 Kevin Wesley Love [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 6 (3)
[B]Primary Role:[/B] Lead Player on Non-Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 24-13-3-1-1 on 46/38/83
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]C[/SIZE]onsidered by many to be the best power forward in the league today, this second generation star and Nephew of a Beach Boy, Kevin Love, has had an up and down first six years in the league. On the one hand he is better than most expected. An elite rebounder, a top-notch scorer from inside and out, capable of playing the five or a stretch four position. He's already posted numbers that rival the best statistical seasons of some all-time great power forwards. On the hand other injuries and competing in a ultra-tough Western Conference with a limited roster has kept him from reaching the postseason so far. Still Love's progression is promising. He has become a better defender, extended his range and dramatically reshaped his body in a half a decade's time. With one season left on his contract in Minnesota his future destination is a major topic in the NBA right now. While it's hard to tell at this point if he has what it takes to lead a Championship team, he certainly seems fit to help almost any team contend from a 2nd/3rd option role. Where ever he ends up he's sure to start climbing this list quickly and soon. [/FONT] [/SIZE]
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#207 LaMarcus Nurae Aldridge [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 8 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-8-2-1-1 on 49/80
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]t's hard to believe LaMarcus Aldridge has been in the league for eight years. This past season was for him, like so many other NBA stars over the past two seasons, a breakout year. He set career highs in points, rebounds and assists per game and Portland advanced past the first round for the first time since Shaq and Kobe ripped their heart out in the 2000 Western Conference Finals. Aldridge was in middle school then. He took on a bigger role, both in terms of his play and what he had to say: "I realized that I had to be more vocal, more demanding -- and that I have to still do that more, I think. I have a tendency to roll with the punches. But this year, especially with things getting rougher, I call my own play. I think that's the start of me being more of the leader. I can still shoot it, but if they double-team me, I can still make the right pass and we can score." At 6'11" with tons of length and a solid jump shot, Aldridge is the modern eras answer to Elvin Hayes without all the distraction. He's now made three straight all-star teams in the highly competitive Western Conference and this season secured his second All-NBA nod and his first top ten MVP vote. With Portland on the rise and this eight year veteran still only 28 years old, more good things seem to be in store. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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I don't think Aldridge is better than Love... I think Love on a decent team could be top 100 all time.. Which he might be this season

I don't think I'd put LA over Vin or DC. Love either. That means Boozer is close right, and I don't think Boozer is above VB and DC either ...

Thanks for following the thread so far, I'm sure there is going to be lots of guys who you might rank higher or lower than I did, and while you can respond how ever you'd like, I'd prefer to hear your reasons than just know you disagree. I'll try to address these specific ones below to help you get a sense for my logic here.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]I don't think Aldridge is better than Love... I think Love on a decent team could be top 100 all time.. Which he might be this season[/QUOTE]

I think Love is better to, but I am evaluating them as if their careers ended today and considering Aldridge has a playoff series win where he played very well as his teams best player, twice as many prime seasons and comparable accolades and stats.

Remember one of my lines from the mission statement. Greatness will be measured by achievement, not potential.


[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I don't think I'd put LA over Vin or DC. Love either. That means Boozer is close right, and I don't think Boozer is above VB and DC either ...[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing about Vin and Baker versus Aldridge and Love as I spent a good amount of time on this comparison last week preparing to add the new players to the list and update the active player resumes.

Both Baker and Coleman were probably a little better out of the shoot than Aldridge, but they were older too. From the age of 23 on, Aldridge puts up as good or better numbers than both and both DC and Vin had dropped of considerably after four seasons. Aldridge already has more healthy quality seasons than either (I was generous to give DC seven as two of those he played like 50 games in). Aldridge has already matched both with 2 all-nba seasons and has one fewer AS game than Baker, 2 more than DC (who was hurt by his reputation with coaches in that regard)

Additionally the playoff thing with Aldridge this year. That's what gave him the nod. Coleman never won a playoff series in his prime. Baker won one with Seattle, but he played poorly and both Payton and Schrempf were more productive.

As for Boozer, I'll cover that when I get to him later this week or next week. Mostly he has benefited from playing on good teams which has allowed me to move him up a few tiers, I know what you mean though. At first glance he's not a significantly better player by any means.

Try to separate potential from achievements though. For all the skill they had neither Baker nor Coleman ever did anything truly significant in the NBA.

Thanks for your opinions as always.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Thanks for following the thread so far, I'm sure there is going to be lots of guys who you might rank higher or lower than I did, and while you can respond how ever you'd like, I'd prefer to hear your reasons than just know you disagree. I'll try to address these specific ones below to help you get a sense for my logic here.



I think Love is better to, but I am evaluating them as if their careers ended today and considering Aldridge has a playoff series win where he played very well as his teams best player, twice as many prime seasons and comparable accolades and stats.

Remember one of my lines from the mission statement. Greatness will be measured by achievement, not potential.




Here's the thing about Vin and Baker versus Aldridge and Love as I spent a good amount of time on this comparison last week preparing to add the new players to the list and update the active player resumes.

Both Baker and Coleman were probably a little better out of the shoot than Aldridge, but they were older too. From the age of 23 on, Aldridge puts up as good or better numbers than both and both DC and Vin had dropped of considerably after four seasons. Aldridge already has more healthy quality seasons than either (I was generous to give DC seven as two of those he played like 50 games in). Aldridge has already matched both with 2 all-nba seasons and has one fewer AS game than Baker, 2 more than DC (who was hurt by his reputation with coaches in that regard)

Additionally the playoff thing with Aldridge this year. That's what gave him the nod. Coleman never won a playoff series in his prime. Baker won one with Seattle, but he played poorly and both Payton and Schrempf were more productive.

As for Boozer, I'll cover that when I get to him later this week or next week. Mostly he has benefited from playing on good teams which has allowed me to move him up a few tiers, I know what you mean though. At first glance he's not a significantly better player by any means.

Try to separate potential from achievements though. For all the skill they had neither Baker nor Coleman ever did anything truly significant in the NBA.

Thanks for your opinions as always.[/QUOTE]
I do think they with success (LA) or just having flat out better numbers (Love) they will pass them eventually. I'd actually give LA one more season like last season to put him over Vin and DC. IF LA decided to retire today, I don't know if his career is better then Vin and DC though they had very disappointing careers.

Boozer at his best has never been better than the four bigs you have listed so far. And of the forward bigs this era (Amare, Bosh, Love, LA, Pau, Z-Bo) I think Boozer was the worse. Tom Gugliotta's level.

I should have left this for when Boozer is listed.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#206 Otis Lee Birdsong
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Go-to-Guy on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 23-3-3-1 on 51/66
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]M[/SIZE]ost people don't even know who Otis Birdsong is. Well if you don't and you want to learn to shoot, watch Otis Birdsong. Birdsong had a silky smooth jumper than he could get off from so many angles. One of the old school masters of the mid-range, Birdsong used bank shots, floaters and leaners to score 20-25 points per game through the NBA transitional period of the late 70's and early 80's. Joining the Kansas City Kings in 1977, one year after the ABA merger, Birdsong would blossom into a top-notch scorer in his second season averaging 22 points per game and leading the Kings along with rookie of the year Phil Ford and sharpshooter Scott Wedman to their first of three straight playoff appearances. It was consistency that allowed Birdsong to make his mark, said teammate Sam Lacey "Otis was automatic, he could score twenty from the bench." In 1981 Otis had his best season averaging 25 points per game and the Kings had a golden opportunity to make it to the NBA Finals as the West had become wide open with upsets of the Lakers and Spurs, the West's two top teams coming at the hands of the 40-42 Rockets. The Kings and Rockets met in the Western Conference Finals, but injuries kept Birdsong out and the Kings run ended. That off-season Birdsong was traded to the Nets for Cliff Robinson and became the first $1 million guard in NBA history. The Kings fell out of the playoff picture while Birdsong and the Nets, under Larry Brown went back to the postseason. After recovering from injuries in '82, Birdsong would average 18 per game for the Nets over four more seasons while topping 50% from the field each year. He never got another shot at the finals, but those who remember him know he was the guy you wanted taking the final shot. As he liked to say, "there are only three certanties in life, death, taxes and my jump shot."
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#205 Jerry Darnell Stackhouse
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 18 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 23-4-5-1 on 41/31/84
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]F[/SIZE]rom his days at Chapel Hill alongside Rasheed Wallace, Jerry Stackhouse could flat out score. And even if his game sometimes lacked a certain aesthetic quality, he poured his heart and his soul into always. Things got off to a rough start as the Sixers, who drafted him 3rd overall in 1995 went 40-124 in his first two seasons. After another subpar start in 1997-98, he was traded to the Pistons for Theo Ratliff and moved from playing alongside Allen Iverson (a rising star with a reputation for being selfish) to Grant Hill (a rising star with the opposite reputation). Both teams got better as Stackhouse became the Pistons sixth made mentoring under Joe Dumars in his final two seasons. In 2000, with Dumars moving to the front office and Hill to Orlando, it was Jerry's team now. He averaged 30 a game in 2000-01 but the Pistons were poor. The next year Detroit brought in Rick Carlisle as coach and Detroit turned it around with Stackhouse now taking fewer shots on and off the court. After 50 wins, a division title and a playoff series win though, Detroit moved Stack to Washington where he played alongside Michael Jordan. After two disappointing seasons there, Stackhouse and Rick Carlisle were reunited in Dallas where Jerry reprised his sixth man role and went to the NBA finals. In total he made tow all-star appearances averaged 20 or more in five seasons for three different teams and left the NBA with a reputation as a great teammate and a true professional. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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Awesome, I look forward to this thread and the discussions that follow.

I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.

[QUOTE=magnax1]I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.[/QUOTE]
I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.

[QUOTE=magnax1]I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.[/QUOTE]

I may be biased, but I watched him transform himself into this poor mans Jordan from 2001 to 2002 in Detroit. I don't mean to say he was anything like a player on MJ's level, just that he stopped looking for his shots early, got other guys involved, played great defense and then took (and made) the clutch shots. He was the go-to-guy for a 50-win division champion that added Cliff Robinson froma 30-win squad the year before.

Love and Aldridge are better players, but if their careers ended today, I think Stackhouse has done just as much.

Remember Love has never been to the playoffs, we all agree barring an injury he is on his way to a much better career than the other guys in this section, but are his number and accolades any better than say Sidney Wicks right now.

Time will really fix all these issues with modern players being ranked. Thanks for your always critical and constructive input magnax.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

[B]I'd switch him and Birdsong though.[/B][/QUOTE]

I just switched them today, something about the Kings making that '81 playoff run without him just runs me the wrong way. Plus they got better when Ford arrived, not when he did, not saying Ford is better, but he was more respected by people around the sport from what I can gather. Whereas Stackhouse gets nothing but praise from teammates Carlisle and Dumars for his adaptation in 2002.

You have the same problem as me I think, we love the players from our era and before.









A reminder to all of you too to keep an eye on the tiers. So far everyone's in the same tier, so they can be swapped about every day pretty much.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Id definitely say Love has inflated stats at least. Hes not up there with moses malone or anything like his stats suggest and probably wasnt ever the best PF in the league. Still Id rather have him than stackhouse who just put up a volumous amount of points on awful shooting generally. I mean, you could say he left detroit at the wrong time or that he was traded for a guy who looks worse on paper who was actually a lot better.
Like I said hes valuable as a sixth man, but I dont think he was all star caliber like love or aldridge.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I may be biased, but I watched him transform himself into this poor mans Jordan from 2001 to 2002 in Detroit. I don't mean to say he was anything like a player on MJ's level, just that he stopped looking for his shots early, got other guys involved, played great defense and then took (and made) the clutch shots. He was the go-to-guy for a 50-win division champion that added Cliff Robinson froma 30-win squad the year before.

Love and Aldridge are better players, but if their careers ended today, I think Stackhouse has done just as much.

Remember Love has never been to the playoffs, we all agree barring an injury he is on his way to a much better career than the other guys in this section, but are his number and accolades any better than say Sidney Wicks right now.

Time will really fix all these issues with modern players being ranked. Thanks for your always critical and constructive input magnax.



I just switched them today, something about the Kings making that '81 playoff run without him just runs me the wrong way. Plus they got better when Ford arrived, not when he did, not saying Ford is better, but he was more respected by people around the sport from what I can gather. Whereas Stackhouse gets nothing but praise from teammates Carlisle and Dumars for his adaptation in 2002.

You have the same problem as me I think, we love the players from our era and before.









A reminder to all of you too to keep an eye on the tiers. So far everyone's in the same tier, so they can be swapped about every day pretty much.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you can judge that 81' run too much. It was basically a fluke. For the Rockets also. Who knows how it plays out if Birdsong was healthy for that series. But Moses was determined.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#204 Danny Thomas Roundfield
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Top Big Man on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 17-10-2-2 on 49/74
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]f there was ever a player who is now underrated it's Dan Roundfield. This guy could do it all at his height. A great defender who could guard three positions, jump with centers and run with guards. A guy who was a lock for double digit rebounds and the all-defensive team in his prime, Roundfield was the best player on three Hawks playoff teams with support from John Drew and Eddie Johnson. In 1979, when the Hawks pushed the defending Champion Bullets to seven games, Roundfield led Atlanta in scoring, rebounding, blocks and steals. He made three all-star teams, one all-NBA team, five all-defensive teams and finished 5th in the MVP voting in 1980. He was the man on the Hawks during Nique's rookie season and sadly when Roundfield died last year trying to saving his wife from drowning it was Wilkins who left a fitting tribute. "Dan fearlessly lived and died for his family, which is all he ever really wanted. So yes, Dan Roundfield was a tremendous athlete who elevated basketball in the city of Atlanta, but what is even more tremendous is the imprint he made on all of us, his teammates, and on the lives of his wife, his two sons and his grandchildren."
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#203 Robert Terrell Cummings
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 18 (8)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on Good not Great Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 23-9-3-1 on 49/70
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]he guy selected second in the 1982 draft, right after James Worthy and right before Dominique Wilkins, and the guy who won the 1983 rookie of the year over those two and the rest of that draft class. 20,000 points later, he's still remembered third best from that class. That's Terry Cummings, an elite scoring forward who could rebound and run all day long at a young age. After two seasons with the Clippers, Cummings asked owner Donald Sterling to trade him to the Bucks. Sterling obliged and as Cummings put, "my dreams had come true" Playing in Milwaukee, just a short drive from his home in Chicago and for a Bucks team that was one of the best in the league was a great fit for Cummings. The Bucks won 50 or more games in each of Cummings first three seasons and didn't drop below .500 until 1993. They played in two conference finals and Cummings averaged 28, 22, 22 and 26 points per games over his first four playoff runs, a span of more than 35 games. In the 90's he moved to the San Antonio Spurs alongside David Robinson. He was a prime time playoff scorer there too and helped the Spurs push eventually Western Conference Champion Portland to seven games in 1990, averaging 30 per game for the final three contests of the series but coming up just short. In all Terry Cummings left his mark on the NBA as a marksman and all-around scoring machine, a beloved teammate and now dedicates his life to god as a full-time pastor.[/FONT][/SIZE]
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I don't know of you'd call these guys underrated or overlooked. Roundfield will be overlooked like David West will be in this era. I used to get a lot of Terry Cummings upper deck basketball cards for some reason. In every pack, he was in there. He stayed around like Cliff Robinson.

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]I personally have Love at #199 and LMA at #211, but you make some solid points I might reconsider.[/QUOTE]

When the numbers get this high, it's as you say, random. The tiers were created because of this issue. Basically outside of the top 12-18 it's pretty damn subjective. There are good arguments for almost every guy over every other guy within the tiers I've compiled. It's that grouping of players with similar careers, similar impact, similar greatness that is what I really find to be a satisfying labor.

One day I will abandon the numerical rankings all together, even as I work over my rankings now I am making changes. The top 70-80 I feel pretty good about, after that it's a strange mix of guys who were great individually but not good enough to win anything and guys who couldn't be your star, but as a 2 or 3 could be a key piece to a great team.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#202 Warren Edward Armstrong (Jabali)
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B]
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Best Player on '69 Oaks, 1A/1B on contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-7-6 on 44/31/77
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]his is probably a bit too high to rank Warren Jabali, but I'm terrified of what he might do if he were ranked any lower. Jabali was a 6'2" forward, a fantastic talent and in all likelihood legitimately insane. If you've never read Terry Pluto's "Loose Balls" documenting the ABA, it's worth it just for the stories on Jabali, Marvin Barnes and John Brisker. Here's some of my favorite Jabali related quotes with some added context. First from former coach Al Bianchi..."I coached Jabali in Washington (1969-70) and I never knew what was going on in his but I didn't care either. All I knew is...the man played. He may have been the toughest competitor I was ever around in a lifetime of basketball." Despite his great competitive fire, Jabali bounced around from team to team almost every year. Says Rudy Martzke, "When Jabali came to Florida, coach Bob Bass was excited we got him for next to nothing, but I said, we got him for nothing because he's nuts. Bass said he didn't care because we were a scared team ann now with Jabali, everyone would have to be scared of us." And with good reason. Just ask Dave Twardzik, former ABAer and sixth man for the '77 Blazers..."When you had guys like Jabali around, there were fights even in exhibition games." But Jabali himself said it best..."I learned to play on the playground and there your instincts come out, smashing someones face is just basketball." Despite all the madness, dude could play. In 1969 the Oakland Oaks had him, Rick Barry, Doug Moe, Red Robbins and Larry Brown and ran all over the league. With Barry out for the stretch run and playoffs (court case) Jabali took charge. He averaged 29-13-2 (remember he was 6'2") and led the Oaks to the ABA title. Over his career he won the ABA rookie of the year, All-Star game and Playoffs MVP awards and was a four-time all-star. He was crazy good and just plain crazy.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#201 James Jones
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Best Player on Middle of the Pack teams, #2/#3 on Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-5-5 on 51/79
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]It

I've read stories on both Jones and Jabali. You should mention they both made the All-Time ABA Team which was voted on the same time as the NBA @ 50.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I've read stories on both Jones and Jabali. You should mention they both made the All-Time ABA Team which was voted on the same time as the NBA @ 50.[/QUOTE]

Thanks to you I don't have to.

But since I love the ABA so much, here's the rest of the All-Time team and a brief comment on anyone who didn't make this portion of the list.

Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Moses Malone
Willie Wise
Louie Dampier
Dan Issel
Mel Daniels
Warren Jabali
Zelmo Beaty
Julius Erving
Jimmy Jones
Charlie Scott
Roger Brown
George Gervin
Maurice Lucas
David Thompson
Connie Hawkins
George McGinnis
Billy Cunningham
Spencer Haywood

Bob Netolicky - Another great ABA character, a Bill Laimbeer type but instead of fighting he did something else that started with F. He owned the night club the team partied at after their three titles.

Marvin Barnes - The kind of guy who could eat five hamburgers before a game and then go drop 40/20 on Doctor J. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Billy Paultz - Tough as nails center. ABA's answer to Dave Cowens, proved himself in the NBA late in his prime.
Ron Boone - He reminds me of Dennis Johnson and Joe Dumars combined. High arching jump shot and great athleticism from a combo guard spot.

Donnie Freeman - Clutch scorer, at his peak a top ABA guard, later on an invaluable scorer for the Pacers last title run.

Freddie Lewis - Pacers point guard for the title teams. Overcame resentment for stealing fan favorite Rick Mount's minutes by playing his best basketball in the playoffs.

James Silas - Captain Late, as he was known, was one of the best clutch scores many have ever seen. Silas was considered a top five ABA player before his injuries cost him the '76 ABA playoffs and his NBA career.

Mack Calvin - Small, Lightning quick guard who could finish at the rack, once averaged 27 a game, constantly among the top ABA guards.

Darrel Carrier - Louie Dampier's back court running mate on those loaded Kentucky teams. Carrier was a near 40% three-point marksman, extremely good for his time.

Doug Moe - Would later claim greater fame as a coach with an up-tempo offense, but he could play. Sort of a do everything forward, Moe rebounded his position well and posted 20+ppg averages in multiple seasons.

Just start with the top 100 :lol

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#200 Carlos Austin Boozer Jr.
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on playoff teams/3rd/4th option on contender
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 18/11/3/1 on 53/72
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]he greatest Alaskan born player I am aware of and a guy who has found his way on to winning teams since his college days. Boozer combines, brute force toughness and a smooth jump shot with blue-collar rebounding and fierce competitiveness to form a prototypical power forward in the modern game. After making a name for himself as a second round pick in Cleveland, Boozer bolted for Utah and helped lead the Jazz to the 2007 Western Conference Finals. Their top showing post Stockton/Malone. In fact Utah went from 26 to 41 to 51 to 54 wins in Boozers first four seasons. The won playoff series in '08 and 2010 as well before he signed with Chicago in the 2010 off-season. During the '07 run Boozers 24/12/3 on 54/74 averages earned him inclusion amongst the leagues top players. He would make his two all-star appearances in '07 and '08 and his only All-NBA nod as well. Though injuries and father time caught up with Boozer shortly after he has acclimated himself well as a role player in the last few seasons, having a very productive 2013 at age 31. What sets Boozer apart from other forwards in this group in below is the same thing that moves Terry Cummings up. He posted numbers on good teams, winning teams that won multiple playoff series and series in consecutive years. Maybe it's a Duke thing, but he always has seemed to get it. With Boozer amnestied now, a number of contenders are biding for his services, he could be a key piece come June to watch for.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#199 Antoine Devon Walker
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 2nd Option on average teams, #3/#4 on contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-9-4-1 on 42/32/63
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]L[/SIZE]augh if you want, but before he was a shot chucking, money blowing machine, Walker could really play. He helped one of the most talented college teams ever win a title at Kentucky and then became one of the best inside/outside forwards in the NBA with the Celtics during the ill-fated Pitino era and their brief renaissance under Jim O'Brien which included trip to the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals. Walker made three all-star teams in Boston and posted seasons of 22/10. 23/9 and 22/9 as well as two other 20 ppg seasons. After a year in Dallas and a year split between Atlanta and Boston, Walker signed with the Heat in 2005 and helped Miami win a title as a third option averaging 12/5 in the regular season and 13/6 in the playoffs. Though he proved he could fit in with a Championship team and play a crucial role, like so many of his generation, Walker seemed to fail to reach his potential. He hit buzzer-beaters, scored almost 50 points twice, posted triple-doubles, but always made a few head-scratching plays for every few good plays. Walker, like so many other talented stars seemed not to know the limits of his skills as time went on, but if you'd have asked him he'd explain it perfectly. Many people wonder why a 30% three point shooter would take four, five, as many as eight three's a game.?. Asked why he shot so many three's he, Walker, obviously replied..."because there are no fours"[/FONT][/SIZE]
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Boozer a few spora from DC and Vin is alright lookin back at it. Walker I thonk geta overlooked in the past era of forwards. He was like a mini LeBron on those early Celtic teams.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Marvin Barnes - The kind of guy who could eat five hamburgers before a game and then go drop 40/20 on Doctor J. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Mack Calvin - Small, Lightning quick guard who could finish at the rack, once averaged 27 a game, constantly among the top ABA guards.

Doug Moe - Would later claim greater fame as a coach with an up-tempo offense, but he could play. Sort of a do everything forward, Moe rebounded his position well and posted 20+ppg averages in multiple seasons.[/QUOTE]
Surprised these guys didn't make your list.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#198 Richard Joseph McGuire
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on good teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 8-5-6 on 39/65
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The only early guards you here about is the Celtic backcourt of Cousy/Sharman and Slater Martin since he was Mikan's PG and Max Zaslofsky because of the NCAA incident.

You never really hear about Dick, Davies, Andy Phillip, Bobby Wanzer and Gene Shue.

Bill Bridges played in the short lived ABL in the early 60s.