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Was there any doubt at all that Julius was the 76ers best all around player for the Sixers title run in 1983? None at all, in my mind.
Even when a near prime Moses, along with Barkley, Toney and Cheeks were leading the charge after 1983, the 76ers were never again a real contender with an aging Julius Erving.
When Julius went, so did the 76ers title chances.
[B]Great all-around game by Julius :applause:
He was still really good and a major contributor by 1983, some people sleep on it (apart from the fact that he had one of the greatest primes/peaks for a SF).
I don't know about the rest of your post though... For me, Philly's title chances really dropped (mostly) because Moses also dropped his play considerably and never played quite at the same level that he did in 1983 and before, again. You can say that Malone just didn't care as much anymore, at least that's what most would say, because he had already won and was getting paid. Shame because he had one of the greatest peaks for a center and was playing like a beast.
But yea, Doc getting old also, considerably, hurt their chances, along with Bobby Jones getting older too, Toney then never the same again due to injury...[/B]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Great all-around game by Julius :applause:
He was still really good and a major contributor by 1983, some people sleep on it (apart from the fact that he had one of the greatest primes/peaks for a SF).
I don't know about the rest of your post though... For me, Philly's title chances really dropped (mostly) because Moses also dropped his play considerably and never played quite at the same level that he did in 1983 and before, again. You can say that Malone just didn't care as much anymore, at least that's what most would say, because he had already won and was getting paid. Shame because he had one of the greatest peaks for a center and was playing like a beast.
But yea, Doc getting old also, considerably, hurt their chances, along with Bobby Jones getting older too, Toney then never the same again due to injury...[/B][/QUOTE]
I can't really disagree with too much there except that in my post above, I clearly qualified it and said a "near prime Moses".
People often forget that Moses was just the final piece for a 76er team that WAS a yearly contender in the NBA. It is also forgotten that Doc's 76ers came within a point vs. Boston in game 7 in the ECF, with only Moses's .500 Houston team waiting in the Finals. This should have and could have been Doc's 1st title in the NBA.
Doc led an elite team yearly in Philly, and Moses finally completed it. Knowing this fact should have implications for all time rankings.
In my mind, Moses can never be ranked higher than Doc because of this.
I had a Laker season ticket that year, and watched quite a bit on TV. I also went to two of the 1980 finals games and two of the 1982 finals games.
Moses was a completely dominant animal in the 82-83 season. One of the most underrated teams of all time. Without him, they were very good, and certainly contenders, but that year with Moses, they were on another level.
At the time, I thought the refs were giving him quite a bit of leeway, but history has shown that refs have traditionally given offensively aggressive players an edge. Moses took full advantage of that.
In 1980 and 1982, the Sixers only really had Dr. J to really lean on when they needed a bucket. It made it relatively easier to to guard him (and the team). That changed in a big way with Moses on the team.
Andrew Toney also improved considerably in 82-83. His 19.7ppg was not far off of Erving's 21.4ppg. Moses was at 24.5ppg, and 15.3 rebounds per game :bowdown:
:applause:
[QUOTE=EllEffEll]I had a Laker season ticket that year, and watched quite a bit on TV. I also went to two of the 1980 finals games and two of the 1982 finals games.
Moses was a completely dominant animal in the 82-83 season. One of the most underrated teams of all time. Without him, they were very good, and certainly contenders, but that year with Moses, they were on another level.
At the time, I thought the refs were giving him quite a bit of leeway, but history has shown that refs have traditionally given offensively aggressive players an edge. Moses took full advantage of that.
In 1980 and 1982, the Sixers only really had Dr. J to really lean on when they needed a bucket. It made it relatively easier to to guard him (and the team). That changed in a big way with Moses on the team.
Andrew Toney also improved considerably in 82-83. His 19.7ppg was not far off of Erving's 21.4ppg. Moses was at 24.5ppg, and 15.3 rebounds per game :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
One of the great teams in NBA history, no doubt.
Such a shame Moses didn't come earlier to PHilly. History would have turned out very differently, I suspect.
Doc would be a top 5 goat ahead of Bird and Magic had Moses come to Philly a bit earlier, like say in the beginning of the 1980 season..
Absolutely no way does Magic steal a game 6 win vs. Philly at Philly without KAJ with Moses in the lineup.
Doc! :bowdown:
[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]One of the great teams in NBA history, no doubt.
Such a shame Moses didn't come earlier to PHilly. History would have turned out very differently, I suspect.
Doc would be a top 5 goat ahead of Bird and Magic had Moses come to Philly a bit earlier, like say in the beginning of the 1980 season..
Absolutely no way does Magic steal a game 6 win vs. Philly at Philly without KAJ with Moses in the lineup.[/QUOTE]
Let's not get carried away here. . . . :oldlol:
At any rate, I still have a hard time rating Julius' impact ahead of Moses' in 82-83. Having watched Moses thoroughly dominate that season (game after game), IMHO, I can't say that there was [U]no doubt[/U] that Dr. J was the best all-around player for the Sixers that season.
At 24.5/15.3, and Cheeks as the PG (and over twice as many assists as Dr. J), what does Moses have to do, keester a mop and clean the arena too?
With this statement ("Doc would be a top 5 goat ahead of Bird and Magic had Moses come to Philly a bit earlier, like say in the beginning of the 1980 season.."), I am starting to detect an agenda :confusedshrug:
Julius is an all time great, but it's the "no doubt" part that has me confused here. Of course, it's a completely subjective thing depending on what you value in a player, but I can't help but feel there is plenty of doubt, at a minimum.
[QUOTE=EllEffEll]Let's not get carried away here. . . . :oldlol:
At any rate, I still have a hard time rating Julius' impact ahead of Moses' in 82-83. Having watched Moses thoroughly dominate that season (game after game), IMHO, I can't say that there was [U]no doubt[/U] that Dr. J was the best all-around player for the Sixers that season.
At 24.5/15.3, and Cheeks as the PG (and over twice as many assists as Dr. J), what does Moses have to do, keester a mop and clean the arena too?
With this statement ("Doc would be a top 5 goat ahead of Bird and Magic had Moses come to Philly a bit earlier, like say in the beginning of the 1980 season.."), I am starting to detect an agenda :confusedshrug:
Julius is an all time great, but it's the "no doubt" part that has me confused here. Of course, it's a completely subjective thing depending on what you value in a player, but I can't help but feel there is plenty of doubt, at a minimum.[/QUOTE]
Most posters on this board have an agenda. I can't say I don't but I try to be as objective as possible.
When I use the term "all around player", I do mean it. I watched every game of that 82-83 Season and I can tell you that while Moses was the 76ers most dominant player, Doc was the best all around player i.e. points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, fg%, leadership, intangibles, chemistry.
No 76er would tell you any different. Doc was the heart and soul of that title team, and Moses knew it too. He would often refer to Philly as "Doc's team" in modesty perhaps, but also with the realization that Doc had the Sixers as an elite team even BEFORE he got there.
Moses himself had never played on an elite team before coming to Philly. Can anyone consider Houston's .500 team(1981) that upset it's way into the Finals as an elite team?
While purely speculative, Moses coming to Philly in 1980 would have won a title for Philly that year. How 'bout 1981? Well they were 1 point off Boston in a game 7 where they were leading the series 3-1. 1982? They were in the Finals that year losing to LA in 6. And then of course, 1983.
It's not outlandish to believe Philly could have won 3 more titles besides 1983. Thereby taking away 3 titles from Bird and Magic.
Would Doc be ranked higher than Magic and Bird today if Moses came to Philly earlier? A good case can be made.
Even though Doc's game declined some in the mid 80's, he was STILL an All-Star type player until he left the game. Frankly, I think he began passing the mantle more and more to Moses and Barkley AT THE EXPENSE of his own stats. This is VERY DIFFERENT from some legends who fall off or suffer those serious injuries to WHERE they had no choice. Doc EASILY had a choice even when he declined. And athletic ability wise, Doc retained his athletic ability over the duration as well as any perimeter player OF ALL TIME!
If you watch the end of the 83 finals...Doc put the Lakers to bed. He did have more to do with that ring than hes given credit for.
[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]I can't really disagree with too much there except that in my post above, I clearly qualified it and said a "near prime Moses".
People often forget that Moses was just the final piece for a 76er team that WAS a yearly contender in the NBA. It is also forgotten that Doc's 76ers came within a point vs. Boston in game 7 in the ECF, with only Moses's .500 Houston team waiting in the Finals. This should have and could have been Doc's 1st title in the NBA.
Doc led an elite team yearly in Philly, and Moses finally completed it. Knowing this fact should have implications for all time rankings.
In my mind, Moses can never be ranked higher than Doc because of this.[/QUOTE]
[B]Yea he was the final piece but, don't forget, he was also the main piece, and they didn't go from title contenders to JUST being able to win it, they went from title contenders to basically running through the whole league on their way to the title.
Moses was already a 2x MVP (won another) and had lead a team to the Finals that had no business being there... And he had a great peak in 1983, leading that team.
I rank Moses higher, I have him as high as 12.
[/B]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Yea he was the final piece but, don't forget, he was also the main piece, and they didn't go from title contenders to JUST being able to win it, they went from title contenders to basically running through the whole league on their way to the title.
Moses was already a 2x MVP (won another) and had lead a team to the Finals that had no business being there... And he had a great peak in 1983, leading that team.
I rank Moses higher, I have him as high as 12.
[/B][/QUOTE]
If winning is important, Doc should rank higher. Doc had won wherever he went throughout his career. From the Squires, to the Nets, and finally to the 76ers. He had spent most of his career contending almost yearly for titles.
Without exception, he was the centerpiece of all those teams, until Philly in 1983. Why?
I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating . From the early 60s up to 1981, no non center had ever won MVP in the NBA until Julius won it in 1981. No doubt, it was the era of the center, and no truly great team could win unless they had a great center or a loaded front court(Boston), expecially during the 80s.
KAJ and Boston's great front court lorded it over the NBA, and Julius was playing in a league increasingly dominated by centers. Magic and Bird tossed passes into the post whenever they wanted to get key baskets from KAJ's skyhook, Parish turn arounds, and Mchale up and unders.
Meanwhile in Philly, who did we have? We had Caldwell Jones, and the inconsistent Dawkins. And yet, Doc battled Magic and Bird and actually had the upper hand vs. them statistically in the early 80s.
Once we got Moses, you are right, the 76ers dominated. Why can't Doc get credit on something Magic and Bird had throughout their careers: a great interior game suited to 80s basketball?
We debated Lazerus to prove Magic was not the primary player for those early 80s Lakers, and you were spot on, so why can't Doc be the "Magic" for Moses? After all, Magic never won a title without KAJ. Could Bird have won a title without Parish, Mchale, or Cedric Maxwell(1981 FMVP)?
Or, put it this way, if Doc played on those Celtic teams of the 80s in his prime, is there any doubt at all that he would have won at least the same number of titles as Bird?
So many hypothetical scenarios here, I know, but again, Doc is treated unfairly partly because of NBA marketing reasons. Bird and Magic revived the NBA in a way Doc never did. So the NBA had successfully hyped these two players beyond their true worth, in my opinion.
Forgotten were all the legendary games Doc played during his ABA days mostly because they were never shown live to a national audience. I know how business works and I'm a realist, but basketball reality is sometimes different from business and marketing.
We will never know how good Doc really was in his ABA days, and it's a damn shame.
On Moses, he was a dominant center, and a force of nature when he was on, but he had deficiencies in his game that didn't contribute to winning consistently and contending for titles, namely he wasn't a good passer, low FG% for that era, not a great outlet passer, and not the best of defenders.
It's nitpicking , yes but there is a reason that it was only in PHilly with those great 76er teams built around Julius that he finally experienced playing for a true elite team.
[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]If winning is important, Doc should rank higher. Doc had won wherever he went throughout his career. From the Squires, to the Nets, and finally to the 76ers. He had spent most of his career contending almost yearly for titles.
Without exception, he was the centerpiece of all those teams, until Philly in 1983. Why?
I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating . From the early 60s up to 1981, no non center had ever won MVP in the NBA until Julius won it in 1981. No doubt, it was the era of the center, and no truly great team could win unless they had a great center or a loaded front court(Boston), expecially during the 80s.
KAJ and Boston's great front court lorded it over the NBA, and Julius was playing in a league increasingly dominated by centers. Magic and Bird tossed passes into the post whenever they wanted to get key baskets from KAJ's skyhook, Parish turn arounds, and Mchale up and unders.
Meanwhile in Philly, who did we have? We had Caldwell Jones, and the inconsistent Dawkins. And yet, Doc battled Magic and Bird and actually had the upper hand vs. them statistically in the early 80s.
Once we got Moses, you are right, the 76ers dominated. Why can't Doc get credit on something Magic and Bird had throughout their careers: a great interior game suited to 80s basketball?
We debated Lazerus to prove Magic was not the primary player for those early 80s Lakers, and you were spot on, so why can't Doc be the "Magic" for Moses? After all, Magic never won a title without KAJ. Could Bird have won a title without Parish, Mchale, or Cedric Maxwell(1981 FMVP)?
Or, put it this way, if Doc played on those Celtic teams of the 80s in his prime, is there any doubt at all that he would have won at least the same number of titles as Bird?
So many hypothetical scenarios here, I know, but again, Doc is treated unfairly partly because of NBA marketing reasons. Bird and Magic revived the NBA in a way Doc never did. So the NBA had successfully hyped these two players beyond their true worth, in my opinion.
Forgotten were all the legendary games Doc played during his ABA days mostly because they were never shown live to a national audience. I know how business works and I'm a realist, but basketball reality is sometimes different from business and marketing.
We will never know how good Doc really was in his ABA days, and it's a damn shame.
On Moses, he was a dominant center, and a force of nature when he was on, but he had deficiencies in his game that didn't contribute to winning consistently and contending for titles, namely he wasn't a good passer, low FG% for that era, not a great outlet passer, and not the best of defenders.
It's nitpicking , yes but there is a reason that it was only in PHilly with those great 76er teams built around Julius that he finally experienced playing for a true elite team.[/QUOTE]
[B]Again, Moses won 2 more MVP's, imho had a better peak (at least in the NBA), took a team that to the Finals that wasn't expected to get there, best player on that 1983 title team, was still able to have very good longevity... I still got Doc as the 3rd best SF and top15 all-time.
Robert Parish was already 27 before he joined the Celtics with 4 seasons under his belt, best was 17 PPG on 51%, never viewed as much either... McHale only started his prime around 1985, and in his 1st years he wasn't even playing much and wasn't close to a big factor.
Dawkins was able to score 17 PPG on 53% throughout 18 games in the 1980 post-season, scored 14 PPG on 61%, in 28 minutes, in 1981... Now, I'm not saying he compares to a Kevin McHale or a Robert Parish but don't underrate him, and let's not act like Doc didn't have any help, how about George McGinnis (one of the best PF's at some point), Bobby Jones (great role player, one of the best defensive players in the league), Doug Collins (really good SG before injuries), Andrew Toney (could've been a very good 1st option), Mo Cheeks (pretty good all-around PG and floor general)? Caldwell Jones was also a really good defensive player... And let's also not forget that the Celtics had the 2nd worst record in the league and were a "dying" franchise before Bird got there, he didn't walk into a good situation and turned them around instantly, building from the ground up then.
"Magic and Bird tossed passes into the post whenever they wanted to get key baskets from KAJ's skyhook, Parish turn arounds, and Mchale up and unders." - You're reaching there, Parish didn't score more than 15 PPG and didn't shoot over 50% on the Celtics' 1st title run with Bird, for example, plus he was never what you call a great center, pretty good but not great and certainly not a Moses Malone.
In the 1984 playoffs, neither McHale or Parish scored more than 15 PPG, and they shot 50% and 48% respectively.
No, I really don't think Julius could've won 3 titles had he started his career with the 1980 Celtics, and so forth... I think he would've still been a champion though, and there's nothing to be "ashamed" of, especially in the 1980s.
Low FG%?? From 1979 to 1983 (5 seasons) Moses scored 26.8 PPG on 51.7% from the field, league average was about 48.5%. Every of those seasons he was top5 in points per game, while also shooting 75% from the ft line on 10 attempts per game. And Malone didn't play strictly in the paint, he could/would take/hit plenty of jumpers. After 1983 I won't say much because like I've said, he dropped his production considerably (inexplicably).
Yea, he wasn't a good passer but don't underrate his defense, mainly in 1983 he was able to raise his defensive game up being one of the best defensive centers in the league having a great defensive season.[/B]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Again, Moses won 2 more MVP's, imho had a better peak (at least in the NBA), took a team that to the Finals that wasn't expected to get there, best player on that 1983 title team, was still able to have very good longevity... I still got Doc as the 3rd best SF and top15 all-time.
Robert Parish was already 27 before he joined the Celtics with 4 seasons under his belt, best was 17 PPG on 51%, never viewed as much either... McHale only started his prime around 1985, and in his 1st years he wasn't even playing much and wasn't close to a big factor.
Dawkins was able to score 17 PPG on 53% throughout 18 games in the 1980 post-season, scored 14 PPG on 61%, in 28 minutes, in 1981... Now, I'm not saying he compares to a Kevin McHale or a Robert Parish but don't underrate him, and let's not act like Doc didn't have any help, how about George McGinnis (one of the best PF's at some point), Bobby Jones (great role player, one of the best defensive players in the league), Doug Collins (really good SG before injuries), Andrew Toney (could've been a very good 1st option), Mo Cheeks (pretty good all-around PG and floor general)? Caldwell Jones was also a really good defensive player... And let's also not forget that the Celtics had the 2nd worst record in the league and were a "dying" franchise before Bird got there, he didn't walk into a good situation and turned them around instantly, building from the ground up then.
"Magic and Bird tossed passes into the post whenever they wanted to get key baskets from KAJ's skyhook, Parish turn arounds, and Mchale up and unders." - You're reaching there, Parish didn't score more than 15 PPG and didn't shoot over 50% on the Celtics' 1st title run with Bird, for example, plus he was never what you call a great center, pretty good but not great and certainly not a Moses Malone.
In the 1984 playoffs, neither McHale or Parish scored more than 15 PPG, and they shot 50% and 48% respectively.
No, I really don't think Julius could've won 3 titles had he started his career with the 1980 Celtics, and so forth... I think he would've still been a champion though, and there's nothing to be "ashamed" of, especially in the 1980s.
Low FG%?? From 1979 to 1983 (5 seasons) Moses scored 26.8 PPG on 51.7% from the field, league average was about 48.5%. Every of those seasons he was top5 in points per game, while also shooting 75% from the ft line on 10 attempts per game. And Malone didn't play strictly in the paint, he could/would take/hit plenty of jumpers. After 1983 I won't say much because like I've said, he dropped his production considerably (inexplicably).
Yea, he wasn't a good passer but don't underrate his defense, mainly in 1983 he was able to raise his defensive game up being one of the best defensive centers in the league having a great defensive season.[/B][/QUOTE]
There's no arguing the result of Moses joining Doc. Needles to say it was a great success. They rightfully dominated the NBA.
Most of my points above referred to the 76ers before they got Moses, and how Philly compared to other teams with either great and better front courts or better and great centers(KAJ). These two teams were hindrances to Philly dominating before Moses got to Philly. So these were the relevant years.
Since we don't seem to agree how good Boston's front court really was as compared to Philly, let's say take a look at an objective source from Wiki:
"He was known as a versatile center, using his 7' size and speed to contain opposing players, launch precise shots from outside the paint, and finish fast breaks - the latter uncanny for a man of his stature. Fellow Hall of Famer and teammate from 1985 to 1987 Bill Walton once called Parish the "greatest shooting big man of all time", perhaps because of Parish's field goal and free throw shooting ability, an unusual talent among most centers. His trademark was his high-release jump shot, which traversed a very high arc before falling.
In 1996, Parish, along with teammates Larry Bird and Kevin McHale, were selected as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History. In 1998, in honor of his achievements, the Celtics retired Parish's famous #00 jersey number at halftime of a Celtics-Pacers game; this allowed Larry Bird, then head coach of the Pacers, to participate in the ceremony. He was enshrined in the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2003. He presently remains active as the Celtics' team consultant and mentor for current Celtics big men."
While Philly's front court was certainly not chopped liver, you can see from the quote above that Bird played with all time players in Parish and Mchale. This cannot be said with Erving's help pre 1983.
Mcginnis was a stud in the ABA, but he never quite had the right chemistry playing with doc. Bobby Jones was a great defender, and I have nothing bad to say about him, but he isn't a hall of famer yet, and certainly isn't a top 50 player.
Again, on Moses, as compared to other great centers of the time(KAJ, Gilmore), I still believe he would have a lower FG%, but I won't belabor this point since I haven't looked at the numbers lately.
He wasn't a great passer, and Moses' defense was his great rebounding. I feel bad to say anything derogatory about Moses, so I will let my key points stand. We can agree to disagree there.
On my top 25 list I have ranked Moses over Erving because of this higher peak in the NBA and monstrous domination of his peers from '81-'83. On the other hand you can't really say Julius was ever the best player in the league in the NBA. That's my opinion.
Still I've come to realize it's much better to rank players through tiers. Moses and Erving are on the same tier and it's definitely debatable who should be ranked higher. The Doctor like Bird and Magic was never about stats. He's one of the greatest teammates, leaders, and intangible players in general and despite his athleticism it was Erving's intelligence that made him so formidable.
There is IMHO a lot of evidence that had Julius played with a great frontcourt ala Bird that he would have won 2-3 titles in the NBA. In fact there's little doubt in my mind. Circumstances matter more than people will admit.
Ultimately though you have to make rankings based on accomplishments. That's the only objective way, the rest is hypotheticals.