Raptors Rotation

From looking at the off-season moves, I believe that Handsbrough may well be able to work his way in as a consistent rotation big, primarily as the back-up to JV. Although him and Patterson are a bit small together, they will be going up against other second units. I think that he can play with Amir as well, but not with JV, as spacing would be bad. Could play a bit of power forward with Amir at Center vs. second units.
Best combo's up front, 2pat and Val, Amir and Val, Amir and 2pat and then Amir/ Hands and Hands/2pat. We will definitely see JJ playing some small ball 4, when match-ups dictate.

I really think they still need his toughness and ability to get them extra possessions and play a bit of an enforcer role.

Minutes lowry 32 Vaz 16
Derozen 26 Sweet lou 15 Vaz 7
Ross 30 Derozen 7 JJ 11
Amir 18 Patterson 24 JJ 6
Val 30 Amir 6 Handsbrough 12
Derozen 33, Lowry 32, Val 30, Derozen 30, Amir 24, Patterson 24
Vaz 23, JJ 17, Sweet Lou, 15, Handsbrough 12

Ten player rotation. Spurs like distribution of minutes to use their quality of depth. Playoff rotation may cut down a bit, but this is what I see. Thoughts?

[QUOTE=barkleynash]

<snip>

Minutes Ross 30 Derozen 7 JJ 11

<snip>

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Really thoughtful post :cheers:

I think this is the one area I disagree; further that you think Hansborough will work his way into being an important cog.

Ross seems to have the tools. Ross has worked hard this summer. Ross seems to be able to "go off".

But I think the real "dark horse" in the rotation is JJ.

JJ seems to be noted to play D and rebound for his position. But JJ probably had to play that role on that Memphis team. Its they way they play.

JJ himself was a 20th(?) first round selection and I "think" he can shoot.

I think he proved it here (as a Raptor) though he was bit mercurial in his shot selection and trying to do too much on his own on a team that lacked leadership and identity. Now the team has leadership (Lowry and Derozan - incidentally Derozan being his good friend and the guy that brought him back to this team). Now this team has an offence scheme that seems competitive even if open to questions about Casey's rotation. This team was something like 3rd ranked in efficiency in the Eastern Conference.

I will go out and make the prediction that Ross may only pull in 27 minutes a game (due to inconsistency some nights?) and J[U]J will not only pull in all the other minutes at SF ; JJ will play the critical crunch minutes at end of tight games and if Ross is is inconsistent JJ will get starter minutes.[/U]

[QUOTE=barkleynash]
[B]Derozen 33[/B], Lowry 32, Val 30, [B]Derozen 30[/B], Amir 24, Patterson 24
Vaz 23, JJ 17, Sweet Lou, 15, Handsbrough 12
[/QUOTE]

I suppose second DeRozan is meant to be Ross ?

And yes it sounds about right, atleast for reg season. For playoffs it's different obviously due to matchups etc.

I'd prefer to see either Nogueira or Stiemsma prove capable of getting at least 10 minutes of backup C time and cut out Hansbrough altogether. I don't see much value in Hansbrough given the other players capable of playing PF/C.

[QUOTE=Qwyjibo]I'd prefer to see either Nogueira or Stiemsma prove capable of getting at least 10 minutes of backup C time and cut out Hansbrough altogether. I don't see much value in Hansbrough given the other players capable of playing PF/C.[/QUOTE]

Again I agree with you Q.

This is unspoken in my post but is part and parcel of why I think JJ is the more important cog.

I don't think Stiemsma will make the cut simply put unless Cedric is traded.

Then I would actually prefer to see Bebe soak up minutes. With his international experience I assume logically that he will be very "competent off the bench for limited minutes". I mean the offence will not be run through the secondary center and the responsibility is to rebound and block the lanes.

Seems to be a consensus that most players wanna see Hands gone, or simply kept as injury insurance/depth. I'm fine with that, but I just don't see how either the stiemer, or bebe will be able to contribute on both sides of the ball. Hands can score a bit, offensive rebound and defends the pick and roll quite well in a league that is filled with 4-5 pick and rolls per possession.

If JJ takes those minutes and it slides Amir to center a bit, I am fine with that too.
Not sure how JJ and Derozen will play too much together, as spacing is bad. Especially if it with the starters. I like a unit of Vaz, Sweet Lou, JJ, Patterson and Val as a second unit. I didn't like Val playing such long spurts of minutes.
I actually quite liked the 5-5-5 that Rivers had KG playing. I'd prefer it to be something in the area 7-4-5 though. Val would be more effective in shorter bursts. He gasses out when his shifts are too long and gets into foul trouble.

[QUOTE=barkleynash]Not sure how JJ and Derozen will play too much together, as spacing is bad. Especially if it with the starters. [/QUOTE]

How so ? Curious ?

Derozan Ross space fine.

In fact given JJ's sort of "banger as a small" I would think it may even open up lanes for DD. JJ wont be hoovering out as a 3 point option and his movement into the key may actually trigger a d- rotation and open that lane.

Last year JJ shot 46 ~ FG % which infers a lot of close baskets. His 3 pt ~ 25% seems to suggest that he doesn't take many. He didn't play huge minutes for example but even in <50% game he pulled down 3+ rebounds on average which is double some Centers that use to star on this team. However I fully admit I did not "watch his game" last year.

This is the opposite of Rudy who hovered around the key to outside - and took all kinds of mid range jumpers ? No ?

I think JJ "try to do it by himself" reputation from Toronto is past. I think "what little I saw of his game" plus this being Lowry/Derozan's team means JJ may actually be the real darkhorse player. His added toughness is an element Ross may be lacking and his experience may give him the consistency the TR also struggled with.

Now if Ross comes in best game shape ever and blows the doors out of the 3 position ... JJ as off the bench is awesome as well.

---

Hansboro is a fine player and tough but I think he is Amir's 3rd sub as much as a back up Center. Amir breaks down now a days.

Like Q and others I would rather see minutes go to PP and Bebe to develop the inside toughness because Hansboro is not "mid-long term" future whereas Bebe is and PP "likely is".

Our best pairs last season:

[IMG]http://imgur.com/4lTNNQ2.png[/IMG]

Adding Lou on offense and James Johnson on defense should make things interesting. Backup center is a weakness, but I think we have capable enough bigs for the time to play at least 10-15 minutes. I would prefer Nogueria as much as possible, but I can see Stiemsma playing more too.

I too feel there's a trade on the way to probably shed some of the guys who are more than expandable on the team. Would like Stiemsma and Hamilton to both make the team. Cherry seems like the likely candidate to get cut.

I think JJ and Demar space fine when JJ is playing the four and brining a post player out to guard him. As a three man, I think teams will clog the lane. That's all I'm saying.

The lineup flexibility will be very nice. I don't mind an early wing sub if we are playing the likes of LeBron and Joe Johnson. Sub in JJ for Ross early (5 or 6 minutes in and then bring back Ross for Derozen. JJ and Patterson at the 3/4 will be very interchangeable.

I don't care what our wing rotation is, the important thing is that Salmons is gone.

[QUOTE=kwajo]I don't care what our wing rotation is, the important thing is that Salmons is gone.[/QUOTE]

Ironic no ?

Given the NBAstats above indicate DD and Salmons has the 3rd (tied for 3rd) best plus minus in terms of pairs :cheers:

I don't actually disagree with you..

The pairs stats also reflect that DD Salmons didn't get as many touches as say Ross DD. Statistics can be misleading.

But that is actually my point because I think JJ as a defense specialist at the 3 may in fact be the sleeper candidate on this team...

At this point of preseason, Handsbro is looking like the tenth man. If casey goes with a ten man regular season rotation, hands is likely to get some minutes.

I like the flexibility of this roster.

players that can multiple positions.
lowry 1 and 2 Vaz 1 and 2 Sweet Lou 1 and 2
ross 2 and 3. derozen 2 and 3
James Johnson 3 and 4
amir 4 and 5

Coach casey will have to figure out a sub pattern that gets best utilizes the skills of his bench players.

I think that Casey will have to go away from his traditional second unit playing all together and mix it up a bit.

One idea could be a 5, 5, 5 or 5, 5 ,6 sub pattern for JV. Similar to what doc used to run for KG.
I think Val is much better in shorter spurts. Amir plays a good chunk of minutes as the back-up center, which I think is perfect.

Or the alternative might be to have amir play 5, 4, 4, shifts. Still 26 minutes. He comes out early for 2pat, and comes back in at the five spot for Val with about 3 minutes left in the first q.

I think fields may be traded or bought out using the stretch provision. I really like the guy and feel horrible for him, but Jordan Hamilton and Stiesma fit roles on the team and. Fields is getting minimum burn in preseason, and I think is a great character guy.

Thoughts on the fifteenth man. If derozen or ross were to miss some time I think they might actually start Jordan Hamilton, so as not to disrupt their bench back court of Sweet lou and Vaz. Unless they insert JJ into the line-up which is a possibility too.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Amir coming off the bench actually, not that he's been inadequate, but it can be better matchup

- Minimize the drop off at the 5 spot when Amir sub in for JV (rather than JV -> Hans/Hayes/Bebe)
- Amir could sub in at either 4/5, PP not so much
- PP showed he was capable of playing in the Brooklyn series
- PP would give better spacing, as much as Derozan's 3 has improved he's still not a huge threat outside

in essence it takes all the minutes away from Hands/Hayes, takes a little bit away from Amir (good thing considering his health), and more minutes for PP and James Johnson.

also the more time PP spends on the 4 the more we can have Demar at the 3, which helps with our backcourt logjam (GV and Lou)

I agree BK 33. I am fine with Amir starting, but coming out quickly for Patterson and then checking back in for Val as the back-up center.

I like Amir playing shifts of 5-4-4. Similar to what Garnett did with his minutes restrictions from doc.

Val I kinda like playing 8-4-4. I do not like either of these guys playing extended minutes as the back end of their shifts are usually ineffective. Casey has to be more thoughtful about how he subs.

Surely playing 3 shifts per half is doable, as Val would freeze up while sitting or too long. Give im an 8 minute shift, let him rest for 4, bring him back in for 4, give him another quick breather and then bring him back in to close out.

The raps looks to be a very solid 10 deep, and Casey has no reason to play any old favs like Salmons or Alan Anderson. Ujiri has taken those guys away from him. He has fields, who probably only plays if an injury happens to JJ. He can play the same role as JJ, only to a lesser degree.
Hands has surprised with his change of attitude and acceptance of a role on the team.

No raptor team, to date, has ever had the depth that this roster possesses.
2 deep at every position and veteran third stringers with character in fields and hayes and stiesma. As well as two promising youngsters with upside in Bruno and Bebe.
Next summer will be very interesting with players coming off the books like sweet lou, hands, amir, hayes and fields. With the emergence of Scott in Atlanta, maybe the hawks won't have the money to pay millsap. I'd take millsap in a second.

[QUOTE=barkleynash]
No raptor team, to date, has ever had the depth that this roster possesses.
2 deep at every position .......As well as two promising youngsters with upside in Bruno and Bebe.


Next summer will be very interesting with players coming off the books like sweet lou, hansboro, amir, hayes and fields. With the emergence of Scott in Atlanta, maybe the hawks won't have the money to pay millsap. I'd take millsap in a second.[/QUOTE]

Good Post.

Next Season is the real question mark given the guys coming off the cap / roster and the players the Raptors may target AND two middle first round draft picks AND the all star game coming to town.

Assuming Hansboro, Chuck Hayes, Fields are net cuts to the team roster ~ $16 Million

Assuming Amir and Lou come back for mostly the same money or modest decreases and the guaranteed raises accoss the board primarily for Val , Ross but a little to Vasquez (I recall), Bruno, Bebe etc..

~ $13M

[B][U]Targets[/U][/B]

1) The obvious name everyone including Drake dreams of. Probably requires a sign and trade and players back to make it work; even if he would potentially consider Toronto

2) Millsap ??

3) Greg Monroe ??

4) Tristan Thompson ?? Get the other Canadian kid that is actually contributing every night ?

5) Marc Gasou ?