Flpiii found ORIGINAL 3 seconds rule from NBA rulebook... PAINT-CAMPING WAS LEGAL

[SIZE="3"]HERE ARE THE ACTUAL RULES, WORD-FOR-WORD FROM NBA RULEBOOK[/SIZE] (courtesy Flpiii):

[url]http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html[/url]

[SIZE="5"][B](2) Guidelines for Defensive Coverage
[/B][/SIZE]
[I]a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds. The defensive player must re-establish a position with both feet out of the "Insidelane" to be considered as having legally cleared the restricted area.

[B]b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.
[/B]
c. An offensive player without the ball may not be double-teamed from the weakside. Only the player with the ball may be double-teamed by a weakside defensive player. Weakside and strongside restrictions shall extend from the baseline to the midcourt line.

d. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "middle defensive area." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.

e. When a weakside offensive player is above the free throw line extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" extended for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is below the free throw line extended, his defensive man must vacate the "inside lane" unless his man is positioned adjacent (posted up) to the threesecond lane extended. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a strongside offensive player is above the free throw line extended "upper defensive area, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds. When an offensive player on the strongside is below the free throw line extended "middle defensive area," his defender must take a position below the free throw line extended immediately or double-team the ball as soon as the ball crosses midcourt. There is no 2.9 time limit. If the offensive player relocates to a position above the free throw line extended, his defender may take a similar position no farther than one defensive area away within 2.9 seconds. In all of the situations above, a defensive player may always aggressively double-team the ball regardless of his previous position on the floor.

f. When an offensive player takes a position above the tip of the circle, with or without the ball, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) from him than the "upper defensive area."

g. A defensive player must follow his weakside offensive man, switch to another man at an area of intersection, or double-team the ball. There is no 2.9-second time limit on this play. A defensive player must execute one of these three options or he is guilty of an illegal defense immediately.

h. A defensive player must follow his strongside offensive man, switch to another man at an area of intersection, or double-team the ball. There is a 2.9-second time limit on this play which commences when the defensive player reaches the weakside and "opens up."

i. A double team is when two or more defenders aggressively pursue a player with the ball to a position close enough for a held ball to occur. Failure to comply with paragraphs (a) through (i) above will result in an Illegal Defense violation.[/I]


[B][SIZE="3"][U]CLIFFS OF THE RULES[/U][/SIZE][/B]:

The rules regarding how long a defender can stay in the lane are different depending on whether the offensive player is on the SIDES of the paint (outside the lane on either side), or whether they are at the top of the key above where players shoot free throws.

[B]Regarding when the offensive player is outside the lane on either SIDE of the paint[/B]: Rule 2b (bolded above) states that defenders could camp in the lane if their man was within 3 feet of the SIDES of the free-throw lane... This is the rule that allowed defenders to camp in the lane without having to tippy-toe... Today, players must be within "armslength", which is not long enough to reach a player outside the paint, [I]let alone 3 feet outside[/I].. and you can imagine how lax the refs were about judging the 3 feet - no wonder defenders frequently camped in the lane while guarding a 3-point shooter!

[B]Regarding when a player is at top of the key above where players shoot FT's[/B]: Rules 2d and 2e state that when a defender's man is at the top of the key above the foul line, the rules are essentially the same as today - players can sag back off their man, but if they drop back all the way to the paint, they can't be in there for more than 2.9 seconds.

So you literally cut and paste your entire posts to create threads now? GTFO. And it was a T after 1 second if your man was above the 3. So much dumb in all your posts.

okay, so this proves that eras were different, something that all reasonable fans already knew:confusedshrug:

also i'm assuming this is the older rules, do you have the newer rules? would be interested in seeing the differences

In the future you should consider denoting *defensive* in your thread titles or headlines... because there are idiots out there that won't read your post, only the headline, and your headline (though it doesn't intend to) perpetuates a myth. I hear shit all the time on my Youtube channel that Wilt in videos like my offensive scouting tool, "camped in the paint" (on offense) which is entirely false. 3 in the key is the reason for the key's entire existence. Offensively, the rule is very much as identical then as it is today.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]So you literally cut and paste your entire posts to create threads now? GTFO. And it was a T after 1 second if your man was above the 3. So much dumb in all your posts.[/QUOTE]
jfc... posters on here have short attention spans - since you apparently didn't read past the cliffs, i switched it around and posted the cliffs LAST, so you can see the entire rule first.

The original rule says defenders could stay in the lane as long as their man was within 3 feet of either side of the paint.

Think about that - the offensive player can be within 3 feet of either side of the paint - with hash marks on the baseline to mark the 3 feet... you can only imagine how lax refs were about the 3 feet... which is why defenders could frequently camp in the lane while defending 3-point shooters.

The original rules confirm that defenders in previous eras could camp in the paint, which would explain why they never tippy-toed in and out of the paint like today's defenders must do.
.

[QUOTE=Kvnzhangyay]

okay, so this proves that eras were different, something that all reasonable fans already knew:confusedshrug:

also i'm assuming this is the older rules, [B]do you have the newer rules[/B]? would be interested in seeing the differences

[/QUOTE]
the NEW rule says a defender must be within ARMSLENGTH to stay in the lane - see the 2nd sentence of the first paragraph here at nba.com: [url]http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html[/url]

whereas the old rule says defenders can stay in the lane as long as their man is within 3 feet of either side of the paint... with hash marks on the baseline to mark the 3 feet.

imagine how lax refs were about the 3 foot hashmarks... which is why defenders could frequently [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]camp in the paint while guarding 3-point shooters[/u][/url].

[QUOTE=3ball]so what's the deal here...

looks like we have confirmed that defenders could camp in the lane in previous eras.[/QUOTE]
Well not exactly.

You still weren't allowed to "camp" that's a bit of an exaggeration... it was just easier to stay inside the lane - defensively. The 3 defensive second rule still existed, there's just a modification today that intends to tighten up the distance between the defensive player and the offensive player.

Also, again just for readers skimming, offensive 3 seconds was an identical rule as today. So there is definitely no camping allowed for offensive players in any form in any era, that rule has remained unchanged.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]

You still weren't allowed to "camp" that's a bit of an exaggeration... it was just easier to stay inside the lane - defensively.

[/quote]
the rule says defenders could stay in the lane if their man was within THREE FEET of either side of the paint - how is this not [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134][u]camping in the lane[/u][/url]?


[quote]

there's just a modification today that intends to tighten up the distance between the defensive player and the offensive player.

[/QUOTE]
you make it sound like the NBA made a minor adjustment in tightening up the distance - the distance between "armslength" and 3 feet outside the lane is significant, not minor.

it's the difference between needing to tippy-toe in and out of the lane to remain in armslength reach, and just being able to stand there.

and the rule says that hashmarks on the baseline denote the 3 feet... imagine how lax refs were about the 3 foot hashmarks... which is why defenders could frequently [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]camp in the paint while guarding 3-point shooters[/u][/url].

[QUOTE=3ball]the rule says defenders could stay in the lane if their man was within 3 feet of either side of the paint - how is this not camping in the lane?



you make it sound like the NBA made a minor adjustment in tightening up the distance - the distance between "armslength" and 3 feet outside the lane is a big distance and not minor.

and the rule says that hashmarks on the baseline denote the 3 feet... imagine how lax refs were about the 3 foot hashmarks... which is why defenders could frequently [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]camp in the paint while guarding 3-point shooters[/u][/url].
.[/QUOTE]
Camping is still possible. It's just more difficult.

I'm not disputing that the change is significant. But let's be clear, it is a tightening up of the radius of how close the defender needs to be to the offensive player before he gets whistled for 3 seconds. It is not a black and white "camping was allowed then, and is not allowed now". Camping is allowed then, so long as the defensive player abided by the rules then. Camping is allowed TODAY so long as the defensive player now stays more tightly glued to the offensive player. It is going to happen much more rarely today, granted said rules. But again this isn't a cut and dry "camping was allowed then but now it is not" scenario.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]

It's no more camping in the lane than the defenders today who DO stay within 3 feet of an offensive player planted near the key are camping.

[/QUOTE]
you are grossly underestimating how big the paint is.

[B]it's math and measurements - a player's arm is 3 feet long - the paint itself from one side to the other is SIXTEEN FEET, plus 3 more feet that was allowed outside the paint... think about that.[/B]

unless a defender is standing right near the edge of the paint, they cannot be within armslength of an offensive player that is outside the paint.


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif[/IMG]


look at long-armed mark eaton on bill cartwrght - cartwrght is out of armslength and could still go another 3 feet outside the lane before eaton is illegal.

notice how eaton isn't at all worried about tippy-toeing.. it's night and day difference from todaay's game, and to argue that the two environments are similar in this specific regard, is just not true.

the [I]rules[/I] say players in previous eras could camp in the lane as long as their man was within 3 feet of either side of the paint, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134]and the eyetest backs up the rule[/url].
.

it's not camping that even matters. It is the stupid and idiotic circle around the basket........ it's the no-touch area that is so stupid and idiotic

it should be done away with instantly for being stupid and idiotic.

did david stern lose all his testosterone? because that stupid and idiotic circle looks just like a junior high girl's league rule run by a feeble old man who went stupid and idiotic.

NBA = No Boys Allowed.

Not only is that stupid and idiotic circle bad for the game but it is positively ruining careers.

Guys like Z BO and Kendrick Perkins and Nikola Pekovic and Greg Monroe are getting the full shaft on their careers because they ain't being allowed to do their job.

Go stand out in the corner and boink 3s, Chumpie Boy.... because if you come in here you're going to have to prove your mettle.

It's a Manly League that should be for [B]Men who Patrol the Paint[/B].

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]it's not camping that even matters. It is the stupid and idiotic circle around the basket........ it's the no-touch area that is so stupid and idiotic

it should be done away with instantly for being stupid and idiotic.

did david stern lose all his testosterone? because that stupid and idiotic circle looks just like a junior high girl's league rule run by a feeble old man who went stupid and idiotic.

NBA = No Boys Allowed.

Not only is that stupid and idiotic circle bad for the game but it is positively ruining careers.

Guys like Z BO and [B]Kendrick Perkins[/B] and Nikola Pekovic and Greg Monroe are getting the full shaft on their careers because they ain't being allowed to do their job.

Go stand out in the corner and boink 3s, Chumpie Boy.... because if you come in here you're going to have to prove your mettle.

It's a Manly League that should be for [B]Men who Patrol the Paint[/B].[/QUOTE]

While I agree the NBA should make the game slightly more physical (at LEAST find some way of getting rid of flopping- getting rid of flopping by itself should promote physicality), the NBA is still pretty dang physical

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]it's not camping that even matters. It is the stupid and idiotic circle around the basket........ it's the no-touch area that is so stupid and idiotic

it should be done away with instantly for being stupid and idiotic.

did david stern lose all his testosterone? because that stupid and idiotic circle looks just like a junior high girl's league rule run by a feeble old man who went stupid and idiotic.

NBA = No Boys Allowed.

Not only is that stupid and idiotic circle bad for the game but it is positively ruining careers.

Guys like Z BO and Kendrick Perkins and Nikola Pekovic and Greg Monroe are getting the full shaft on their careers because they ain't being allowed to do their job.

Go stand out in the corner and boink 3s, Chumpie Boy.... because if you come in here you're going to have to prove your mettle.

It's a Manly League that should be for [B]Men who Patrol the Paint[/B].[/QUOTE]

I don't know why, but I smell a lot of homo-eroticism in this post.

Flpiii raping retards with his research. Going full-on Chicago Manual of Style on these fools. :biggums:

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]

it's not camping that even matters.

[/QUOTE]
i don't understand why people are so afraid to admit that players could camp in the paint in previous eras - the rules say they could, as long as their man was within 3 feet of either side of the paint... naturally, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134]the eyetest backs up the rule[/url], not that we need to verify it, since the rule already says it in black and white.

more importantly, teams didn't shoot 3's in previous eras, so MOST SHOTS WERE TAKEN WITHIN 3 FEET OF THE PAINT.... that means players, especially big men, could camp in the paint for entire possessions, as long as their man remained within 3 feet of either side of the paint.

and the rule says that hashmarks on the baseline denote the 3 feet... imagine how lax refs were about the 3 foot hashmarks... which is why defenders could frequently [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]camp in the paint while guarding 3-point shooters[/u][/url].

honestly, i'm about to be done with this forum... posters are actually quite dumb and can't understand advanced concepts, so if you post something remotely nuanced, it gets misunderstood... most importantly, even when you definitively prove something like we've done here proving players could camp in the lane in previous eras, posters will be immature and call you names.

this forum is for dummies.

[QUOTE=fpliii]

There were all kinds of rules about staying above and below the FT line.

[/quote]
for this scenario, the rules today are very close to the rules in previous eras - if the offensive player is above the FT line at the top of the key, the defender can't dip into the paint for more than 3 seconds... this part of the rule hasn't changed much over the eras.


[quote]

But 2b is interesting. I think it's nice to have clear language about distance permitted when players are within the 3 foot hatchmarks. I think in that regard, it confirms that defense *in the paint* was allowed to be tougher from 81-82 through 00-01 than 01-02 to the present.

[/QUOTE]
do you think there is merit to the following math - the paint is 16 feet wide, and a defender's arm is only 3 feet - this indicates that if an offensive player is outside the paint, a defender can't REMAIN in the paint under today's rules, unless they are on the very edge of the paint, which would allow their 3-foot arm to reach their man and fulfill today's "armslength" requirement...

the requirement of being within armslength is why today's defenders have to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.


[QUOTE]

Still though, I think spacing has a huge effect. The fact that there weren't as many shooters (particularly in the 80s, before the 3pt shot was adapted) made things congested.

[/QUOTE]
that's what people don't understand - the fact that no one was a good shooter back then, made the paint defense tougher because defenders didn't have to guard the perimeter... the eye test fully backs this up... what am i missing here?

I feel like we need to invest more money into our schools. Reading comprehension is shit in this country.

[QUOTE=3ball]that's what people don't understand - the fact that no one was a good shooter back then, made the paint defense tougher because defenders didn't have to guard the perimeter... the eye test fully backs this up... what am i missing here?[/QUOTE]
A bit OT, but that hurt Wilt, Baylor, and Dr. J (during his first few years in the NBA) especially, even before the 81-82 rules. Wilt had defenders sagging on him (especially after Arizin retired, and before he was traded to the Sixers), and Baylor/Erving had little room to maneuver getting to the hole.

[QUOTE=3ball]this forum is for dummies[/QUOTE]
Then this is the perfect place for you, dude.

I may have missed a rule change, but I thought Zone Defense was currently legal? Does that not include allowing defenders to stay in the paint? Or is the 3-second defensive rule still in effect with zone?

[QUOTE=kshutts1]I may have missed a rule change, but I thought Zone Defense was currently legal? Does that not include allowing defenders to stay in the paint? Or is the 3-second defensive rule still in effect with zone?[/QUOTE]
Here's the current rule (01-02 to the present; rule in the OP was in effect from 81-82 through 00-01):

[QUOTE]Section VII—Defensive Three-Second Rule

a. The count starts when the offensive team is in control of the ball in the frontcourt.

b. Any defensive player, who is positioned in the 16-foot lane or the area extending 4 feet past the lane endline, must be actively guarding an opponent within three seconds. Actively guarding means being within arms length of an offensive player and in a guarding position.

c. Any defensive player may play any offensive player. The defenders may double-team any player.

d. The defensive three-second count is suspended when: (1) a player is in the act of shooting, (2) there is a loss of team control, (3) the defender is actively guarding an opponent, (4) the defender completely clears the 16-foot lane or (5) it is imminent the defender will become legal.

e. If the defender is guarding the player with the ball, he may be located in the 16-foot lane. This defender is not required to be in an actively guarding/arms distance position. If another defender actively guards the player with the ball, the original defender must actively guard an opponent or exit the 16-foot lane. Once the offensive player passes the ball, the defender must actively guard an opponent or exit the 16-foot lane.

PENALTY: A technical foul shall be assessed. The offensive team retains possession on the sideline at the free throw line extended nearest the point of interruption. The shot clock shall remain the same as when play was interrupted or reset to 14 seconds, whichever is greater.

If a violation is whistled during a successful field goal attempt, the violation shall be ignored and play shall resume as after any successful basket.[/QUOTE]

source: [url]https://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/2014-15-nba-rule-book.pdf[/url]

A pure zone wouldn't have defensive 3 seconds (they still do today, that's why if you listen closely, you'll sometimes hear guys yelling "2 9!!" when teammates need to leave the paint).

[QUOTE=Smook A.]Then this is the perfect place for you, dude.[/QUOTE]


No Smook don't say that. He said he was "almost done" with this forum we can only hope he follows through on his words.

[QUOTE=Smook A.]

Then this is the perfect place for you, dude.

[/QUOTE]
you right.

this is a good place for me... we're all dummmies at one point or another... heck, before i began to fully understand the way today's gaame worked with the spacing, i swore anthony davis would be another john salleey.. i believe that's exactly what i said.. many times.

on this topic however, i do think i'm on the right track - but my argument has never been that one era's OVERALL defense is better than another's... i've never said that... instead, my argument has only been that it isn't any harder to score today, than in prevoius eras - defensive effectiveness remains relatively stable over the eras as teams adjust and as rule changes take some things away but add others - i've made threads about this.

i've only railed against people saying today's defenses are BETTER... so i point out things like how [I]a strong-side floood is not applicable when there is no spacing[/I].. anyone think the weakside guy needs to be brought over to the strongside here?... that's like telling a girl with massive FF's that she needs a boob job.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball]you right.

this is a good place for me... we're all dummmies at one point or another... heck, before i began to fully understand the way today's gaame worked with the spacing, i swore anthony davis would be another john salleey.. i believe that's exactly what i said.. many times.

on this topic however, i do think i'm on the right track - but my argument has never been that one era's OVERALL defense is better than another's... i've never said that... instead, my argument has only been that it isn't any harder to score today, than in prevoius eras - defensive effectiveness remains relatively stable over the eras as teams adjust and as rule changes take some things away but add others - i've made threads about this.

i've only railed against people saying today's defenses are BETTER... so i point out things like how [I]a strong-side floood is not applicable when there is no spacing[/I].. anyone think the weakside guy needs to be brought over to the strongside here?... that's like telling a girl with massive FF's that she needs a boob job.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Okay, here we can agree.

Defenses today aren't necessarily better, but they can be different at times. In past eras, the paint can be crowded at times because offensive sets were geared to take the closest shot to the rim, so most off. players converged around the paint.

Today, it can be wide open, at times, because off. players have learned to react to this by spreading the court, and shooters are better today than they have ever been.

[QUOTE=3ball]i don't understand why people are so afraid to admit that players could camp in the paint in previous eras - the rules say they could, as long as their man was within 3 feet of either side of the paint... naturally, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134]the eyetest backs up the rule[/url], not that we need to verify it, since the rule already says it in black and white.

more importantly, teams didn't shoot 3's in previous eras, so MOST SHOTS WERE TAKEN WITHIN 3 FEET OF THE PAINT.... that means players, especially big men, could camp in the paint for entire possessions, as long as their man remained within 3 feet of either side of the paint.

and the rule says that hashmarks on the baseline denote the 3 feet... imagine how lax refs were about the 3 foot hashmarks... which is why defenders could frequently [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]camp in the paint while guarding 3-point shooters[/u][/url].

honestly, i'm about to be done with this forum... posters are actually quite dumb and can't understand advanced concepts, so if you post something remotely nuanced, it gets misunderstood... most importantly, even when you definitively prove something like we've done here proving players could camp in the lane in previous eras, posters will be immature and call you names.

this forum is for dummies.[/QUOTE]
You missed the nuance yourself. And it wasn't even nuanced.

It isn't camping that is important, it's the stupid circle around the basket. What's so hard to understand about it?

You think you know more than anybody on Ish? Tell us, O Wise One, how Kareem "camped in the paint" against Dave Cowens. How'd that work out for him?
You think nobody watched Calvin Murphy & Tiny & Lucas and Earl Monroe drive right through your 70s & 80s paint with great ease, just like moving through air?

You think all Chamberlain did was ballhoggery? Did he play defense in Philly? Did you ever watch Artis Gilmore or Dan Issel line up on Mel Daniels?

Back on up with your arrogance 3ball there's guys on this board that know more or saw more or played more hoops than 90% of the planet. [b]They aren't bothering to post on your threads.[/b] Do you wonder why that is?

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]You missed the nuance yourself. And it wasn't even nuanced.

It isn't camping that is important, it's the stupid circle around the basket. What's so hard to understand about it?

You think you know more than anybody on Ish? Tell us, O Wise One, how Kareem "camped in the paint" against Dave Cowens. How'd that work out for him?
You think nobody watched Calvin Murphy & Tiny & Lucas and Earl Monroe drive right through your 70s & 80s paint with great ease, just like moving through air?

You think all Chamberlain did was ballhoggery? Did he play defense in Philly? Did you ever watch Artis Gilmore or Dan Issel line up on Mel Daniels?

Back on up with your arrogance 3ball there's guys on this board that know more or saw more or played more hoops than 90% of the planet. [b]They aren't bothering to post on your threads.[/b] Do you wonder why that is?[/QUOTE]
what's your point - i posted the actual rules and i'm right, so stop your whining just because the rules back up everything i've ever said on the topic.

i'll keep posting the truth, and you'll keep whining.... and most ex-players don't know much about the game, other than playing... i'm an exception.... aw, did that make you mad?

[QUOTE=3ball]what's your point - i posted the actual rules and i'm right, so stop your whining just because the rules back up everything i've ever said on the topic.

i'll keep posting the truth, and you'll keep whining.... and most ex-players don't know much about the game, other than playing... i'm an exception.... aw, did that make you mad?[/QUOTE]

no bro I don't get mad from a forum. Nor do I disagree about the paint in today's nba.
But you overstate your argument and drone on and on endlessly. It's boring bro try a new topic

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]no bro I don't get mad from a forum. Nor do I disagree about the paint in today's nba.
But you overstate your argument and drone on and on endlessly. It's boring bro try a new topic[/QUOTE]
glad you agree, but you are the one that came on here responding to me, by saying paint-camping didn't matter and it was all about the circle or some dumb shit, and then insulting me.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]

the paint can be crowded at times because offensive sets were geared to take the closest shot to the rim, so most off. players converged around the paint.

[/QUOTE]
the tippy-toeing in and out of the paint that we see in today's game has nothing to do with 3-point shooting - it is ONLY a result of today's defensive 3 seconds rule that requires defenders be within [I]armslength[/I] of their man to stay in the lane.

a man's arm is 3 feet long... so under today's 3 seconds rule, if an offensive player is 3 feet outside the paint, his defender must be right on the very edge of the paint in order to fulfill today's requirement of being within armslength.

it's spelled out in the NBA rulebook in black and white.

in previous eras, defenders could stay in the lane if their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint on either side - the paint is 16 FEET WIDE - so defenders could be 19 feet away from their man and stay in the paint, which is way more than the 3 feet away indicated by today's armslength requirement.

and remember, the rulebook states that mere hash marks on the baseline mark the 3 ft distance outside the paint on each side of the lane... [i]it's just a hash mark[/I] - refs were not like "oh, it looks like he's FOUR feet outside the hash mark, maybe even FIVE... time to call defensive 3 secs!!!"... heck no.. they didn't monitor it at all, which is why defenders frequently camped in the lane [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]while their man was behind the 3-point line[/u][/url].
.

Biggest difference is the frequency and proficiency with which PF's and centers shoot the 3 now, it makes 3 second calls more apparent and easier to make.

I most of those gifs there's such a mass a bodies in a spall space who's going to even be paying attention to 3 secs?

Nowadays you run a 1 four flat set (for eg.) and there's no way anyone can camp in the paint without it being obvious.

the rules state in black and white, that defenders in today's game cannot be in the paint unless they are within "armslength" of their man - so this would be 3 feet, since a man's arm is 3 feet long.. so today's players must be within 3 feet of their man to stay in the lane.

in previous eras, defenders could stay in the lane if their man was 3 feet outside the lane on either side of the paint - the paint is 16 feet wide, so defenders could literally be 19 feet away from their man, and still remain in the paint.

these are the facts... and this is why today's defenders must tippy-toe to ensure they stay out of the lane whenever they are out of 3-foot armslength reach.

otoh, defenders in previous eras never had to tippy-toe or worry about getting out of the paint like today's players do, because they could be 19 feet away from their man and still stay in the lane - no need to tippy-toe under those circumstances.. :confusedshrug:
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[QUOTE=3ball]for this scenario, the rules today are very close to the rules in previous eras - if the offensive player is above the FT line at the top of the key, the defender can't dip into the paint for more than 3 seconds... this part of the rule hasn't changed much over the eras.



do you think there is merit to the following math - the paint is 16 feet wide, and a defender's arm is only 3 feet - this indicates that if an offensive player is outside the paint, a defender can't REMAIN in the paint under today's rules, unless they are on the very edge of the paint, which would allow their 3-foot arm to reach their man and fulfill today's "armslength" requirement...

the requirement of being within armslength is why today's defenders have to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.



that's what people don't understand - the fact that no one was a good shooter back then, made the paint defense tougher because defenders didn't have to guard the perimeter... the eye test fully backs this up... what am i missing here?[/QUOTE]

Not the main point of this thread, but I disagree quite strongly with the suggestions that 80's players, and I suppose 70's and 90's too were overall weaker shooters. They simply had different skill sets. Today's advanced statistical analysts may de-emphasize contested mid range jumpers but they do so at their peril. Earlier eras took - and had much more skill in making - midrange shots, contested or not. In other words, more players could shoot 10-20 foot jumpers better than today's players -- because it WAS emphasized. At some point, analysts and basketball in general will hopefully realize that only emphasizing the most efficient and "valuable" shots at the expense of other scoring aspects erodes the skillset of players. This will especially be so, if the defensive rules are again relaxed to allow more aggressive play. More physical defenses would disrupt a lot of the "pretty" offenses and players we see today. And that's when an impact player would really need a complete scoring set, including a lethal mid range game.