Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Was an all star for ever single year of his career (94 meh..)

Led his team to wins over Magic, Jordan and Bird in significant series

Has the stats.. four straight years of 20/4/10 including a 21/5/14/2 season.. AND the playoff success

almost always raised his game in the playoffs, had possibly the most gutsy finals performance of all time in 88' for game 6. Changed his game and sacrificed stats for W's in 89 & 90 when the Pistons adopted a slower more methodical offense which didn't allow for Isiah to just run free

For me, I have Thomas over Stockton, and is a lot closer to Oscar than people think

Top 4 PG's all time would have to include Magic, Stockton, Oscar and Isiah IMO but I hardly hear this guy talked about anymore..

maybe it has something to do with his beefs with Jordan, Bird and Magic.. but Isiah was a fierce competitor and one of the toughest dudes to ever play the game

where do you rank Isiah Thomas

Isaiah Thomas is even more underrated

He's in my top-5 PGs. Probably slots in at 3 or 4.

who one starred this thread

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]who one starred this thread[/QUOTE]

Good question.

Ive got him ahead of Kobe :confusedshrug:

I rank him highly. And he is better than Stockon.

But he was never that dominant as long as Magic was nor did he win an mvp.

[QUOTE=navy]I rank him highly. And he is better than Stockon.

But he was never that dominant as long as Magic was nor did he win an mvp.[/QUOTE]

This is why context is always important. He competed with Magic, Bird, KAJ, Jordan for MVPs, while Curry is gonna get one competing with James Harden.

lol he was dominant as fk, he took over in stretches

Isiah's ankle game is, to me, the most impressive display from a player not at 100% in league history. I'll take it over Jordan's flu game every time.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]This is why context is always important. [B]He competed with Magic, Bird, KAJ, Jordan for MVPs[/B], while Curry is gonna get one competing with James Harden.[/QUOTE]

He didn't compete at all. His highest MVP finish was 5th in 1984. His only other top 10 finishers were 8th and a pair of 9ths. In the years Detroit reached the Finals he was 12th, 17th and 13th in MVP voting. Nor was he all-NBA in any of those three seasons.

The above is a key reason why he is in the top 20-25 group and outside the next group. He simply did not have the same individual success as the next tier of players, particularly during the years of Detroit's best team success. How many players have been the best player on a championship team and finished 17th and 13th in MVP voting? I think that says something. Usually a player like that would almost automatically at least be a top 5 or so MVP candidate on the strength of his team's performance.

Isiah's relative lack of individual success and his poor longevity are what hurt him.

All this is relatively speaking. He was an excellent player. He is one of the top 20 or 25 players in history. Yet we are comparing him to the next tier--people like Charles Barkley and K. Malone--and he deserves to rank below them.

Ive been telling these niguhz tha same shit. Isiah is definitely top 10.

[QUOTE=Real14]Ive been telling these niguhz tha same shit. Isiah is definitely top 10.[/QUOTE]

:whatever:

All-time? No.

[QUOTE=Real14]Ive been telling these niguhz tha same shit. [B]Isiah is definitely top 10.[/B][/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/14kwrhk.gif[/IMG]

Do you ever take a moment and think...maybe I won't say something stupid as **** today? Try it.

[QUOTE=Smoke117][IMG]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/14kwrhk.gif[/IMG]

Do you ever take a moment and think...maybe I won't say something stupid as **** for once? Try it.[/QUOTE]
Stop hating and give tha man his damn credit:coleman:

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]:whatever:

All-time? No.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem is top 10 but Isiah's not??:biggums: bullshit!:coleman:

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]

Led his team to wins over Magic, Jordan and Bird in significant series

Has the stats.. four straight years of 20/4/10 including a 21/5/14/2 season.. AND the playoff success

almost always raised his game in the playoffs, had possibly the most gutsy finals performance of all time in 88' for game 6. Changed his game and sacrificed stats for W's in 89 & 90 when the Pistons adopted a slower more methodical offense which didn't allow for Isiah to just run free

For me, I have Thomas over Stockton, and is a lot closer to Oscar than people think

Top 4 PG's all time would have to include Magic, Stockton, Oscar and Isiah IMO but I hardly hear this guy talked about anymore..

[/QUOTE]
See, that's what I don't get - Isiah DEFEATED a prime Larry, prime Magic, and prime Jordan.

3 of the top 5 players of all time.. Oh, and Kareem too.. 4 of the 5 top players of all time.

But to figure out why Isiah is underrated, you have to consider how the game of basketball actually works - a small point guard has never won an NBA championship while dominating his team's distribution of offensive win share - basically, a small point guard can't win a championship by undertaking too much of the playmaking duties for his team: [I]multiple playmaker teams[/I] (isiah's pistons, today's spurs) > [I]1-playmaker teams[/I] (CP3 and Nash's teams).

So while CP3 and Nash are stat-padding their way to 2nd round exits, Isiah was making sure his team-leading production fit into a true team concept, where his teammates retained sufficient playmaking responsibility for the team to maximize it's effectiveness against the better playoff competition.

While CP3 and Nash have both historically employed losing styles, Nash wasn't as good as CP3, so his stats declined in the playoffs, while CP3's don't fall much.. In Nash's case, just look at his WS/48 stats (WS/48 measures win shares, or how much a player contributes to his team's wins).. Nash's regular season WS/48 was 0.164, but it declined almost 20% to 0.133 in playoffs - this means a 62-win Phoenix team is more like a 50-win team in the playoffs..

Otoh, Isiah's WS/48 increased considerably in the playoffs - it increased 35% from 0.109 in regular season to 0.143 in the playoffs (higher than Nash's playoff WS/48).

[I]It shows how optimal Isiah's game was at the point guard position that in the playoffs, his team went up to that higher level specifically by coalescing around Isiah's skill, and getting more out of him[/I].
.

[QUOTE=Real14]Hakeem is top 10 but Isiah's not??:biggums: bullshit!:coleman:[/QUOTE]

If you want to be taken seriously this is no way to do so.

[QUOTE=Real14]Hakeem is top 10 but Isiah's not??:biggums: bullshit!:coleman:[/QUOTE]

I guess I can answer my own question for you: No.

I don't think Isiah is underrated at all! He's widely considered the GOAT small guard. He's also widely considered the 3rd GOAT PG. In terms of mainstream appeal, Isiah was among the top 5-7 stars in the league in the Golden Era. And to top it off he won back to back rings. So he had mainstream appeal, was fun as hell to watch, and won rings.

What hurts Isiah is the Bad Boys Pistons persona and his controversial remarks. It cost him his rightful place on the Dream Team. The team could have carried three point guards with Isiah, Stockton, and Magic. Many of the future US teams had three PG's anyway. Isiah would have become one of the elite guys to have an NBA title, NCAA title, and Olympic Gold Medal.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]If you want to be taken seriously this is no way to do so.[/QUOTE]
Who's your top 10?

[QUOTE=bizil]I don't think Isiah is underrated at all! He's widely considered the GOAT small guard. He's also widely considered the 3rd GOAT PG. In terms of mainstream appeal, Isiah was among the top 5-7 stars in the league. And to top it off he won back to back rings. So he had mainstream appeal, was fun as hell to watch, and won rings.

What hurts Isiah is the Bad Boys Pistons persona and his controversial remarks. [B] It cost him his rightful place on the Dream Team[/B]. The team could have carried three point guards with Isiah, Stockton, and Magic. Many of the future US teams had three PG's anyway. Isiah would have become one of the elite guys to have an NBA title, NCAA title, and Olympic Gold Medal.[/QUOTE]
That's why he's tha most underrated. People hated on tha best small man for years:facepalm

[QUOTE=Real14]Who's your top 10?[/QUOTE]

All-time? Pretty standard list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron

The 6 and 7 spots flip fairly frequently.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]I guess I can answer my own question for you: No.[/QUOTE]
Who's your top 10?

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]All-time? Pretty standard list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Bird
[B]9. Hakeem
10. LeBron[/B]

The 6 and 7 spots flip fairly frequently.[/QUOTE]

:coleman: but Isiah don't deserve to be on there?:biggums: ........:coleman:

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]Isiah's ankle game is, to me, the most impressive display from a player not at 100% in league history. I'll take it over Jordan's flu game every time.[/QUOTE]

[img]http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/60060/_1382477641.gif[/img]

I was gonna respond thinking it was Isaiah Thomas.

Dude's underrated cause he spanked Jordan's ass too many times. League f*cked him out of a title when Magic tripped him as well.

Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.

The phantom foul on Laimbeer is the only reason Isiah didn't get a three-peat.

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
[B]CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton[/B]

Then Zeke or KJ........[B]Peak Penny and Baron[/B] were better too.[/QUOTE]

:durantunimpressed:

We're talking greatness here, there's a lot more to that than how you judge their respective skill levels. Isiah was easily greater than all of the bold names, that's without getting into an argument about skill level.

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. [B]Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days[/B]

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.[/QUOTE]


Wow....wow.

[QUOTE=Real14]That's why he's tha most underrated. People hated on tha best small man for years:facepalm[/QUOTE]

I do agree that Isiah's reputation has cost him some rightful credit among many. But in the grand scheme I don't think he's underrated. If it wasn't for his beefs with Bird, MJ, and Magic he would have been on the Dream Team. He was a lock for the team by ANY other criteria. His reputation cost him.

It wasn't him being underrated that cost him. He is a POLARIZING kind of legend. U either love him or hate him. Those that hate him BUT DON'T give him credit for his career have an agenda. People have to separate personal bias from what happens on the court. I think Nique is much more UNDERRATED than Isiah ever was! Nique didn't make NBA 50 greatest or the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

Underrated because of comments and remarks he made to the media, that's the only reason.

I think there is a difference between being polarizing and underrated. Some guys can be both. In a sense, Isiah's comments and conduct have cost him some him some props. But if u TAKE AWAY those negative moments, no way in hell is Zeke underrated. Low key superstars not marketed as a face of the L like English, Dantley, Aguirre, McAdoo, Gilmore, etc. are much more underrated than Isiah ever was. Leaving McAdoo off the 50 greatest list is a PRIME EXAMPLE of being underrated!

In terms of a visible high profile superstar who is underrated, Nique is underrated. Nique was highly visible and was VERY INSTRUMENTAL helping grow the game on a worldwide level. He was in all those dunk contests, All Star Games, Reebok commercials, Minute Maid commercials and VHS tapes.

And yet his game was shitted on by elitists in the media as well as some of the older generation of NBA legends. Those are the people responsible for the HOF and 50 greatest list. And they were responsible for Nique getting the shaft.

[QUOTE=bizil]I think there is a difference between being polarizing and underrated. Some guys can be both. In a sense, Isiah's comments and conduct have cost him some him some props. But if u TAKE AWAY those negative moments, no way in hell is Zeke underrated. Low key superstars not marketed as a face of the L like English, Dantley, Aguirre, McAdoo, Gilmore, etc. are much more underrated than Isiah ever was. Leaving McAdoo off the 50 greatest list is a PRIME EXAMPLE of being underrated!

In terms of a visible high profile superstar who is underrated, Nique is underrated. Nique was highly visible and was VERY INSTRUMENTAL helping grow the game on a worldwide level. He was in all those dunk contests, All Star Games, Reebok commercials, Minute Maid commercials and VHS tapes.

And yet his game was shitted on by elitists in the media as well as some of the older generation of NBA legends. Those are the people responsible for the HOF and 50 greatest list. And they were responsible for Nique getting the shaft.[/QUOTE]

How many guys can say they beat Bird, Magic, and Jordan when it mattered as the best player? Its a small list.

We give current players props for stepping up when it matters, why not players of the past?

[QUOTE=ThickassGlasses]How many guys can say they beat Bird, Magic, and Jordan when it mattered as the best player? Its a small list.

We give current players props for stepping up when it matters, why not players of the past?[/QUOTE]

Isiah gets his props for beating Bird, Magic, and MJ. But his skeletons from the past keep him from getting AS MUCH LOVE as he should get. His omission from the Dream Team is a great example. But that ONLY happened because of personal beefs.

Other guys are underrated for being in smaller markets, playing on bad teams, having a shortened prime, being hated on for their style of play, etc.

Typically, the guys who have the most swag or fan friendly style of play get marketed the most. So casual fans will focus on those guys as well as their home team. But the thing is some casual fans THINK TOO HIGHLY of their basketball acumen. They don't know the game like we do on this site.

And the ****ed up thing is MANY OF THEM make it in the media. And once u make it to the media, u are in a position to frame players a certain way. Then when u couple that with some bitter old school NBA players who have a say, guys can QUICKLY become underrated.

[QUOTE=bizil]I do agree that Isiah's reputation has cost him some rightful credit among many. But in the grand scheme I don't think he's underrated. If it wasn't for his beefs with Bird, MJ, and Magic he would have been on the Dream Team. He was a lock for the team by ANY other criteria. His reputation cost him.

It wasn't him being underrated that cost him. He is a POLARIZING kind of legend. U either love him or hate him. Those that hate him BUT DON'T give him credit for his career have an agenda. People have to separate personal bias from what happens on the court. [B] I think Nique is much more UNDERRATED than Isiah ever was! [/B] Nique didn't make NBA 50 greatest or the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.[/QUOTE]
How tha hell he's more underrated than Isiah?:biggums: hE DIDNT MAKE NBA greatest 50 but come on, that dude never led his team past tha semis man. Isiah's resume is better than nique's by a long shot, 2/3 titles too.

It's not really that hard to roughly rank pgs in my opinion. Probably the easiest position to rank, especially in tiers.

So we can put this to rest:

1. Magic
2. Oscar*

3a - stockton
3b - kidd
3c - Isiah Thomas
3d - nash

4a - payton
4b - KJ
4c - CP3 (subject to change, enters next tier with a few deep runs, or a single championship)
4d - Cousy*
4e - Frazier*
4f - T Parker (maybe controversial to some, which I don't understand)

Group 5

Curry (obviously subject to change)
Mark Price
Lenny W
Tim Hardaway
Billups
D. Johnson
Nate Archibald
Anybody I'm forgetting

*played against less athletic competition but still deserves the placement


The letters are in no particular order. These are tiers. Many arguments can be made to rank one player ahead of another within a tier, but I think it's tough to argue that any player should jump a tier. Some would say Payton belongs in group 3, I can see that but I'd take any of the other group 3 PGs first. To me Payton is (slight oversimplification) the mirror image of Nash, and if I have to choose between one of the best defending point guards of all time, or quite possibly the very best offensive point guard of all time, I take the offense, at this position. Otherwise we're all set. My rankings aren't that unique; Isiah Thomas is appropriately ranked in general. He just hasn't helped his cause much with his post nba player career.

[QUOTE=Mrofir]It's not really that hard to roughly rank pgs in my opinion. Probably the easiest position to rank, especially in tiers.

So we can put this to rest:

1. Magic
2. Oscar*

[B]3a - stockton
3b - kidd
[/B]3c - Isiah Thomas
[B]3d - nash[/B]

.[/QUOTE]


This is a big ass slap to tha face. The bigger this thread gets tha more Isiah Thomas gets more underrated:facepalm. Kidd, Stockton and nash was not on Thomas' level period:no:

[QUOTE=Real14]This is a big ass slap to tha face. The bigger this thread gets tha more Isiah Thomas gets more underrated:facepalm. Kidd, Stockton and nash was not on Thomas' level period:no:[/QUOTE]

It's not a slap to the face. I've said on here before that Isiah could "bridge" in at 2.5 -- He might be the most credible choice to be elevated out of group 2, but it's not obvious.

I won't do them all because you gotta do your own research, but at a glance:

Stockton:
-- All time assists leader by 12 light years, [B]9 assist titles[/B]
-- All time steals leader by a mile, 2 steals titles
-- 19 year career, 19 playoff appearances
-- career 52/38.4/83 shooter
-- 10x all star
-- 2x all nba 1st, 6x 2nd team, 3x third team, 5x all defense 2nd team

Isiah Thomas:
--2x champion
--1x finals mvp
-- 12x all star
-- 1 assist title
-- 3x all nba first, 2x all nba 2nd team
-- career 45/29/76 shooter


It's not obvious.