Michael Jordan Stats and Footage vs. DPOY Michael Cooper (8-time All-Defense)

.
[SIZE="4"]All Games of MJ vs. Michael Cooper, [I]both 30+ MPG[/I][/SIZE]


[B][COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]Date[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR]MP[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR]FG%[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]REB[COLOR="White"][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][/COLOR]AST[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR]PTS
[/B]
Michael Jordan... 11/28/86... 45:00:00.......0.44.......10........3.........41
Michael Cooper.. 11/28/86... 32:00:00.......0.50........3.........4.........11

Michael Jordan... 12/20/88.. 39:00:00.......0.48........7.........8.........42
Michael Cooper.. 12/20/88.. 30:00:00.......0.50........4.........4..........9

Michael Jordan.... 3/21/89... 41:00:00.......0.35........8........16........21
Michael Cooper... 3/21/89... 31:00:00.......0.67........4.........8..........9

Michael Jordan... 12/19/89.. 44:00:00.......0.52........7.........5.........37
Michael Cooper.. 12/19/89... 33:00:00.......0.22........4.........3.........5


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]MJ's Averages: 35.1 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 8.0 APG, 45.2% FG[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[I]Source: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=coopemi01[/url][/I]


[SIZE="4"][U]Footage of MJ vs. Cooper[/SIZE]:[/U]

[I][SIZE="3"][url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297486&postcount=42][u]OFF-BALL[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296029&postcount=30][u]ISOLATIONS[/u][/url][/SIZE][/I]



[SIZE="4"]MJ's career averages vs. other DPOY wing defenders[/SIZE] [SIZE="3"](source data is linked)[/SIZE]:

MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01][u]Sidney Moncrief[/u][/url]: 31.6 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404][u]Michael Cooper[/u][/url]: 35.1 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=roberal01][u]Alvin Robertson[/u][/url]: 34.7 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01][u]Gary Payton[/u][/url]: 30.5 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01][u]Dennis Rodman/Joe Dumars[/u][/url]: 31.8 PPG

Of course, previous eras didn't have today's spacing to facilitate enhanced ball movement and dribble penetration, [I]so 1-on-1 was needed more often[/i].. Accordingly, MJ's opponents were more experienced 1-on-1 defenders AND 1-on-1 scorers, such as [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8][u]Clyde Drexler[/u][/url], [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989][u]Reggie Lewis[/u][/url], and [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264][u]Derrick McKey[/u][/url].




Lebron achieves his stats by significantly reducing the APG and PPG of teammates - this is statistical [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709582&postcount=17]fact[/url].

Not only does Lebron reduce teammates' APG, but he increases their assisted rate, proving he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers..

Naturally, his teammates' basic play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs, which explains their consistent underperformance in the Finals - the story is always how Lebron's teammates underperformed against the best teams, leading to TEAM underperformance by losing as the favorite (2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals) or when it's 50/50 [url=http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_or_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch.html](2014 Finals)[/url].

The reason Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers is [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60]threefold[/url].



[B]Bulls ORtg [COLOR="Blue"]with[/COLOR] Jordan 1991-1993[/B]:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] [SIZE="3"][B]#1 all-time[/B][/SIZE] (115)

[B]Bulls ORtg [COLOR="red"]without[/COLOR] Jordan 1994[/B]:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] [B][SIZE="3"]14th in league[/SIZE][/B] (106)


[SIZE="4"]^^^^GOAT IMPACT[/SIZE]


[I]Keep in mind that these kind of ORtg comparisons are normally done with an on-off format, so the player in question is replaced by NOBODY - whereas the Bulls replaced Jordan with Kukoc.

More importantly, unlike the impact of most players, the offensive improvement the Bulls experienced with Jordan [COLOR="Navy"]didn't come at the expense of defense[/COLOR] - they had the 6th ranked defense in 1994, which is the same as 1991-1993 (4th, 7th, 4th).

Jordan enabled a TWO-WAY TEAM, which shouldn't be surprising since Popovich said Jordan was the standard for [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49]two-way play[/url].[/I]




[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]


[B]In another episode Isiah Thomas dissed Pippen by saying some players that won rings were

[SIZE="5"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]just riding in the car but never driving it[/COLOR][/SIZE].

( This was from "The 50 Greatest & Next 10" Episode)[/B]


[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="5"]This was the consensus about Pippen:[/SIZE]



[B]Shaquille O'Neal:[/B]
[INDENT][I]"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7) [/I][/INDENT]



[B]Bill Laimbeer[/B]:

[INDENT]"[I]We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player[/I]."

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:[/B]

[indent][I]“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. [COLOR="Red"]Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.[/color]

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death." [/I]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558[/url][/indent]



[B]Bill Laimbeer[/B]:

[INDENT]"[I]The Jordan Rules were to just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub[/I]"

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Chuck Daly[/B]:

[INDENT][I]"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."[/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Chuck Daly:[/B]

[INDENT]"[I]We knew how dangerous he was and we knew going into the playoffs that we had to do something special.. So we most definitely devised what we called "the Jordan Rules[/I]""

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Phil Jackson[/B]:

[INDENT]"[I]Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not [COLOR="Red"]TIME[/COLOR] yet[/I]."

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s[/url]

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.[/INDENT]



[B]Dumars and Isiah[/B]:

[INDENT]"[I]Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)[/I]".

"[I]Dumars and i were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red[/I]."

"[I]Isiah called me at 3 in the morning and said 'I think i finally figured out a way to stop MJ[/I]"

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s[/url]

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.. The last quote is from assistant coach Brendan Malone, who said that Isiah called at 3 am to talk about stopping MJ.[/INDENT]




[B]Reporter Pat O'Brien in 1989[/B], confirming that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping [U]1 guy[/U] via the "Jordan Rules":

[indent][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s[/url][/indent]




[b]Horace Grant[/b]:

[INDENT][I]"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s[/url][/INDENT][/I]


[B]Scottie Pippen[/B]:

[INDENT]"[I]It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell[/I]."

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s[/url]

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.[/INDENT]


[B][COLOR="Red"]WOAT Support from 2nd Option:[/COLOR][/B]

[I]1988 ECSF[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 9 ppg on 42%
[I]1989 ECF[/I]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 10 ppg on 40%
[I]1996 Finals[/i]: 15 ppg on 34%
[i]1998 Finals[/i]: 15 ppg on 41%

Then he had the epic choke in Game 7 of [COLOR="Red"][I]1990 ECF[/I][/COLOR], which cost the Bulls their first championship - they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 6, but needed 7 and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.

Losing record. Empty stats.

Empty stats.

1-9

194-198

I don't cherry pick, let alone cherry-picking 4 games.

I might compare the larger load that old MJ carried during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs to [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396923]Shaq's 2000-2002[/url], or [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12095171#post12095171]Lebron's 2012 & 2013[/url] runs.

Or I might compare overall stats for [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055910&postcount=35]prime vs. prime[/url] - Jordan's 6-year prime (1988-1993) to Lebron's 6-year prime (2009-2014).

Or their stats [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055983&postcount=42]thru 30 years old[/url], or their [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056271&postcount=57]entire careers[/url].

Or the higher proportion of team points that old MJ scored in 1997 and 1998 than every year of Lebron's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056041&postcount=48]entire career[/url].

I don't cherry-pick.. But that won't stop you from lying about me though and talking out of your ass, because that's your thing.



.
[size="4"]Over 80% of today's 3-point attempts are "[I]open[/I]" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "[I]very open[/I]" (6+ feet) - as described by NBA.com:[/SIZE]



[COLOR="White"]........................................[/COLOR][B][U]0-2 ft [SIZE="1"](very tight)[/SIZE][/U][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [U]2-4 ft [SIZE="1"](tight)[/SIZE][/U][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] [U]4-6 ft [SIZE="1"](open)[/SIZE][/U][COLOR="White"].... [/COLOR][U]6+ ft [SIZE="1"](very open)[/SIZE][/U][/B]

[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight]0.4[/url][COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR] [url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight]4.1[/url][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open]9.9[/url][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open]9.4[/url] [I][SIZE="1"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]<-- nba.com[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][/B]

[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight]1.7%[/url][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR] [url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight]17.2%[/url][COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open]41.6%[/url][COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open]39.5%[/url] [/B]




[SIZE="4"]Over [COLOR="blue"]70%[/COLOR] of Curry's 3-point attempts are either "open" (4-6 ft) or "very open" (6+ ft).. However, the league average is [COLOR="red"]80%[/COLOR], as shown above.[/SIZE]



[COLOR="White"]........................................[/COLOR][B][U]0-2 ft [SIZE="1"](very tight)[/SIZE][/U][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [U]2-4 ft [SIZE="1"](tight)[/SIZE][/U][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] [U]4-6 ft [SIZE="1"](open)[/SIZE][/U][COLOR="White"].... [/COLOR][U]6+ ft [SIZE="1"](very open)[/SIZE][/U][/B]

[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]STEPH CURRY'S.
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]0.4[/url][COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR] [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]2.9[/url][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]5.1[/url][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]2.7[/url] [I][SIZE="1"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]<-- nba.com[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][/B]

[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]0.4%[/url][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR] [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]26.1%[/url][COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]45.9%[/url][COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/]24.3%[/url] [/B]




[I][COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="5"]Why is it important that most of today's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room?

Because a shortened 3-point line reduces the distance that defenders must closeout by 3-4 feet.. With a shortened 3-point line, most of the Warrior's 3-pointers wouldn't be wide open like they are today.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/I]

[I]Btw, it makes sense that most of today's 3-pointers are wide open - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.

Keep in mind that driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Consequently, good 3-point shooters in the 80's and 90's didn't benefit from offenses that were based on their strength like today's 3-point shooters do.. Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for most of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to just stand there and wait for kickouts like today's player.

Btw, 3-pointers have ALWAYS needed to be more open, much more than 2-pointers - certainly, most 2-pointers aren't taken with 4+ feet of room like today's 3-pointers.. Since 3-pointers must be more open, today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG.

Otoh, previous eras barely shot 3-pointers - instead, they settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.

In addition to creating faster pace, the lack of 3-point shooting in previous eras allowed post-ups to be the primary offensive option.. But now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.[/I]
.



Btw, in addition to preventing efficient high volume, Lebron's poor midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, since mid-range was the primary option remaining without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick mathematically preferable.

Ultimately, Lebron's career percentage from 4-23 feet (midrange) is 40%, which means he couldn't be a top scorer in the 80's.. Virtually all 25+ ppg scorers in the 80's and 90's had feathery touch and were elite midrange shooters... Lebron's mechanical, stone hands don't fit into this type of group:





[I]There's only minor differences between today's defense and previous eras:[/I]


[B]1)[/B] Today's defenses can double-team a player who doesn't have the ball, like on the post..

[INDENT]But in previous eras, the lack of spacing meant other players were standing just a couple feet away, so doubling ahead of time wasn't necessary.. When there isn't spacing and help defense is much closer, a team is better off NOT compromising their defense by doubling early and leaving someone wide open.. The lack of spacing and resulting closer proximity of help defense made previous eras better-equipped to handle a post player (or any player) that had the ball.[/INDENT]


[B]2)[/B] Today's defenses can "flood"..

[INDENT]But the flooding tactic merely attempts to make the concentration of strongside defenders equivalent to the un-spaced courts of previous eras.. Also, here's a concise, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11647538&postcount=15]4-sentence[/url] comparison of today's flooding to previous era paint-camping.[/INDENT]


[I]Otoh, there are things today's defenses can no longer do - they can't get away with double teaming as easily due to spacing, and defenders can't [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11710410&postcount=19]sag off 3-point shooters[/url] as much or [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606624&postcount=406]paint-camp[/url].
[/I]




Today's defenses are forced to make more rotations because they must cover extra ground created by spacing, while also abiding by defensive 3 seconds.

But the difficulty of scoring itself hasn't changed - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

Thus dude is reaching new levels of delusion.

[/QUOTE]
[i][COLOR="red"]MJ always defended the other team's best player ANYTIME THEY WERE A GUARD, including:[/COLOR]
[/i]
Magic, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw]Gary Payton[/url], Reggie Miller, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc]Isiah Thomas[/url], Clyde Drexler, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0]John Stockton[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw]Kevin Johnson[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s]Tim Hardaway[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8]Rod Strickland[/url], etc., etc.

Otoh, Pippen guarded Mark Jackson once, the slowest PG of all-time and you give him props as the goat perimeter defender because of that (and your MJ fatigue/bias).. [I][COLOR="Navy"]But show me another time he was the primary defender on a PG? [/COLOR][/I]

In 1991 Finals, MJ was the primary defender on Magic - he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%) to Pippen's 6 quarters (30%).. And it was well-known, even by the mainstream media that MJ was the team's best defender:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s[/url]






[B][COLOR="Blue"]Top 5 indictments on Lebron's game and reasons he isn't Top 15 all-time[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="Blue"][I][SIZE="3"]1)[/SIZE] Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume[/I][/COLOR]

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.


[color="blue"][SIZE="3"]2)[/SIZE] Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 ability means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's[/color]

Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers needed to make today's customary screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile(driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile by comparison).. Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick preferable and the force it is today, Lebron would have to score via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.


[color="blue"][SIZE="3"]3)[/SIZE] Lebron's low-assisted play reduces teammates' assist opportunities and doesn't positively impact his team's assist frequency[/color]

Starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a [I]2nd[/I] low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't improve the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446]assist frequency[/url] of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of the Bulls' teams, as the data linked above shows.


[color="blue"][SIZE="3"]4)[/SIZE] Lebron's presence as an extra point guard reduces the APG of the remaining teammates and prevents more optimal, equal-opportunity offenses[/color]

The APG and assist % of teammates [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841]crater alongside Lebron[/url], while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s]90's Bulls used[/url], where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a [I]better[/I] brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).


[color="blue"][SIZE="3"]5)[/SIZE] Lebron achieves his stats at the expense of teammates and by employing a stat-friendly, losing style[/color]

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.. Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.




.
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][I]Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]........................[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]40.8[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]51.2[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]53.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]48.2[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]38.8[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]52.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]41.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]52.4[/url]

[I][B]LEBRON 2012[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]31.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]39.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]34.1[/url]
[I][B]LEBRON 2013[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]45.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]51.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]46.5[/url]



[COLOR="Red"][I][SIZE="3"]Not even close - old man Jordan destroying prime Lebron[/SIZE][/I][/COLOR]




At this stage of their careers, Klay is probably better relative to the competition he faces - in Klay's 4th season (last year), he was a top 12 player in his conference (all-star), whereas 4th year Pippen was not.

Also, Klay might have the edge thus far due to superior scoring, and his tougher mentality resulted in greater success for his team - in Klay's 3rd playoff run (last year) - he helped his team win a championship.

Otoh, in Pippen's 3rd playoff run, he had one of the biggest chokes in the history of the game: 2 points on 1-10 in Game 7 of ECF.. This cost the Bulls their first championship, since the Pistons needed 7 games (and Pip's choke) to beat the Bulls, but only 6 games to beat Blazers.


[COLOR="Blue"][I]Klay 2015 Finals[/I]: 15.8 ppg.. 40.9 fg.. 50.9 ts[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"][I]Pip 1996 Finals[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 15.7 ppg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts
[I]Pip 1998 Finals[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 15.7 ppg.. 41.0 fg.. 50.2 ts[/COLOR]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/UAWFREj.gif[/IMG]



[I][color="blue"]Show me where a #1 option scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency and WASN'T considered the far better player - it's never happened - it's only possible in the minds of delusional Lebron fans [/COLOR][/i]


Even though MJ averaged 44 ppg on 51% against the 1986 Celtics' #1 defense, I don't see your point - it's dumb to think a player's playoff stats against the top defensive team should be the same as their regular season stats against the entire league.

But again, Jordan's stats were SO great to begin with, that he still averaged 30/7/6 on 50% against the Pistons all-time defense in the 1988-1991 playoffs.. This included battling [I]All-NBA defenders[/I] Rodman and Dumars all game long... And of course, the Jordan Rules.

Also, Wilt's regular season average was 30 ppg, which cratered to 22 ppg in the playoffs, so you have no point... Your guy dropped off in the playoffs more than anyone - MJ was a FAR better playoff scorer - it's not even close... Jordan is clearly better... 6/6 with FAR superior playoff scoring.. There's no counter to these facts.. Wilt averaged a pathetic 22 ppg in the playoffs.

I remember seeing a really good video highlighting Cooper's defense on MJ. Here it is:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggAXSv53Qc[/url]

Great thread. Very illuminating.

Will read again.

A case where stats don't tell the whole story.

[QUOTE=3ball]Empty Stats[/QUOTE]
Agreed

.
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man:[/COLOR][/size]


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR][U]2000-2014[/U][COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR][U]1984-1998[/U]

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


[I]Honorable Mention 1984-1998:[/I] Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson, Jeff Hornacek, Jeff Malone

[I]Honorable Mention 2000-2014:[/I] Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis





[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif[/IMG]


Seattle: 47
Indiana: 28
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Indiana: 28
Lakers: 57
Phoenix: 55
Portland: 39
Seattle: 47
Warriors: 43
Bucks: 49
Cleveland: 57
New Jersey: 26
Charlotte: 20
Detroit: 63
Detroit: 63
Atlanta: 52
Indiana: 28
New Jersey: 26
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Washington: 40
Washington: 40
Cleveland: 57
______________
45.1 wins


[QUOTE=plowking]


[B][SIZE="3"]He was never used as a primary defender[/SIZE][/B]


[/quote]
This is that new fan, poppycock narrative invented to prop up today's players against MJ.. Jordan WAS the Bulls' primary defender - this was never more evident than the 1991 Finals, when he guarded the regular season runner-up for MVP and consensus top-10 all-time player, Magic Johnson, for 14 of the 20 quarters (70%) to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5.. Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA[/url]
Game 2: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY[/url]
Game 3: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4[/url]
Game 4: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU[/url]
Game 5: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc[/url]


It was MJ's job to guard the opponent's starting PG or SG, depending on who was better.. He has locked down PG's like [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=14]Tim Hardaway[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q53GLDrhMkY]Isiah Thomas[/url], John Stockton, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=13]Kevin Johnson[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg]Gary Payton[/url], Rod Strickland - basically every PG in the league.. Otoh, Pippen only guarded SF's.. He never guarded any other position other than rare one-off's (like when he guarded the slowest PG of all time, Mark Jackson, lol).



[B][COLOR="Red"]Jordan's jumpshot was better than Curry's from inside 20 feet:[/COLOR][/B]



[B][COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]MJ 1997[/url][COLOR="White"]...................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Curry 2015[/Url][/B][COLOR="White"]............ [/COLOR][b][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/]Curry 2016[/url][/B]

[B]5-9 ft[/B].......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 53.1%, 32 fga

[B]10-14 ft[/B]....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 52.2%, 23 fga

[B]15-19 ft[/B]....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 41.7%, 48 fga



[b]Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)[/b]

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2016: 45.1%, 82 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 31.9%, 119 fga

[I][COLOR="navy"]Anyone who disagrees that MJ is a better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet must explain why Curry shoots far worse percentage inside 20 feet.. [/COLOR][/I]




.
[B]Lebron is an excellent player, an all-time great even.. But he's far inferior to the GOAT.. Heck, even though MJ scored 5-10 ppg more than Lebron in the playoffs, he did so on equal or better efficiency while managing to average more assists in his prime and thru the same age than Lebron:[/B]


[SIZE="2"][U]6-Year Prime - Per Game Playoffs:[/U][/SIZE]

[size="1"][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game][I]JORDAN 1988-1993[/I][/url]: 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. [I][COLOR="darkred"]6.6 apg[/color][/i].. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game][I]LEBRON 2009-2014[/I][/url]: 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. [I][COLOR="darkred"]6.1 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg



[SIZE="2"][U]6-Year Prime - Per 100 Possessions Playoffs:[/U][/SIZE]

[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss][I]JORDAN 1988-1993[/I][/url]: 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. [I][COLOR="darkred"]8.5 ast[/COLOR][/I].. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss][I]LEBRON 2009-2014[/I][/url]: 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. [I][COLOR="darkred"]8.1 ast[/COLOR][/I].. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg[/size]



[SIZE="2"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[SIZE="1"][B]Jordan[/B]: 34.7 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ORtg
[B]Lebron[/B]: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg..[/SIZE]


[SIZE="2"][U]Finals Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[SIZE="1"][B]Jordan[/B]: 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.76 bpg.. 52.6 fg
[B]Lebron[/B]: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg[/SIZE]



[B]For their playoff and Finals careers, MJ averages 5-7 ppg more than Lebron with superior FG%, TS, and ORtg (that's all the efficiency measures).. Lebron has a tiny assist edge (no edge if you consider turnovers), but his edge will vanish as he gets older and reaches MJ's retirement age:[/B]


[SIZE="2"][U]Career Playoffs:[/U][/SIZE]

[SIZE="1"][B]Jordan[/B]: 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
[B]Lebron[/B]: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg.. [/SIZE]


[SIZE="2"][U]Career Finals:[/U][/SIZE]

[SIZE="1"][B]Jordan[/B]: 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.65 bpg.. 48.1 fg
[B]Lebron[/B]: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg[/SIZE]



[B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]There's never been a #1 option that scored 5-10 ppg more on better efficiency and wasn't considered the FAR better player - this is especially true considering old Jordan scored a far higher proportion of his team's points than prime Lebron, especially in the 4th:[/COLOR][/I][/B]



[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/SIZE][/COLOR]


[size="1"][COLOR="White"]........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I]JORDAN 1997[/I].... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4][I][B]46.3[/B][/I][/url]...... 40.9...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4][I][B]50.4[/B][/I][/url]
[I]JORDAN 1998[/I].... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4][I][B]48.8[/B][/I][/url]...... 43.6...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4][I][B]49.1[/B][/I][/url]



[I]LEBRON 2009[/I].... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
[I]LEBRON 2010[/I].... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
[I]LEBRON 2011[/I].... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4][B][I]14.8[/I][/B][/url]
[I]LEBRON 2012[/I].... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
[I]LEBRON 2013[/I].... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
[I]LEBRON 2014[/I].... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
[I]LEBRON 2015[/I].... 30.1..... 38.9..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs]35.0[/url]..... 42.4...... 40.0...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]44.5[/url]
[I]LEBRON 2016[/I].... 33.4..... 40.9[/SIZE]



[B]Imagine if we had stats from MJ's prime... :coleman: [/B]
.

Jordan has a losing record against Dennis Rodman as well.

Empty.

Coop played pretty well against MJ, despite the numbers. I wish I had seen Coop matched up against the 90-93 MJ that picked his spots a little better and would have kept him guessing more. The MJ Coop faced went HAM every time down the court.

MJ 0-6 vs Bird

.
[SIZE="4"]League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season[/SIZE]:


[I][B]1996[/B][/I]: 107.6
[I][B]1997[/B][/I]: 106.7
[I][B]1998[/B][/I]: 105.0

[I][B]2008[/B][/I]: 107.5
[I][B]2009[/B][/I]: 108.3
[I][B]2010[/B][/I]: 107.6

Source: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html[/url]


[SIZE="4"]League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs[/SIZE] (each year is link to source):

[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats][u][B]1996[/B][/u][/url]: 107.4
[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats][u][B]1997[/B][/u][/url]: 106.8
[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats][u][B]1998[/B][/u][/url]: 105.6

[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats][u][B]2008[/B][/u][/url]: 107.4
[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats][u][B]2009[/B][/u][/url]: 107.7
[url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats][u][B]2010[/B][/u][/url]: 108.6



[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats during his 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe did in his championship years without Shaq (2008-2010): [/SIZE][/COLOR]


[i]REGULAR SEASON[/i]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN 1996-1998[/COLOR][/I]: 29.6 ppg... 48.2% fg... 2 MVP
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE B 2008-2010[/COLOR][/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 27.4 ppg... 46.1% fg... 1 MVP


[i]PLAYOFFS:[/i]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN 1996-1998[/COLOR][/I]: 31.4 ppg... 45.9% fg
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE B 2008-2010[/COLOR][/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 29.8 ppg... 46.4% fg


[i]FINALS[/i]

[COLOR="Navy"][I]JORDAN 1996-1998[/I][/COLOR]: 31.1 ppg... 43.4% fg... 3/3.. 3 FMVP
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE B 2008-2010[/COLOR][/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 29.2 ppg... 41.3% fg... 2/3.. 2 FMVP

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


[I]At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..[/I]

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats??.. Better not.. :facepalm .. It's amazing how much better MJ was than Kobe.. :bowdown:




[IMG]http://lookingforamerica.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Nba-Basketball-Court-Dimensions-300x300.jpg[/IMG]


In today's game, if a defender's man is behind the 3-point line (with or without the ball), the defender can sag off an [I][COLOR="Navy"]unlimited amount[/COLOR][/I], even all the way to the baseline, BUT ONLY IF the paint doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - in these instances, the defender only has 3 seconds in the paint, which is the same as previous eras, who were also allowed to sag into the paint for 3 seconds.

However, defenders in previous eras had an advantage specifically when sagging off [I][COLOR="Navy"]corner/sideline[/COLOR][/I] 3-point shooters - they were allowed to paint-camp "[I]with no time limits[/I]" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.
.



[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/LmyGlA.gif[/IMG]


In the 80's, teams averaged more PPG because they didn't have to slow the game down to run offense so they can get good 3-point looks...

2-pointers don't have to be as open - a higher level of contest has always been acceptable on 2-pointers.. Teams didn't have to run as much offense to get these lower-quality looks - they just ran up and down and took one contested 2-pointer after another - go watch old footage and you'll see this.

Also, shots IN TRANSITION were highly-contested because defenders ran to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line (see gif above) - again, teams ran up and down the court taking one contested 2-pointer after another, whereas today's game is slower since it's designed to get good 3-point looks (boring af).




[QUOTE=livinglegend]

No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.

[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..

But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR]




[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/SIZE][/COLOR]


.
[COLOR="White"]........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I]JORDAN 1997[/I].... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4][I][B]46.3[/B][/I][/url]...... 40.9...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4][I][B]50.4[/B][/I][/url]
[I]JORDAN 1998[/I].... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4][I][B]48.8[/B][/I][/url]...... 43.6...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4][I][B]49.1[/B][/I][/url]


[I]PIPPEN 1997[/I]..... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6....... 25.1...... 26.4
[I]PIPPEN 1998[/I]..... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4][B][I]15.8[/I][/B][/url]....... 22.1...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4][I][B]14.7[/B][/I][/url]


[I]LEBRON 2009[/I].... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
[I]LEBRON 2010[/I].... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
[I]LEBRON 2011[/I].... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4][B][I]14.8[/I][/B][/url]
[I]LEBRON 2012[/I].... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
[I]LEBRON 2013[/I].... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
[I]LEBRON 2014[/I].... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
[I]LEBRON 2015[/I].... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
[I]LEBRON 2016[/I].... 33.4..... 40.9

[I]CURRY 2015[/I]..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
[I]CURRY 2016[/I]..... 35.1..... 40.7



Pippen was super-weak as a rookie - he needed tons of help and development on both sides of the ball.. Certainly, if Pippen's 7 ppg rookie capability landed on the 1988 Lakers, he would never have seen the light of day - a veteran, winning team doesn't have time for a scrawny, undeveloped rookie.

Fortunately, Pippen landed with a bad team where he could get a little playing time.. And more importantly, he landed in the perfect place that would maximize his development on offense and defense - he watched MJ garner DPOY, while having full access to MJ's goat offensive tutelage.

This is why Pippen's all-time rank is overstated - the fact that he was an undeveloped rookie means he needed to land in the RIGHT place to maximize his development.. Otoh, guys like Gasol and Worthy were already good and would reach their potential on any team - so if we're considering what would happen if each guy was drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy and Gasol would far MUCH better overall, while it would be a crap-shoot with Pippen to see if he landed in the right place.

As it turns out, he's the luckiest guy in the world, according to Jerry Krause:

[indent][I]“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. [COLOR="navy"]Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.[/color]

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death." [/I]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558[/url][/indent]

Not 1 word itt about defensive 3 seconds, which banned zone inside the paint.. Instead, today's defenders must stay within "[I]armslength[/I]" of an offensive player (about 3 feet) - [B]that's the exact opposite of a zone[/B].. Infact, "[I]armslength[/I]" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Yet this strict policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Of course, the defensive 3 seconds rule also banned paint-camping... Paint-camping is a superior defensive tactic to today's shading/flooding.. Furthermore, due to defensive 3 seconds, defenders must shade/flood to OUTSIDE the paint, leaving the paint unprotected and allowing quick wings to beat defenders to the open paint (as opposed to defenders already being in the paint waiting on penetrators, like previous eras).

Finally, today's 3-point shooting and the resulting spacing negates the current defensive schemes.. It's all nice and good that defenders are flooding, but the spacing makes them help from further away - spacing makes defenders help from further away - that's the definition of spacing... The further distance of today's help defenders isn't disputable - it's physics... Spacing affords today's players more time and room to operate than ever before.





You have to admit - it's remarkable how Lebron craters the APG and sometimes PPG of his teammates..

Anyway, redirecting - here's the real issue about this thread - [SIZE="7"]Lebron can't shoot[/SIZE] from midrange, which he would HAVE to do in the 80's/90's to be a 28-30 ppg scorer.

With less than half the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane, 1993 Lebron would be forced to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like all aggressive scorers back then.. The lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation, all areas he's average to bad in.



[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Incorrect

2013 Lebron shot .447 from 16+ ft and .406 from 3[/QUOTE]
For Lebron's career, he's 38.8% from the 16-23 foot range, which is below average, and he's 35.8% from 10-16 feet, which is far below-average.

In 2013, he actually began a 2-year campaign to inflate his efficiency by only attempting 17 shots per game.. This backfired in the 2014 Finals, when his passivity was run out of the gym.

Btw, 44.7% isn't impressive.. Magic shot 56% from midrange in the 1985 Finals vs. Boston - ask ShaqisGoat or PHILA - one of them has the data.. We know MJ shot 52% from midrange in 1997, per nba.com's stats..

[I]Here's the factual reality - for Lebron to be an elite scorer like 27+ppg in the 80's or 1993, he'd need [B]ELITE[/B] midrange or post game, like ALL the leading scorers back then:[/I]


[U]Leading Scorers in 1986:[/U]

SF Dominique 30.3
SF Dantley 29.8
SF English 29.8
SF Bird 25.8
SF Short 25.5
SF [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg]Vandeweghe[/url] 24.8


[U]Leading Scorers in 1987:[/U]

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


[U]Leading Scorers 1993:[/U]

SG Michael Jordan 32.6
SF Dominique 29.9
PF Karl Malone 27.0
C. Hakeem Olajuwon 26.1
SG Chris Mullin 25.9
PF Charles Barkley 25.6
C. Patrick Ewing 24.2
SG Joe Dumars 23.5
C. Shaquille O'Neal 23.4
C. David Robinson 23.4
PF Danny Manning 22.8
SG Drazen Petrovic 22.3
[B]PF Larry Johnson 22.1[/B]


Larry Johnson is the first guy listed here that didn't have an elite mid-range and/or post game.. :confusedshrug:


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION][B]

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint

Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book

[/quote]
In 2005, a new defensive 3 seconds rule was introduced, which banned paint-camping and zone inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "[I]armslength[/I]" (about 3 feet), which is the exact opposite of a zone.

"[I]Armslength[/I]" is actually the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. yet this ridiculously strict policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: [I]the paint[/I].


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses

[/QUOTE]
Remember - the defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping... Paint-camping is a superior defensive tactic to today's flooding.. Furthermore, due to defensive 3 seconds, defenders must shade/flood to OUTSIDE the paint, leaving the paint unprotected and allowing quick wings to beat defenders to the open paint (as opposed to defenders already being in the paint waiting on penetrators, like previous eras).

Finally, today's 3-point shooting and the resulting spacing negates the current defensive schemes.. It's all nice and good that defenders are flooding, but the spacing makes them help from further away - spacing makes defenders help from further away - that's the definition of spacing... The further distance of today's help defenders isn't disputable - it's physics... Spacing affords today's players more time and room to operate than ever before.


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

Elite scorer numbers are down across the board

[/QUOTE]
This is factually incorrect - there were only two 30-point scorers in the 90's - MJ six times and Malone once... In the 2000's there have been many 30 point scorers.. Today's much higher number of 30-point scorers is due to increaseed 3-point shooting which has spread the floor, hand-check ban, and defensive 3 seconds.

Remember, Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.. Nor could they double-pump with ease from the [url=http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif]FT line[/url] like MJ.. And let's compare the defenses they faced:

[COLOR="Indigo"][I]PREVIOUS ERA[/I]: paint-camping... no-spacing... hand-checking[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]TODAY'S ERA[/I]:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] shading..[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] spacing.. [COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]no hand-checking[/COLOR]


I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s]every-possession double-teams[/url]... Only the goat has it [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210]like that[/url].

.

[QUOTE=3ball]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
MJ only swept twice in his career
both against Bird's Celtics :bowdown: :bowdown:
Bird the GOAT

Empty stats

[QUOTE=3ball][IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/740c4aeb63705ef81d066269d25f3e54.gif[/IMG]


Just think how much more he'd dominate WITH spacing.. :bowdown:

Even though MJ would dominate much more in today's game with shooters perpetually spreading the court and opening up the middle of the floor for him, [I][B]he'd actually be a worse basketball player today[/B][/I] - he'd use inferior moves than what he needed in the no-spacing environments of previous eras and his repertoire would be much weaker.

In today's game, he'd use the spacing to get a much higher proportion of clean looks - his efficiency would be sick, while still undertaking his typical league-leading volume.. [I]But again, he'd be using less sophisticated moves and actually be a WORSE basketball player[/I].. So while high-level moves [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38][u]like this[/u][/url] and passes that thread needles [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44][u]like this[/u][/url] were necessary to mitigate defenders in no-spacing environments, they'd be unnecessary in today's game.

For one thing, MJ wouldn't posterize paint-camping 7-footers at the rim like he used to, since paint-camping has been banned.. Instead, those 7-footers are now shading on the perimeter - so instead of finishing on them at the rim like previous eras, MJ would blow by them on the perimeter [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490][u]in today's game[/u][/url], which is [I]expected[/I] of a perimeter ballhandler and not nearly as impressive.[/QUOTE]
Lost more games than he won... therefore the stats are empty.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/2T4am1.gif[/IMG]


As the gif shows, today's 3-point shooting/spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some sort than a basketball drive.

However, 1993 had less than half the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation - all areas he's average to bad in..



We saw Boris Diaw forced Lebron into midrange and forearm push-offs - this kind of mechanical, stone-hands touch wasn't good enough to be a 27+ ppg scorer in the 80's or 90's:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/NtLU8z.gif[/IMG]


That's ugly.. His touch is a 1 out of 10 compared to say, Bob McAdoo.



It's interesting, because the lack of spacing and packed paints often forced MJ to shoot jumpshots, which he did at a truly elite level.. Even the great Jerry West thought MJ was the best jumpshooter in the game (2nd paragraph):

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1996-05-12/magazine/tm-3107_1_michael-jordan/4[/url]


[I]So people don't realize the skill difference - MJ was the best athlete in the game, but he was also the best jumpshooter in the game who routinely had massive games shooting all jumpshots - here's just a few examples:[/I]

54 in 1992 ECF vs. Knicks #1 defense - [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A&t=0m53s][u]literally all jumpshots in the biggest game of year[/u][/url]
64 vs. Shaq's 1993 Magic on almost all jumpshots - [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzsmqlJhT58&t=0m33s][u]easiest-looking 60 point game in history[/u][/url].
46 pts in Game 3 of 1992 Finals vs. POR #3 ranked defense - [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIZ3d0pnY1U&t=1m40s][u]almost all jumpshots[/u][/url].


Imagine if Lebron was the best jumpshooter in the game, so he had the skill to have huge games (like, 40, 50, 60 points) just shooting jumpers if needed or if he felt like it.



1-9 with no all-stars.

Otoh, Zydrunas Illgauskas was named an all-star in 2003 and 2005.. So Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 despite having an All-Star on his team.. And when he won his first playoff game in 2006, he did so with the help of a 2-time All-Star.

Otoh, MJ never played with an all-star, or anything NEAR that during his early playoff career... But once he got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6.. Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami.




.
[COLOR="Red"]When Lebron caught it on the elbow, all he saw was [B]open space[/B][/COLOR] because shooters on weakside drew defenders away from strongside - yet he only averaged 36 ppg on 39%:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/IMG]



[COLOR="Red"]Otoh, when MJ caught the ball on the elbow, all he saw was [B]bodies[/B][/COLOR] - no one was spacing the weakside so all 10 players were bunched up on strongside or in the paint, yet he still averaged 36 ppg on 53% in 1991-1993 Finals:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/1Y-xzB.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/yu7DqT.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/4zBlRb.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-08-2015/YLL71A.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2015/Gqsz_a.gif[/IMG]


Lebron has shooters spacing the weakside to take defenders away from the strongside, whereas MJ didn't get weakside spacing, so all 10 players were bunched up on the strongside.
.