Deconstructing a myth: Vince Carter having

[url]https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/11/05/deconstructing-a-myth-vince-carter-having-michael-jordan-potential/[/url]

What I have never understood is the narrative that Vince Carter could have been Michael Jordan and just didn’t care enough to . This is false for a number of reasons.

The first thing that should be noted is that as athletic as Vince Carter was, Michael Jordan he was not. Young Carter had Jordan’s vertical talent, but Jordan’s first step and explosiveness was at another level than his, or anyone else’s size in NBA history. Explosiveness on the ground is more important than explosiveness vertically – If you can break through into the paint, this forces the defense inward and opens a myriad of possibilities for your team offensively. Vertical explosiveness simply helps you finish at the rim more, which is valuable but not as much as penetrations. Furthermore, most high end athletes who are less vertically talented than Carter, are strong enough finishers in their own right. Thus the marginal benefit of Carter’s all time vertical ability from that point is comparatively small. But the marginal benefit between a high end penetrator and one of the best penetrators of all time is much higher. It’s why Dwyane Wade is a better offensive player than Vince Carter has ever been, despite lacking Vince’s vertical lift and strength. Wade slicing up the defense like this takes him to another level breaking opposing defensive sets.

OP has TMZ potential

Vince came at a time when the league was in a post MJ transition( before he joined the Wizards). And the two players circa 2000 who most resembled MJ aesthetically in terms of size, physical attributes and in terms of flair were Kobe and Vince. As you said, Vince had the vertical but he didn't have the kind of lateral quickness that would enable him to be a great man defender like MJ or Kobe, nor did he have the maniacal will and competitive desire that drove those guys. We tend to measure athleticism in terms of leaping ability, but MJ had catlike reactionary instincts and ability to switch gears which is what made him such a great slasher, plus MJ had great explosion off one or two feet. Young Wade didn't get the same kind of air as Vince but had similar to MJ reactionary quickness and change of pace for knifing through the defense, probably even a little quicker.

Whats most impressive to me is that he's still in the league at 38, light years past his prime, years ago he seemed like he would be nothing but a high wire act whose time would come screeching to a halt once he got into his 30s. To his credit he adapted to role player status gracefully and thats why he's still in the league.

Alot of nikkas was branded as the next MJ, Jordan like talent. He did have MJs athleticism tho arguably greater

TMac and Bran are really the only wings since MJ that had the natural pure talent. Kobe was the closest due to his technique, skills, fundamentals, work ethic and IQ

Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime, but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime, but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.[/QUOTE]
no.

just no.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime[/QUOTE]

Back in 2000, we were all swept up by Vinsanity. I dont see how anyone in retrospect can say with a straight face that Vince in his prime was arguably better, considering his prime basically coincided with Kobe's. That argument should have completely died at the very latest by 2001, even though Vince had a great year that season.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime, but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.[/QUOTE]

lol

Prime Carter has absolutely no argument over prime Bryant.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31][B]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime,[/B] but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/cosby_face.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=JohnMax][url]https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/11/05/deconstructing-a-myth-vince-carter-having-michael-jordan-potential/[/url]

What I have never understood is the narrative that Vince Carter could have been Michael Jordan and just didn’t care enough to . This is false for a number of reasons.

The first thing that should be noted is that as athletic as Vince Carter was, Michael Jordan he was not. Young Carter had Jordan’s vertical talent, but Jordan’s first step and explosiveness was at another level than his, or anyone else’s size in NBA history. Explosiveness on the ground is more important than explosiveness vertically – If you can break through into the paint, this forces the defense inward and opens a myriad of possibilities for your team offensively. Vertical explosiveness simply helps you finish at the rim more, which is valuable but not as much as penetrations. Furthermore, most high end athletes who are less vertically talented than Carter, are strong enough finishers in their own right. Thus the marginal benefit of Carter’s all time vertical ability from that point is comparatively small. But the marginal benefit between a high end penetrator and one of the best penetrators of all time is much higher. It’s why Dwyane Wade is a better offensive player than Vince Carter has ever been, despite lacking Vince’s vertical lift and strength. Wade slicing up the defense like this takes him to another level breaking opposing defensive sets.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

MJ's quickness and first step was off the charts and that is one of the main reasons that made him so unguardable. No single defender had a chance out in the perimeter against MJ. He was just way too quick and explosive.

And also true with Wade. Wade didn't have Vince's vertical but he also had an amazing first step and had great quickness. He also had a far superior ability to get to the rack with a variety of moves (hesitations, change of pace, Euro step, etc).

Vince was an athletic freak when it came to verticality, but he lacked the quickness and explosive first step of MJ or Wade. He also didn't have their iso games. I mean he was very good but not on MJ or Wade level.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Vince came at a time when the league was in a post MJ transition( before he joined the Wizards). And the two players circa 2000 who most resembled MJ aesthetically in terms of size, physical attributes and in terms of flair were Kobe and Vince. As you said, Vince had the vertical but he didn't have the kind of lateral quickness that would enable him to be a great man defender like MJ or Kobe, nor did he have the maniacal will and competitive desire that drove those guys. We tend to measure athleticism in terms of leaping ability, but MJ had catlike reactionary instincts and ability to switch gears which is what made him such a great slasher, plus MJ had great explosion off one or two feet. Young Wade didn't get the same kind of air as Vince but had similar to MJ reactionary quickness and change of pace for knifing through the defense, probably even a little quicker.

Whats most impressive to me is that he's still in the league at 38, light years past his prime, years ago he seemed like he would be nothing but a high wire act whose time would come screeching to a halt once he got into his 30s. To his credit he adapted to role player status gracefully and thats why he's still in the league.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Carter could jump higher than MJ
and he had a more explosive first step..hence he was branded as just a dunker in his first year in the league.

Carter had no handles he just first step blew by defenders and dunked it. Kobe could not do that on a consistent basis cause he wasn't Carter level athletic.

No handles and scoring 20 PPG. First step explosive blow by.

Look Kobe came into the league 1997 and Carter game 1999..he was more hyped than kobe in 1999 and in 2000 and 2001 EVEN though he played for a CANADIAN team no one in the USA cared about. Why is that? More athletic, more entertaining and MORE EXPLOSIVE than kobe. And he was on another level athletically than even JORDAN. Thats why there was HYPE. Kobe wasn't really athletic enough to carry the MJ torch and people weren't interested...Carter enters the scene and BAM

OP ignoring the fact Carter was a far better perimeter shooter than Jordan with a high, unblockable release. For his career he shot 37.4% from 3 on 4 attempts per game.

If he had Jordan's desire he absolutely could have been a GOAT candidate.

For what its worth I still rank Vince ahead of Kobe all-time :confusedshrug:

VC and Tmac were athletic freaks, but they lacked so much mentally. Kobe was a more athletic version of Grant Hill.

[QUOTE=dreamwarrior]VC and Tmac were athletic freaks, but they lacked so much mentally. [B] Kobe was a more athletic version of Grant Hill[/B].[/QUOTE]
what

[QUOTE=dreamwarrior]VC and [B]Tmac[/B] were athletic freaks, but they lacked so much mentally. Kobe was a more athletic version of Grant Hill.[/QUOTE]
Tmac had the best mentality of any player of that era.

[QUOTE=VeeCee15]Carter could jump higher than MJ
and he had a more explosive first step..hence he was branded as just a dunker in his first year in the league.

Carter had no handles he just first step blew by defenders and dunked it. Kobe could not do that on a consistent basis cause he wasn't Carter level athletic.

No handles and scoring 20 PPG. First step explosive blow by.

Look Kobe came into the league 1997 and Carter game 1999..he was more hyped than kobe in 1999 and in 2000 and 2001 EVEN though he played for a CANADIAN team no one in the USA cared about. Why is that? More athletic, more entertaining and MORE EXPLOSIVE than kobe. And he was on another level athletically than even JORDAN. Thats why there was HYPE. Kobe wasn't really athletic enough to carry the MJ torch and people weren't interested...Carter enters the scene and BAM[/QUOTE]

Ummm Kobe was very much carrying the 'next Jordan' label as early as his second season. I don't know where this 'Kobe wasn't all that athletic' thing came from, he's one of the most athletic players to play. Co-ordination, balance, agility, quickness, go look up some of his signature baseline plays and tell me this guy wasn't an incredible athlete.

And Carter was certainly not on 'another' level athletically from MJ.

[QUOTE=JohnMax][url]https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/11/05/deconstructing-a-myth-vince-carter-having-michael-jordan-potential/[/url]

What I have never understood is the narrative that Vince Carter could have been Michael Jordan and just didn

I don't think anyone honestly thought VC had MJ potential. Was just peeps talking that shit

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Ummm Kobe was very much carrying the 'next Jordan' label as early as his second season. I don't know where this 'Kobe wasn't all that athletic' thing came from, he's one of the most athletic players to play. Co-ordination, balance, agility, quickness, go look up some of his signature baseline plays and tell me this guy wasn't an incredible athlete.

And Carter was certainly not on 'another' level athletically from MJ.[/QUOTE]

this. mg excelled at everything.

when he passed in the finals, he out-assisted magic johnson.

when he defended, he won dpoy and kenny smith said that coaches "wouldn't even run plays on his side of the court." he called him the deion sanders of basketball.

when he wanted to post-up, he could do it easily. kenny smith also went on to say that mj was like "the shaq of shooting guards". no one was strong enough to hold or move him.

when he wanted to, mj could flat-out score. 11 scoring titles, nothing else needs to be said.

when he wanted to, mj could shoot the three. a then nba finals record 6 three-pointers at the half, just unreal.

there is no comparison.

[QUOTE=tontoz]OP ignoring the fact Carter was a far better perimeter shooter than Jordan with a high, unblockable release. For his career he shot 37.4% from 3 on 4 attempts per game.

If he had Jordan's desire he absolutely could have been a GOAT candidate.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=Jacks3]lol

Prime Carter has absolutely no argument over prime Bryant.[/QUOTE]

Yes he does. Especially early on in their careers. 2000-2002 Carter was better than 2000-2002 Kobe.

[QUOTE=Dr. Ice]Tmac had the best mentality of any player of that era.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/images/cms/tracy-mcgrady-playoffs.png[/IMG]

If he had the vertical explosiveness, then certainly he had the ground explosiveness. It's just he didn't know how to unlock that ability to the fullest extent.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Yes he does. Especially early on in their careers. 2000-2002 Carter was better than 2000-2002 Kobe.[/QUOTE]

Except Bryant was clearly better in both years and he wasn't even in his prime at that point. You're delusional. :oldlol:

He could run, jump and dunk but could do nothing else basketball-related better than either MJ or Kobe.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Yes he does. Especially early on in their careers. [B]2000-2002 Carter was better than 2000-2002 Kobe.[/B][/QUOTE]

:biggums:

Carter was a human highlight film in a weak transitioning Eastern conference. In 2000, while he was busy having a subpar series against the Knicks in the playoffs, Kobe was busy doing this:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcgDrzbKI1Q[/url]

this

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jELrZ32qrMI[/url]

and this

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI[/url]

At 21, playing on the biggest stage with the composure of a veteran. Defensively, no comparison. Kobe was a lockdown defender between 2000 and 2002. Now, once Shaq left and he had to carry the offense, he had to pick his spots but even then, no version of Vince defensively was close to Kobe on defense.

2001, Kobe went from budding superstar to elite top 5, breaking down the prime Spurs offense and embarrassing both Robinson and Duncan time and time again. Multiple games of 40 point double-doubles and a 30ppg playoff performance playing against the Blazers, Kings, and Spurs, all championship level competition. Vince had a stellar offensive 2001 campaign, arguably his best season asides from a few years in Jersey, but he wasn't across the board better than Kobe in 2001. The 2001 playoffs should have settled that argument, it was at that point that Kobe established himself as a 'legit' MJ successor.

In 2002, Vince was injured part of the year which was what started the whole 'half man, half injured' moniker. Kobe was still Kobe, proving a 1B compliment to Shaq and winning championships. So no, 2000 to 2002 Vince has no argument over Kobe.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime, but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.[/QUOTE]


I really don't see the argument .....(but I guess anything can be argued)...

I remember there was chatter in 2001( Vince was amazing that year / prolly at his best) .. but Kobe was clearly better then Vince that year and every year after...


yup it began and ended in 2001....Kobe was beasting on offense and defense.....capped it with one of the greatest playoff runs ever...

and to top it off....this happened..[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKUKgVNyOOg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKUKgVNyOOg[/URL]

even Toronto fans recognized....





I remember it was argued that Drexler was better then MJ in 1992....

similar kind of scenario

Kobe wasn't MJ but he was miles better than Vince Carter. He was better than TMac, too. Let's not get carried away.

Glenn Robinson could have been the GOAT if he had MJ's work ethic....

that's the whole point!

so many pro players have all the talent and physical tools....

but what seperates the greats is the love of the game and the insane motivation to become better after they reached the mountain top.

yes MJ had the crazy leaping ability but he kept on working every year to become a better shooter/post player/defender.....he was getting so much better 7 years later! ...

that's what separated him from just becoming Vince Carter...or " air Jordan"...or " Air canada"


If players like MJ or Kobe just relaxed and rested on their physical talent and never got better....then they would have been like Vince or Tmac or countless other players who were spectacular but faded fast.

He didn't. He didn't have Kobe's mentality either but I think he coulda come close to Kobe if he had his drive and had never gotten injured that first time. His injuries are the reason he peaked physically in 2001. He became smarter in NJ but wasn't nearly as fast due to his injury history + the nigguh looked like he was chowin down more cheeseburgers.

[QUOTE=iamgine]If he had the vertical explosiveness, then certainly he had the ground explosiveness. It's just he didn't know how to unlock that ability to the fullest extent.[/QUOTE]

It doesnt work like that. Vince was simply not quick laterally. It hurt his defense.

VC could shoot the 3 better than MJ and jump higher.... that's about it.

I feel like Carters ultimate potential was as a 2 way player. If he had dedicated some time to be a consistent great defender, we would have seen a monster swingman who could score 22-24ppg and stop the other player.

He was stronger than Kobe and other swingmen. He had a longer wingspan than kobe and quicker leap. When he wanted to play defense he actually was fundamental.

There were times he would make crazy blocks or steals and you'd go "MAN he could be a monster"

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNGnVnQPYMA[/url]

Vince's lack of lateral quickness would have curtailed his defensive ability, and he simply didn't focus much effort on that end. MJ and Kobe had the tools as well as the mentality to be lockdown defenders. Tmac was actually capable of great defense, far moreso than Vince, and was a good defensive presence in Toronto before bolting to Orlando and having to completely carry their offense.

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime, but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Velocirap31]Vince had the potential to be greater than Kobe and arguably was in his prime, but Kobe had the work ethic and became a better player for much longer.[/QUOTE]

True.

just another in a long line of players compared to kobe that never lived up

AI, Vince, Tmac, Wade, Harden,

these guys come and gone, kobe stays kobe

Can someone tell me where this 'Kobe wasn't a [U]great [/U]athlete' myth came from? That's what needs to be debunked. I mean seriously:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E__D4QcJC68[/url]

Some of those dunks you had no clue he'd even be able to manufacture into a dunk. His in-air flexibility alone was off the charts. Or are we strictly using vertical leap to determine athleticism?

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Can someone tell me where this 'Kobe wasn't a [U]great [/U]athlete' myth came from? That's what needs to be debunked. I mean seriously:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E__D4QcJC68[/url]

Some of those dunks you had no clue he'd even be able to manufacture into a dunk. His in-air flexibility alone was off the charts. Or are we strictly using vertical leap to determine athleticism?[/QUOTE]

mostly idiotic lebron fans who think one foot leap is the end all be all of athleticism