Could Pippen have played PG and averaged 11 apg?

It's a travesty that people think Pippen was the better passer.

Pippen's handle was BASIC... Consequently, his assists were of the basic variety that didn't require PG-level handles like many of MJ's assists did.. Otoh, MJ's handle and passes had a point-guard level of nuance and sophistication to them.. That's why he was able to average 30/9/11 as a point guard for 24 games and also 33/7/11 in the 1991 Finals.

Is Pippen capable of starting at point guard or averaging 11 apg?... Obviously not.. Pippen's body was more rigid - he couldn't slide through defenders and create like MJ.. MJ's superior handles and scoring ability put his passing game in a different dimension of sophistication from what Pippen did.. MJ got equal or greater assists while scoring 50% to 120% more.

Anyone that says Pippen is a better passer either doesn't understand basketball or is taking a devil's advocate position because they hate how much MJ is revered.

[COLOR="Navy"]MJ had a point guard-level handle and passing ability - Pippen did not.[/COLOR]
.

No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/Q7f0-F.gif[/IMG]


No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already


[/QUOTE]
Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

He got lucky averaging 30/9/11 for 24 games, including 10 triple doubles in 11 games... and then 33/7/11 in the Finals... It was all coincidence.. :facepalm

No.

6>5>1.5*

what a coincidence 11 assist 24 games

then 11 assist in the finals 5 games

= he could average 11 assist for the whole season

[QUOTE=3ball]Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

He got lucky averaging 30/9/11 for 24 games, including 10 triple doubles in 11 games... and then 33/7/11 in the Finals... It was all coincidence.. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Now you're resorting to an arbitrary 24 game sample size? What exactly does that prove? Wade had a month stretch in 2009 averging 37 ppg and 11 apg. You could probably cherry pick a stretch of games from any great player to make it look like they were better at something than they really were.

Could MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, Like Pippen did multiple times without Jordan?

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

Now you're resorting to an arbitrary 24 game sample size? What exactly does that prove? Wade had a month stretch in 2009 averging 37 ppg and 11 apg. You could probably cherry pick a stretch of games from any great player to make it look like they were better at something than they really were.

[/QUOTE]
[I]Wade is a better passer than Pippen too.. :confusedshrug: .. Similar to MJ, Wade had a PG-level handle and passing ability, whereas Pippen did not.[/I]

Pippen was just a novelty at point-forward so everyone noticed him every time he dribbled.. But his handle was nowhere near the nuance and sophistication of Wade or MJ, whose handle was considered elite for [I]guards[/I].. But their status as guards meant that no one gave them extra props for being able to dribble.. Again, most of this idea that Pippen was a better passer is simply a devil's advocate stance taken by fans who are tired of MJ.

In Wade's case, given his pg-level handle and passing ability, it's not surprise he had a great stretch where he put up high assist and scoring numbers.. Otoh, Pippen has no such stretch... (And btw, nobody's stretch is anywhere near as long as MJ's 24 games - not Wade's, not Lebron's, not Westbrook's - their stretches are literally half as long... And only Westbrook's included a triple-double stretch, which was still half as long as MJ's).

But back to the point of the thread - Pippen's passing ability isn't anywhere near MJ's, due to his non-point guard-level handle and inability to average 11 apg during ANY stretch, let alone a stretch twice as long as Lebron, Wade or Westbrook ever had (or in the Finals).

Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:[/QUOTE]
That's not what the OP said - the OP said that Pippen could never start at point guard like MJ, because he doesn't have a point guard-level handle like MJ did.. Pippen also isn't capable of averaging 11 apg over ANY stretch, let alone 24 games like MJ.

You're forgetting that MJ's 24 games is twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade and Westbrook averaged that many assists - their stretches of 11 apg were half as long as MJ's - but they also had a pg-level handle... Pippen doesn't have a PG-level handle or the ability to average 11 apg... Therefore, he's nowhere near the passer MJ was..

Pippen was just a novelty at point-forward so everyone noticed him every time he dribbled.. But his handle was nowhere near the nuance and sophistication of Wade, MJ, or Westbrook, whose handle was considered elite for [I]guards[/I].. But their status as guards meant that no one gave them extra props for being able to dribble.. Again, most of this idea that Pippen was a better passer is simply a devil's advocate stance taken by fans who are tired of MJ.

I think Pippen would have been a GREAT PG. At the SF position, he already had elite PG handles and pace to his game. He would have been a 6'8 PG would could ACTUALLY defend the smaller PG's well. So u wouldn't have to do cross matchups like the Lakers did with Magic. But to get 11 assists a night, I think u have to be great at PASSING GUYS OPEN!

In other words, threading the needle, no look passes, and literally making guys be open WHO HAVE NO BUSINESS being open. Pippen wasn't really prolific in that realm of passing to get 10-11 apg year after year. Could I see Pip averaging 10 dimes in a given season? Sure! But I don't see him going any higher than that.

If Pip played PG, I see him getting a Paytonesque 20-22 points, 8-9 dimes, and world class lockdown defense. But Pippen could also add 8 boards a night to that. Guys like Pippen and Payton were great passers, but are on that second tier behind guys like Magic, Big O, Nash, Zeke, Kidd, and Stockton.

Could Jordan? No. At least not consistently.

[QUOTE=bizil]

I think Pippen would have been a GREAT PG. At the SF position, he already had elite PG handles

[/quote]
Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble - to have an elite handle, a player must be able to break guys down off the dribble like isiah thomas, tim hardaway, Wade or Jordan.. or guys like grant hill or michael ray richardson.

pippen didnt have elite handle like these guys.. i would say Pip's handle was above-average for a guard at best - but nowhere near elite - you need breakdown ability for that.


[QUOTE=bizil]

He would have been a 6'8 PG [B]would could ACTUALLY defend the smaller PG's well.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Other than the 1998 ECF when pippen guarded the slowest pg of all time (mark jackson), when did pippen ever guard a smaller pg?.. MJ did it all the time, but Pippen never did.

Pippen almost always guarded the other team's SF... It was MJ who guarded the other teams PG or SG, whoever was better.. MJ was the quicker player and he was a SG, so guarding PG's was far more feasible for him than Pippen.

[QUOTE=MP.Trey]

Could Jordan? No. [B]At least not consistently.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
You need EVIDENCE to say the bolded above - you need a stretch where MJ played point guard and DIDN'T average 11 apg.. But we don't have that.

All we have is MJ averaging 11 apg for the only time period that he was at point guard (24 games, almost 2 months).. And that stretch was approximately twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade, and Westbrook averaged 11 apg.

So the only evidence we have is that Jordan WAS capable of doing it consistently - in his [U]first-ever run[/U] at PG, he put up prime Oscar type numbers - [I]you can't do any better in your first run at PG - so to say that "oh, he wouldn't have been able to play PG at an elite level" isn't logical - all the evidence we have says he would[/I].


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/0X7oDr.gif[/IMG]


^^^ this is from the beginning of the OP video.. Apparently, MJ scored half his team's 4th quarter points in 1988.. That makes sense since Pippen and Grant were rookies that didn't start (they only played 20 minutes per game each) and their averages were 8/4/2 and 8/6/1, respectively.

In 1989, Pippen and Grant improved to 14/6/3 and 12/9/2, but Pippen's 14 ppg wasn't much for a 2nd option and he was wildly inconsistent - overall, the team was worse talent-wise because they'd lost Charles Oakley.. Consequently, they only won 47 games in 1989 (less than 1988) and only managed a 6-seed going into the playoffs.

However, MJ played better than any player ever has in the 1989 playoffs, which allowed his underdog team to make the ECF - he averaged 40/6/8 against a 57-win Cleveland team, who had the #2 defense and 3 all-stars (Daughtery, Nance, Price) plus 20 ppg budding superstar Ron Harper.. In the 2nd Round, MJ averaged 36/9/8 against the Knicks... In the ECF, the Bulls fell to Detroit, despite MJ's 30/6/7 against the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s]"Jordan Rules"[/url] and greatest defense of all time, featuring All-NBA defenders Rodman and Dumars..

Unfortunately for MJ, Pippen only averaged 10/7 on 40% in that series and provided very little help - this would become a trend - in 1990 ECF, Pippen disappeared in Game 7 of ECF.. In the 1996 Finals, he was abysmal with 15 ppg on 34%, which was similar to the 1998 Finals, where he averaged 15 ppg on 41%, including 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games.. During the 1996-1998 playoffs (2nd three-peat), Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8%.
.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]You need EVIDENCE to say the bolded above - you need a stretch where MJ played point guard and DIDN'T average 11 apg.. But we don't have that.[/B]

All we have is MJ averaging 11 apg for the only time period that he was at point guard (24 games, almost 2 months).. And that stretch was approximately twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade, and Westbrook averaged 11 apg.

So the only evidence we have is that Jordan WAS capable of doing it consistently - in his [U]first-ever run[/U] at PG, he put up prime Oscar type numbers - [I]you can't do any better in your first run at PG - so to say that "oh, he wouldn't have been able to play PG at an elite level" isn't logical - all the evidence we have says he would[/I].[/QUOTE]
Provide EVIDENCE where Pippen played PG and didn't average 11 apg, over an adequate sample size.

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already[/QUOTE]
Literally word for word, this is the best answer I've ever seen in any thread. It covers every base.

Could Pippen? No
Could Jordan? No
Jordan did once? No he didn't; sample size too small
Shut up already

Love it.

[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble - to have an elite handle, a player must be able to break guys down off the dribble like isiah thomas, tim hardaway, Wade or Jordan.. or guys like grant hill or michael ray richardson.

[B]pippen didnt have elite handle like these guys.. i would say Pip's handle was above-average for a guard at best - but nowhere near elite - you need breakdown ability for that[/B].



[B]Other than the 1998 ECF when pippen guarded the slowest pg of all time (mark jackson), when did pippen ever guard a smaller pg?.. MJ did it all the time, but Pippen never did.[/B]

Pippen almost always guarded the other team's SF... It was MJ who guarded the other teams PG or SG, whoever was better.. MJ was the quicker player and he was a SG, so guarding PG's was far more feasible for him than Pippen.[/QUOTE]
Agree that Pippen didn't have an elite handle, which is why he couldn't average 11 APG, short of gunning for assists. He was a little too rigid in his motions, for a PG, to really "jitter-bug" around and wreak havoc. What he would do, as a floor general, would be to set up the offense, and use his superior height and length to look over the D and make other passes that traditionally sized PGs could not make. Still wouldn't average 11 APG though. As a full-time PG I'd see Pippen doing more like 20/6/9 with elite D.

As for the guarding aspect... :biggums: John. Stockton.

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:[/QUOTE]

Bro, you cant be the qb and receiver at the same time so just because jordan prefers to be the scorer doesnt mean he cant be a pg.

Jordan isn't a top 5 passer at his position, let alone better than Pippen.

Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.

^ Would Pippen have made a great PG from early in his career, or was his stint at PG on the TB successful due to a combination of the right team and his huge amount of experience?

And it makes you wonder how we would regard Pippen if that team had won a title.

Correction on my Riley comment. He had a big game but only 4 assists:



Against the Magic, he collected 25 points, 17 rebounds
one shy of his career high seven assists and no
turnovers in 32 minutes.
Against the Heat on Wednesday, the ageless warrior
contributed 26 points on 9-of-14 shooting, six rebounds,
four assists and five steals in 34 minutes.
'Scottie absolutely dominated that game,' Riley
marveled. 'He did everything he had to do to get his
team over the top.'

At 6-8, Pippen is bigger than just about everybody he
matches up with at point guard. He has been effective
posting up and scoring or drawing the double-team and
finding the open man. Occasionally he gets burned
defensively by a quicker foe, but the Blazers have almost
always gotten the better of the matchup, and his defense
help and court leadership is invaluable.





Pippen was one of those players who simply generated good chemistry. I'd take that over any number from my point guard.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]

don't know how many people really understand your point, but good effort. :applause:

[QUOTE=Marchesk]^ Would Pippen have made a great PG from early in his career, or was his stint at PG on the TB successful due to a combination of the right team and his huge amount of experience?

And it makes you wonder how we would regard Pippen if that team had won a title.[/QUOTE]
Agreed - Pippen's wasn't asked to do anything on the Blazers other than be a steady player that didn't screw anything up.

He wasn't asked to beat his man off the dribble and get in the lane to create.. He just stood at the top of the key and swung the ball from one side to the other - he was super-old and averaged 11 ppg and 5 apg as a Blazer - but yeah, to some people, that means he would've been an elite PG in his prime like MJ was.

The funny thing is that even in his prime, Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble in the halfcourt or create his shot that well - for the most part, the lane had to already be kind of open or the defense had to be shifting and produce a semi-open lane for him to drive..
.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/6yNmoX.gif[/IMG]


It's funny how you guys seek out quotes from players and coaches who say nice things about Scottie.

Scottie is the only guy who requires that - we don't need quotes for Barkley, Malone, Stockton, McHale, Wade, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler, you name it...

But for some reason, the quotes come out when we start talking about Pippen.. Could it be because his offense was literally anemic on many occasion and he couldn't create his own shot?... Yup... That has a super-ton to do with it.

[QUOTE=swagga]don't know how many people really understand your point, but good effort. :applause:[/QUOTE]

Ironic coming from a bran stan. Lol

No, especially not in the triangle. Not many players can. As stated throughout the thread, MJ couldn't either. :coleman:

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855] Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score...

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? [/QUOTE]

^This^

Also I'll allow Pippen's teammates to confirm what Kblaze just said:

[I]Scottie was not only a great player, but a great teammate as well

Jordan averaged 3.5 assists a game from 1996-1998 :lol

Shaq-esque

[QUOTE=3ball][IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/6yNmoX.gif[/IMG]


It's funny how you guys seek out quotes from players and coaches who say nice things about Scottie.

Scottie is the only guy who requires that - we don't need quotes for Barkley, Malone, Stockton, McHale, Wade, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler, you name it...

But for some reason, the quotes come out when we start talking about Pippen.. [/QUOTE]
You use quotes all the time in an effort to justify your point.

[QUOTE]Could it be because his offense was literally anemic on many occasion and he couldn't create his own shot?... Yup... That has a super-ton to do with it.[/QUOTE]
The example you use is horrible. Pippen tried to isolate his man and Kukoc wouldn't leave that area which forced him into taking a desperation shot.

[QUOTE=3ball]It's a travesty that people think Pippen was the better passer.

Pippen's handle was BASIC... Consequently, his assists were of the basic variety that didn't require PG-level handles like many of MJ's assists did.. Otoh, MJ's handle and passes had a point-guard level of nuance and sophistication to them.. That's why he was able to average 30/9/11 as a point guard for 24 games and also 33/7/11 in the 1991 Finals.

Is Pippen capable of starting at point guard or averaging 11 apg?... Obviously not.. Pippen's body was more rigid - he couldn't slide through defenders and create like MJ.. MJ's superior handles and scoring ability put his passing game in a different dimension of sophistication from what Pippen did.. MJ got equal or greater assists while scoring 50% to 120% more.

Anyone that says Pippen is a better passer either doesn't understand basketball or is taking a devil's advocate position because they hate how much MJ is revered.

[COLOR="Navy"]MJ had a point guard-level handle and passing ability - Pippen did not.[/COLOR]
.[/QUOTE]

Pippen could not played PG (of course he is not at MJ skill level) with great success - he could fulfill the position for some periods if needed but this is not his natural position. MJ could of course and still be among the best players on floor.
The Bulls got another forward who could play PG and his name is Tony Kukoc. He played PG in Europe for real and was chosen 3 time European player of the year prior to his NBA debut. When at Bulls he was used as PF and was told to gain 30 pounds. But PF position was not for Tony and he never played PF in Europe or with Yugoslavian/Croatia team.

Jordan wouldn't have averaged 11+ apg for a season playing a winning brand of basketball, but people are kidding themselves if they don't think that '89-'93 Jordan, in a more Jordan-centric offense (not the triangle), would have been at 8+ apg annually. If he dominated the ball like modern wings do (Wade, Lebron, to a lesser extend Kobe), he would easily average 9+ apg in his prime years. He was just too dangerous and made too many things happen on the court not to.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Jordan wouldn't have averaged 11+ apg for a season playing a winning brand of basketball, but people are kidding themselves if they don't think that '89-'93 Jordan, in a more Jordan-centric offense (not the triangle), would have been at 8+ apg annually. If he dominated the ball like modern wings do (Wade, Lebron, to a lesser extend Kobe), he would easily average 9+ apg in his prime years. He was just too dangerous and made too many things happen on the court not to.[/QUOTE]

He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.

Dominating the ball to incredibly high usage rates while constantly forcing the ball into spots where teammates aren't comfortable shooting is good for 3 - 4 extra assists but it isn't conducive to even winning regular season games. The bulls had their worst ORTG rank of the prime Jordan ('88 - '93) era in '89.

[QUOTE=plowking]He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.[/QUOTE]

Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.

3ball constantly hating on bron for his stat padding through ball domination leading to losing and acting like MJ wasn't doing the exact same thing in 89

:yaohappy:

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Dominating the ball to incredibly high usage rates while constantly forcing the ball into spots where teammates aren't comfortable shooting is good for 3 - 4 extra assists but it isn't conducive to even winning regular season games. The bulls had their worst ORTG rank of the prime Jordan ('88 - '93) era in '89.[/QUOTE]
The offense was already bad thats why they switched Mj there and they made they made it to the ecf with Mj averaging 8 asts the whole playoffs. Mj led the bulls in the playoffs in asts in 88,89,90,91,93

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.[/QUOTE]

Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.

[QUOTE=plowking]He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.[/QUOTE]
What's so had about what Wade and James do? They basically iso then drive and kick.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]What's so had about what Wade and James do? They basically iso then drive and kick.[/QUOTE]

Sure, if you want to sum it up like that, than Jordan did even less.