Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.
I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.
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Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.
I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.
Yes.
Even though it doesn't answer the question.
Kobe and Lebron
worse
this is a shooters league
the paint is clogged
PGs are the main ball dominant guys now
team flow and less isolation
less coaches willing to allow mid range game
back to the basket post up games are obsolete
jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him
nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring
[QUOTE=KG215]Yes.
Even though it doesn't answer the question.[/QUOTE]
Whoops. Better or worse
:cheers:
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]worse
this is a shooters league
the paint is clogged
PGs are the main ball dominant guys now
team flow and less isolation
less coaches willing to allow mid range game
back to the basket post up games are obsolete
jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him
nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring[/QUOTE]
The Perimeter rules might be more lax, but as you said, its a shooters league. The rules have also obliterated post ups which were a big part of MJ's game, especially during the 2nd three-peat.
This is why Jordan would be less efficient albeit still dominant, and probably the best player in the game.
[QUOTE=catch24]Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.
I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.[/QUOTE]
You don't have to take alot of 3s to be great in todays league. Look at Wade and LJ that ome year in Miami.
Roughly the same, but possibly a slightly higher TS% in his prime. I also think he'd put up ABSURD steal/block numbers from age 23-28 due to zone rules. Like 2.8 stl/1.2+ blk annually, peaking at 3.2+ stl/1.7+ blk for a year or two in his younger days.
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]
the paint is clogged[/QUOTE]
LMAo. Paint is WAY more open than for the first 8-10 years of Jordan's career at a minimum.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Roughly the same, but possibly a slightly higher TS% in his prime. I also think he'd put up ABSURD steal/block numbers from age 23-28 due to zone rules. Like 2.8 stl/1.2+ blk annually, peaking at 3.2+ stl/1.7+ blk for a year or two in his younger days.[/QUOTE]
Are you really 37-38 yrs.old?? Every time a Jordan thread was started. You just posts from out of nowhere.
Considering the game is now dominated by perimeter players, I'd say he'd do even better than in his era. Without the handcheck and the ability to camp the paint, defenders will not be able to defend against the GOAT. :bowdown:
[QUOTE=juju151111]You don't have to take alot of 3s to be great in todays league. Look at Wade and LJ that ome year in Miami.[/QUOTE]
True, but LeBron has definitely worked on his 3PT shot and its played dividends. Could you imagine him with no long ball AND in-between game? Teams that defend him like the Spurs do would make a complete fool out of the guy. Literally.
Wade is great, but he's not in the same class as MJ, who also made the 3 ball a part of his repertoire.
[QUOTE=catch24]The Perimeter rules might be more lax, but as you said, its a shooters league. The rules have also obliterated post ups which were a big part of MJ's game, especially during the 2nd three-peat.
This is why Jordan would be less efficient albeit still dominant, and probably the best player in the game.[/QUOTE]
How has the rules obliterated post ups? You mean perimeter players have gotten worse. LJ didn't win a championship until he got better in the Post. 09-11 Kobe stayed in the post and so did 14 Durant. Mj is better then all these players in the Post. He will be more efficient cause he not chucking 3s. Look at Wade in 09
Every star perimeter player who was drafted in the mid 90s didn't have their career best scoring year until after the rule changes of the mid 00s. That was no coincidence. MJ, a superior player to them all by a comfortable margin, would not mysteriously and inexplicably buck that trend.
Captain Marvel with James Harden's FTr has at least 1 40 PPG season.
[QUOTE=catch24]I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.[/QUOTE]
Dwyane Wade and Tony Parker, multiple champions/finals MVPs/scoring champion say hello. Their career 3s/gm in this era are identical to Jordan's in his. How much did not chucking 3s mindlessly hurt their efficiency? Check the $tats.
[QUOTE=catch24]True, but LeBron has definitely worked on his 3PT shot and its played dividends. Could you imagine him with no long ball AND in-between game? Teams that defend him like the Spurs do would make a complete fool out of the guy. Literally.
Wade is great, but he's not in the same class as MJ, who also made the 3 ball a part of his repertoire.[/QUOTE]
Wade in 09 only took 1.1 three points per game. Thats not alot. LJ never even won until he got a post game
[QUOTE=juju151111]Wade in 09 only took 1.1 three points per game. Thats not alot. LJ never even won until he got a post game[/QUOTE]
That was 6 years ago, and Wade's efficiency dropped significantly in the playoffs.
Today there seems to more of an emphasis in either shooting 3's, or driving to the basket. Like I said, MJ would still be the best player in the game, but he would have to adjust his game doing so. Unless he's getting more freethrows, his TS, eFG and FG percentages would drop some.
[QUOTE=catch24]Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.
I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.[/QUOTE]
Best player in the game.
I don't think he would see a drop in efficiency and if there is, it's probably miniscule. Yes it is a game for more 3 point shooting, but counters for a perimeter player who doesn't have a good 3 point shot or doesn't rely on them heavily is getting to the basket, getting to the line, having a good/great mid-range, having a good post up game and having good/great passing. Jordan definitely thrives in all of that and would be great today.
The real question for me is how many 3's would he attempt in a league that many perimeter player's take ? Would he be challenged to take many and fall in love with the 3 pointer or would he continue to drive/post up in the paint ?
His FG% would be lower, as he'd be taking more 3's, because that's what players do these days.
He'd go to the line more, because star perimeter players go to the line at a higher rate today.
He had more than enough midrange to beat a zone, so I don't see that hurting him too much. The open lanes from from three pointer spacing, lack of handchecking, and extra trips to the line would help his TS% more than zones would hurt it.
Overall he'd be slightly more efficient in todays game, probably 59-65%TS, but the game is also moving towards more team oriented play, and the best scorers are shooting 17-20 times a game, where as he was shooting 24-26 times a game, so his FGA(and his PPG) may actually come down a bit.
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Best player in the game.
I don't think he would see a drop in efficiency and if there is, it's probably miniscule. Yes it is a game for more 3 point shooting, but counters for a perimeter player who doesn't have a good 3 point shot or doesn't rely on them heavily is getting to the basket, getting to the line, having a good/great mid-range, having a good post up game and having good/great passing. Jordan definitely thrives in all of that and would be great today.
[B]The real question for me is how many 3's would he attempt in a league that many perimeter player's take [/B]? [B]Would he be challenged to take many and fall in love with the 3 pointer or would he continue to drive/post up in the paint ?[/B][/QUOTE]
The bold is something that I've been wondering myself. I would learn toward more, hence my affinity for pointing out his efficiency :oldlol: (would probably be a marginal drop off, as you said, but still a drop off).
People don't realize that even today the league is a little different than it was in 2009. Advanced metrics are far more prevelant, and coaches seem to emphasize taking less midrange shots. I hate it, but that's the reality here.
[QUOTE=juju151111]You don't have to take alot of 3s to be great in todays league. Look at Wade and LJ that ome year in Miami.[/QUOTE]
The game changed a LOT defensively after the Celtics won their title. They kinda provided the NBA with the blue print for the modern zone defense which has really changed the game.
00-10 or so MJ would have been unstoppable. Today the rules changes would pose problems for him. That said he can penetrate better than a Harden. MJ's shot is a bit under valued. Just to illustrate it while he slumped in 98 (and stopped shooting them) his 95-97 3 point shooting was 3.3 attempts per game on 40.4% shooting. I believe if he'd needed that aspect of his game to be more dominant he would have developed it sooner in his career.
I think he'd have very effective in today's more complex offenses playing off the ball and in pick and rolls. Also as is always the case, if you're an outlier and you're great at something, you can get away with it. If defenses were giving MJ mid range shots, I'm pretty sure his coach would let HIM take those.
I'm not sure we'd see a 37 a game season out of him, but I don't think the rules would be to his detriment. Lets also not forget that historically the 2 guard spot in the NBA is the weakest positional player. If you have a 2 guard who has jordan's ability to get to the basket, I'm pretty sure the same rules that help point guard would help Jordan.
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]worse
this is a shooters league
the paint is clogged
PGs are the main ball dominant guys now
team flow and less isolation
less coaches willing to allow mid range game
back to the basket post up games are obsolete
jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him
nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring[/QUOTE]
this is a shooters league - What does this have to do on MJ being worse?
the paint is clogged - compare to 90s?
PGs are the main ball dominant guys now - again, I dont understand how does this relate to MJ's superior scoring and defensively?
team flow and less isolation - Have you watched 2015 final? lol
less coaches willing to allow mid range game - wtf?
back to the basket post up games are obsolete - Players today are really regressing instead of obsolete. OMG, strange thought of you :biggums:
I think he puts up slightly less points due to emphasis on team play, on slightly better TS%, and averages slightly less blocks.
Maybe half a rebound more over his career given the dynamism of today's defenses in terms of constantly moving and smaller guys occasionally finding themselves down lower on the block.
Over the last 7 or 8 years he'd compete with Bron for best player in the league consistently.
[QUOTE=plowking]I think he puts up slightly less points due to emphasis on team play, on slightly better TS%, and averages slightly less blocks.
Maybe half a rebound more over his career given the dynamism of today's defenses in terms of constantly moving and smaller guys occasionally finding themselves down lower on the block.
Over the last 7 or 8 years he'd compete with Bron for best player in the league consistently.[/QUOTE]
This is a good answer, and in line with my thoughts.
[QUOTE=catch24]That was 6 years ago, and Wade's efficiency dropped significantly in the playoffs.
Today there seems to more of an emphasis in either shooting 3's, or driving to the basket. Like I said, MJ would still be the best player in the game, but he would have to adjust his game doing so. Unless he's getting more freethrows, his TS, eFG and FG percentages would drop some.[/QUOTE]
Tony Parker dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: [B][COLOR="Red"]1 3A/gm[/COLOR], 50.2% FG, .560 TS%, .516 eFG% *2 trips to the finals, 1 championship won*[/B]
Dwyane Wade dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: [B][COLOR="Red"]1.5 3A/gm[/COLOR], 50.4% FG, .567 TS%, .517 eFG% *4 trips to the finals, 2 championships won*[/B]
Where on Earth are you getting this notion that not chucking 3s makes you inefficient? :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=dhsilv]The game changed a LOT defensively after the Celtics won their title. They kinda provided the NBA with the blue print for the modern zone defense which has really changed the game.
00-10 or so MJ would have been unstoppable. Today the rules changes would pose problems for him. That said he can penetrate better than a Harden. MJ's shot is a bit under valued. Just to illustrate it while he slumped in 98 (and stopped shooting them) his 95-97 3 point shooting was 3.3 attempts per game on 40.4% shooting. I believe if he'd needed that aspect of his game to be more dominant he would have developed it sooner in his career.
I think he'd have very effective in today's more complex offenses playing off the ball and in pick and rolls. Also as is always the case, if you're an outlier and you're great at something, you can get away with it. If defenses were giving MJ mid range shots, I'm pretty sure his coach would let HIM take those.
I'm not sure we'd see a 37 a game season out of him, but I don't think the rules would be to his detriment. Lets also not forget that historically the 2 guard spot in the NBA is the weakest positional player. If you have a 2 guard who has jordan's ability to get to the basket, I'm pretty sure the same rules that help point guard would help Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Bro what iare you talking about? They didn't change the rules in 2011 and that same Wade destroyed Boston in the playoffs in 2010. Their out of this world defense didn't work then huh?
He's be behind Durant and LeBron for sure.
Probably behind AD
I see him in the tier with Harden, Westbrook, and Paul
Jordan played in the most watered down league in history in terms of perimeter talent. There were a couple decent big men but they were all soft losers..non intimidating bums who couldn't win in any era. Jordan played with the most stacked teams and arguably the GOAT coach too...
LeBron and Durant do it by themselves essentially. Jordan was playing with teams winning damn near 60 games without him. :oldlol:
FOH.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Tony Parker dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: [B][COLOR="Red"]1 3A/gm[/COLOR], 50.2% FG, .560 TS%, .516 eFG% *2 trips to the finals, 1 championship won*[/B]
Dwyane Wade dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: [B][COLOR="Red"]1.5 3A/gm[/COLOR], 50.4% FG, .567 TS%, .517 eFG% *4 trips to the finals, 2 championships won*[/B]
Where on Earth are you getting this notion that not chucking 3s makes you inefficient? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Parker's volume isn't even close to Jordan's, and Wade's has dropped a ton since he teamed up with LBJ.
Not the greatest comparison tbh
[QUOTE=catch24]That was 6 years ago, and Wade's efficiency dropped significantly in the playoffs.
Today there seems to more of an emphasis in either shooting 3's, or driving to the basket. Like I said, MJ would still be the best player in the game, but he would have to adjust his game doing so. Unless he's getting more freethrows, his TS, eFG and FG percentages would drop some.[/QUOTE]
His efficiency dropped because he played bad. What about the other 77 regular season. What about the next year when he destroyed Boston in the playoffs. Noting hasn't changed in 6 years. Why do you people say dumb shit.
[QUOTE=plowking]I think he puts up slightly less points due to emphasis on team play, on slightly better TS%, and averages slightly less blocks.
Maybe half a rebound more over his career given the dynamism of today's defenses in terms of constantly moving and smaller guys occasionally finding themselves down lower on the block.
Over the last 7 or 8 years he'd compete with Bron for best player in the league consistently.[/QUOTE]
Mj was playing in a team ball. Bro he wasn't holding the ball like LJ. Go look at the Bulls they averaged 20+ asts
[QUOTE=juju151111]His efficiency dropped because he played bad. What about the other 77 regular season. What about the next year when he destroyed Boston in the playoffs. Noting hasn't changed in 6 years. Why do you people say dumb shit.[/QUOTE]
I already said dude would be the best player, and you're still getting sensitive. Give the stanning a rest. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]He's be behind Durant and LeBron for sure.
Probably behind AD
I see him in the tier with Harden, Westbrook, and Paul
Jordan played in the most watered down league in history in terms of perimeter talent. There were a couple decent big men but they were all soft losers..non intimidating bums who couldn't win in any era. Jordan played with the most stacked teams and arguably the GOAT coach too...
[B]LeBron and Durant do it by themselves essentially. Jordan was playing with teams winning damn near 60 games without him.[/B] :oldlol:
FOH.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.supersportscenter.com/images/product/medium/2528.jpg[/IMG]
FOH indeed.
And as far as I know, this man LeBron has yet to issue a formal, public apology to Mr. Whistle for costing him his 4th ring and 2nd Finals MVP in 2011.
[QUOTE]Parker's volume isn't even close to Jordan's, and Wade's has dropped a ton since he teamed up with LBJ.
Not the greatest comparison tbh[/QUOTE]
MJ, Wade, Parker have all won multiple championships, finals MVPs, scoring titles, etc while all taking 1.4-1.7 3s/gm and all averaged above 49% FG for their careers, having shot 50-55% FG multiple times. Regardless of era, rules, etc.
But if MJ played today, he'd be forced to play like Steph Curry.
OK.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]MJ, Wade, Parker have all won multiple championships, finals MVPs, scoring titles, etc while all taking 1.4-1.7 3s/gm and all averaged above 49% FG for their careers, having shot 50-55% FG multiple times. Regardless of era, rules, etc.
But if MJ played today, he'd be forced to play like Steph Curry.
OK.[/QUOTE]
Wade and Parker have substantially less volume, so I'm not sure why you're repeating what you just posted.
How many threes do you think he would take, and how many scoring titles would he grab over KD? To me KD is already one of the greatest scorers of all-time, and basically in the same tier (scoring) with MJ.
[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj was playing in a team ball. Bro he wasn't holding the ball like LJ. Go look at the Bulls they averaged 20+ asts[/QUOTE]
Apparently 'team ball' = one dude dribbling around the top of the key for 20 sec. while the other 4 guys clear out and watch and then the ball being passed out for a bail out shot.
[QUOTE=catch24]I already said dude would be the best player, and you're still getting sensitive. Give the stanning a rest. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
No it not about that. This is just discussion i usually have with people here and they never can actually prove their case. Can 02 Kobe play in todays league. That was 13 years ago. When the defense was superior. The points you guys are giving to why his stats would decrease or increase makes no sense
About the same, probably a little easier though.
You can't body up like the Pistons or Knicks of the 80s/90s tried to do, so that's out, and there's not nearly as many 7 foot giants like Hakeem, Mutombo, DRob, Ewing, Shaq, etc. waiting at the rim to challenge your shot.
There's no one that I've seen who's as fast as he is a 6 foot 6 in the league. Not with the explosive start/stop first step.
As long as he has that, combined with the leaping ability, he can get his shot off in virtually any era. That's just basically a fact based on his physical attributes.
You can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, and given his basketball I.Q. it was usually a high quality shot.
I think maybe he'd be a little bit stronger because athletes today have access to better supplements and training is more sophisticated than it was 20-25 years ago.
Jordan is an any era player. He would dominate in any time, any era, against any competition.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Apparently 'team ball' = one dude dribbling around the top of the key for 20 sec. while the other 4 guys clear out and watch and then the ball being passed out for a bail out shot.[/QUOTE]
Apparent so
[QUOTE=catch24]Wade and Parker have substantially less volume, so I'm not sure why you're repeating what you just posted.
How many threes do you think he would take, and how many scoring titles would he grab over KD? To me KD is already one of the greatest scorers of all-time, and basically in the same tier (scoring) with MJ.[/QUOTE]
What about 09 and 10 Wade in terms of volume. He did it fine against them.
He would suck. Hand checking was actually beneficial for the offensive player and only smart people realize this and I don't see how good spacing would benefit an athletic perimeter player from getting to the basket.
It's a lot easier when there is hand checking allowed, with less spacing and hard fouls are allowed.
Jesus people are stupid. MJ wouldn't be able to handle the NBA today.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Apparently 'team ball' = one dude dribbling around the top of the key for 20 sec. while the other 4 guys clear out and watch and then the ball being passed out for a bail out shot.[/QUOTE]
We saw team ball when MJ left and they won 60 games without him.
Unfortunately for LeBron he was surrounded by the likes of Matthew Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, JR smith, Tristan Thompson, and Tim Mozgov.
:oldlol:
You try playing team ball with these dudes against the best offense/defense in the league and they get bodied by 30 in every game.
LeBron winning 2 games against Golden State is more impressive than most of Jordans rings. And that's just reality.
I know you Jordan stans don't do well with context though, so carry on with your lame outdated agenda...:sleeping
[QUOTE=catch24]Wade and Parker have substantially less volume, so I'm not sure why you're repeating what you just posted.[/QUOTE]
Prime Wade from '05-'06: 27 PPG, 20 FGA, 2.3 3A/gm (11.5% of his shots), 48.7% FG *Championship, 2006 Finals MVP*
Past prime MJ from '95-'98: 30 PPG, 23 FGA, 2.8 3A/gm (c. 12% of his shots), 48.2% FG *3 Championships, '96, '97, '98 Finals MVP*
What are you not understanding here? No one is being forced to chuck 3s against their will. Certain players, teams/coaches just prefer to try to get their points that way. Other players, teams/coaches... [I]multiple time champions in this era[/I], go about it in another way.
[QUOTE]How many threes do you think he would take, and how many scoring titles would he grab over KD? To me KD is already one of the greatest scorers of all-time, and basically in the same tier (scoring) with MJ.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, KD is a great scorer and all but he's not on Jordan's level FOH. Dude gets muscled out of the post by the 6'4" Tony Allen for f*ckssake. Hell of a 3 and FT shooter though. That always helps the ole TS%. Dude barely eeked out one of his scoring titles against a washed up Kobe.
Jordan would take full advantage of the fact that no one would be allowed to touch him or physically impede him and would drive, post up, hit the mid range like he always did (and a smaller, less talented player like Wade has done). With Harden-like or D-Whistle era FTr, he'd push 40 PPG on a shitty squad.
But I'm sure DPOY/First team all NBA center Joakim Noah would have something to say about it.
[IMG]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif[/IMG]