FACT: MJ never lost a series where his team had the HCA.

1984-85 - Bulls 38-44 - Lost to Milwaukee (59-23)
1985-86 - Bulls 30-52 - Lost to Celtics (67-15) - [B]Champs[/B]
1986-87 - Bulls 40-42 - Lost to Celtics (59-23) - Lost Finals
1987-88 - Bulls 50-32 - Lost to Pistons (54-28) - Lost Finals
1988-89 - Bulls 47-35 - Lost to Pistons (63-19) - [B]Champs[/B]
1989-90 - Bulls 55-27 - Lost to Pistons (59-23) - [B]Champs[/B]


MJs numbers from this period (first 6 seasons):

Reg season: [B]32.8 PPG, 29.9 PER, 6.3 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.8 spg[/B]
Playoffs: [B]35.8 PPG, 29.7 PER, 6.9 rpg, 6.7 apg, 2.5 spg[/B]

We all know what he did starting the 1990-91 season. But this gives you a perspective on what type of help MJ had and what type of teams he had to go up against. All-time great, legendary teams. He really had no chance. It wasn't until Pippen and Grant matured along with PJ coming on board as coach when MJ had enough firepower to start beating elite teams. But look at his individual numbers during this time, just dominant from the get go. This is what the GOAT does.

Drop the mic.

Thanks, this has been well talked about.

And MJ might've won his first title a year sooner in 1990 if Pippen didn't have the worst game EVER for a 2nd fiddle star in a game 7.

2 point (1/10 from the field).

The infamous migraine game where he pretty much admitted the pressure got to him.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]And MJ might've won his first title a year sooner in 1990 if Pippen didn't have [B]the worst game EVER for a 2nd fiddle start in a game 7.
[/B]
2 point (1/10 from the field).[/QUOTE]

Like you really know this for a fact.. Gasol's 2nd fiddle in the 2010 finals game 7 was probably worse given the volume of the [I]suckery[/I]

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Like you really know this for a fact.. Gasol's 2nd fiddle in the 2010 finals game 7 was probably worse given the volume of the [I]suckery[/I][/QUOTE]

:facepalm I'm a Laker fan. I saw that game like 10 times. Gasol was the MVP of game 7 along with Artest.

another fact: jordan never went up against the super teams of the '80s e.g. the celtics, lakers and sixers.

when playing teams on the level you're on, or better, homecourt just doesn't really matter.

the bulls were simply better than everyone they played from 91 & on.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][B]another fact: jordan never went up against the super teams of the '80s e.g. the celtics,[/B] lakers and sixers.

when playing teams on the level you're on, or better, homecourt just doesn't really matter.

the bulls were simply better than everyone they played from 91 & on.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm Do you not even take the time to read my OP?

This is what's fun about being a fan of the GOAT, you have truth on your side. It's like having God on your side, you just can't lose. The deeper you dig, the clearer the truth is revealed. This is just stuff I do when I have time at work. I dig up MJ stuff and see what I can come up with. And viola, another truth revealed about MJ.

In due time, when you youngsters (not meant to be derogatory in any way) have watched and played the game for a few decades and had the chance to watch dynastic teams rise and fall and legends come and go, you too will see the truth.

MJ very well might be the GOAT for eternity and I'm not saying this as a homer. I saw with my own eyes what he did on the court. His impact might never be duplicated.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]:facepalm Do you not even take the time to read my OP?[/QUOTE]

of course, which is why i mentioned the sixers & lakers (with KAJ). you didn't have them in your OP. :confusedshrug:

your little factoid is silly, because jordan's bulls never played a super team when they had homecourt.

unlike bird and his celtics
unlike magic and his lakers
unlike doctor j and his sixers

do your homework kiddo

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]:facepalm I'm a Laker fan. I saw that game like 10 times. Gasol was the MVP of game 7 along with Artest.[/QUOTE]

That's why I said Gasol's 2nd fiddle not Gasol.. we agree.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]1984-85 - Bulls 38-44 - Lost to Milwaukee (59-23)
1985-86 - Bulls 30-52 - Lost to Celtics (67-15) - [B]Champs[/B]
1986-87 - Bulls 40-42 - Lost to Celtics (59-23) - Lost Finals
1987-88 - Bulls 50-32 - Lost to Pistons (54-28) - Lost Finals
1988-89 - Bulls 47-35 - Lost to Pistons (63-19) - [B]Champs[/B]
1989-90 - Bulls 55-27 - Lost to Pistons (59-23) - [B]Champs[/B]


MJs numbers from this period (first 6 seasons):

Reg season: [B]32.8 PPG, 29.9 PER, 6.3 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.8 spg[/B]
Playoffs: [B]35.8 PPG, 29.7 PER, 6.9 rpg, 6.7 apg, 2.5 spg[/B]

We all know what he did starting the 1990-91 season. But this gives you a perspective on what type of help MJ had and what type of teams he had to go up against. All-time great, legendary teams. [B]He really had no chance. [/B]It wasn't until Pippen and Grant matured along with PJ coming on board as coach when MJ had enough firepower to start beating elite teams. But look at his individual numbers during this time, just dominant from the get go. This is what the GOAT does.

Drop the mic.[/QUOTE]
He had no chance?

1989 Bulls and Pistons. Series tied at 2 apiece and game 5 was most likely the biggest playoff game in MJ's career up to that point.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html[/url]

:wtf: :confusedshrug: ........what happen???

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]This is what's fun about being a fan of the GOAT, you have truth on your side.[B] It's like having God on your side[/B], you just can't lose. [B]The deeper you dig, the clearer the truth is revealed[/B]. This is just stuff I do when I have time at work. I dig up MJ stuff and see what I can come up with. And viola, another truth revealed about MJ.

In due time, when you youngsters (not meant to be derogatory in any way) have watched and played the game for a few decades and had the chance to watch dynastic teams rise and fall and legends come and go, you too will see the truth.

MJ very well might be the GOAT for eternity and I'm not saying this as a homer. I saw with my own eyes what he did on the court. His impact might never be duplicated.[/QUOTE]
Not a great analogy.

I like the post though

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]of course, which is why i mentioned the sixers & lakers (with KAJ). you didn't have them in your OP. :confusedshrug:

your little factoid is silly, because jordan's bulls never played a super team when they had homecourt.

unlike bird and his celtics
unlike magic and his lakers
unlike doctor j and his sixers

do your homework kiddo[/QUOTE]

The Sixers were past it by MJ's time so why even bring them up? MJ lost to two legendary teams for five straight years and he beat Magic's Lakers in 1991.

Keep coming with the lame excuses. It's entertaining.

Meh, I'm a Jordan fan but this "fact" has always sounded contrived and without context.

Maybe that's just me though :confusedshrug:

As he should. He had the superior team.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Meh, I'm a Jordan fan but this "fact" has always sounded contrived and without context.

Maybe that's just me though :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

It's true. I looked it up and the facts are in front of you in the OP. No point in checking 1990-91 onward because MJ never lost a series.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]The Sixers were past it by MJ's time so why even bring them up? MJ lost to two legendary teams for five straight years and he beat Magic's Lakers in 1991.

Keep coming with the lame excuses. It's entertaining.[/QUOTE]

because jordan never faced superteams by the time they finally were awared home court.

you really need to do more research. jordan fans think the league started in the 90s, but its not totally their fault. the media has warped these poor souls.

btw- the lakers were missing kaj (retired), and byron scott/james worthy were injured throughout the series (even missed the last game) - los angeles in 1991 was not a super team. in fact, what magic did by taking them to the finals was considered herculean.

Getting into an argument AGAIN with Laz about Wilt had me thinking about this. The "Big Dipper" choked away two playoff series when he had the HCA against Russell's Celtics in 1968 and 1969. So I wanted to see what MJ was about in those situations.

[B][U]I wonder if any other legend can boast this fact. [/U][/B]

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]It's true. I looked it up and the facts are in front of you in the OP. No point in checking 1990-91 onward because MJ never lost a series.[/QUOTE]

Where did I say they weren't true? Its just a dumb fact imo, and devoid of any context.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Where did I say they weren't true? Its just a dumb fact imo, and devoid of any context.[/QUOTE]

I think it's an interesting fact. I wonder if any other legend can boast this claim.

FACTS. Bulls never once lost when they were supposed to win. They always handled business. When they lost, they lost to vastly superior teams that they had little chance against (besides Orlando). 24-0 with homecourt. And they even managed to win 6 series without homecourt.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]I think it's an interesting fact. I wonder if any other legend can boast this claim.[/QUOTE]

no you don't wonder, we know nobody else has this, this context-less fact.

I always wondered what happened to MJ in '95.

He basically replaced Horace Grant on a roster that went 55-27 without him in '94 (and in fact Grant and Pippen missed a combined 22 games....or they would have easily won 60+) ...and that team lost a close and controversial seven game series to a NY team that would lose a seven game series to a 58-24 Rockets team in the Finals.

And yet, with all that surrounding talent....they were beaten 4-2 in the ECSF's by a team that would get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.

Luckily for MJ, the Bulls then ADDED Rodman to that roster, and the rest was history.

[QUOTE=Young X]FACTS. Bulls never once lost when they were supposed to win. They always handled business. When they lost, they lost to vastly superior teams that they had little chance against (besides Orlando). 24-0 with homecourt. And they even managed to win 6 series without homecourt.[/QUOTE]

GOAT gonna GOAT. It really is amazing when you see the teams he faced before the emergence of Pip/Grant and PJ coming on board.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]He had no chance?

1989 Bulls and Pistons. Series tied at 2 apiece and game 5 was most likely the biggest playoff game in MJ's career up to that point.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html[/url]

:wtf: :confusedshrug: ........what happen???[/QUOTE]
hello, McFly???

Well this pretty much ends the 1-9 criticism.

Well done OP. Well done. :applause:

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]He had no chance?

1989 Bulls and Pistons. Series tied at 2 apiece and game 5 was most likely the biggest playoff game in MJ's career up to that point.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html[/url]

:wtf: :confusedshrug: ........what happen???[/QUOTE]

Context is key here. When looking back, we see that the Pistons were in the midst of a dynasty. They were just the better team. MJ having an off game means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yes, even the GOAT can have off games. :cheers:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][B]I always wondered what happened to MJ in '95.
[/B]
He basically replaced Horace Grant on a roster that went 55-27 without him in '94 (and in fact Grant and Pippen missed a combined 22 games....or they would have easily won 60+) ...and that team lost a close and controversial seven game series to a NY team that would lose a seven game series to a 58-24 Rockets team in the Finals.

And yet, with all that surrounding talent....they were beaten 4-2 in the ECSF's by a team that would get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.

Luckily for MJ, the Bulls then ADDED Rodman to that roster, and the rest was history.[/QUOTE]

MJ only played 17 games. He simply didn't have his basketball legs under him and just wasn't in rhythm with his teammates. It takes longer than 17 games to get in sync with the game. And he proved this by 3 peating. :cheers:

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Context is key here. When looking back, we see that the Pistons were in the midst of a dynasty. They were just the better team. MJ having an off game means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yes, even the GOAT can have off games. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Why does MJ get needed context, but not the other way around?

That in and of itself shows you why this is a contrived achievement (nevermind a team one). Nobody would think any less of MJ, or you, if you just admitted that. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Context is key here. When looking back, we see that the Pistons were in the midst of a dynasty. They were just the better team. MJ having an off game means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yes, even the GOAT can have off games. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

But an injured Wilt losing to the greatest dynasty in NBA history, and in a series in which he pummelled Russell counts against Wilt.

Makes perfect sense.

MJ gets an excuse for his numbers declining considerably against the Bad Boys, and for quitting on his team in a pivotal game five...but no excuses for Wilt.

Yep...no bias there.

I always bring this up and I'm gonna do it again. In Jordan's 15 seasons he was on a contender only from '90-'98.

Outside of those years, every other team he was on was terrible.

He and the Bulls had about 7 realistic chances to win a ring and they ended up with 6 of them.

The one they didn't get? Took the defending (and eventual repeat champion) Pistons to game 7 of the ECF as the underdog in 1990. Jordan averaged about 32/7/6 on 57 TS% in the series against one of the toughest defenses of all time. Maybe they could've won if Pippen didn't have that migraine.

[QUOTE=Young X]I always bring this up and I'm gonna do it again. In Jordan's 15 seasons he was on a contender only from '90-'98.

Outside of those years, every other team he was on was terrible.

He and the Bulls had about 7 realistic chances to win a ring and they ended up with 6 of them.

The one they didn't get? Took the defending (and eventual repeat champion) Pistons to game 7 of the ECF as the underdog in 1990. Jordan averaged about 32/7/6 on 57 TS% in the series against one of the toughest defenses of all time. Maybe they could've won if Pippen didn't have that migraine.[/QUOTE]

And '95?

Replacing Grant on a 55 win roster?

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Context is key here. When looking back, we see that the Pistons were in the midst of a dynasty. They were just the better team. MJ having an off game means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yes, even the GOAT can have off games. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
An off-game is 7-26 or 6-27

Only registering 8FGA in the biggest playoff game of your career sounds more like he quit or gave up before the game even started.

So in short, the Bulls DID really have a chance. Could have went up 3-2 in the series with game 6 in Chicago, but MJ had other plans.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]MJ only played 17 games. He simply didn't have his basketball legs under him and just wasn't in rhythm with his teammates. It takes longer than 17 games to get in sync with the game. And he proved this by 3 peating. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

But an injured Wilt, or a Wilt who had major knee surgery, came back way before expectations, played three poor regular season games...and loses a game seven in the Finals against a heavily-favored Knick team, in a game in which he hung a 21-24 statline, in a series in which he hung a 23-24 .625 FG% stat-line? Nope, no excuses for Wilt.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]An off-game is 7-26 or 6-27

Only registering 8FGA in the biggest playoff game of your career [B]sounds more like he quit or gave up before the game even started.
[/B]
So in short, the Bulls DID really have a chance. Could have went up 3-2 in the series with game 6 in Chicago, but MJ had other plans.[/QUOTE]

He DID quit. Flat out quit on his team.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And '95?

Replacing Grant on a 55 win roster?[/QUOTE]- No homecourt
- 5th seed
- Only 17 games with the team coming from baseball

:applause:

[QUOTE=Young X]- No homecourt
- 5th seed
- [B]Only 17 games [/B]with the team coming from baseball

:applause:[/QUOTE]
Yet after his 4th or 5th game back, he dropped 55 on the Knicks and the word was:

"MJ's back, he never missed a beat. He's GOD!!!!"

[QUOTE=Young X]- No homecourt
- 5th seed
- Only 17 games with the team coming from baseball

:applause:[/QUOTE]

So Grant was more valuable to this same roster than MJ was?

Again, luckily for MJ that ownership realized that...and then ADDED Rodman to a roster that had MJ replacing a player on a 55 win team.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Yet after his 4th or 5th game back, he dropped 55 on the Knicks and the word was:

"MJ's back, he never missed a beat. He's GOD!!!!"[/QUOTE]
Whqt does that have to do with the OP? He never lost with HCA

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Why does MJ get needed context, but not the other way around?

That in and of itself shows you why this is a contrived achievement (nevermind a team one). Nobody would think any less of MJ, or you, if you just admitted that. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]But an injured Wilt losing to the greatest dynasty in NBA history, and in a series in which he pummelled Russell counts against Wilt.

Makes perfect sense.

MJ gets an excuse for his numbers declining considerably against the Bad Boys, and for quitting on his team in a pivotal game five...but no excuses for Wilt.

Yep...no bias there.[/QUOTE]

exactly

ok - jordan didn't lose with homecourt. all well and fine, but don't pretend jordan did it playing any of the teams in the op. or the teams i listed on the first page.