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kind of an extension of the nash vs cp3 thread - i was legitimately surprised so many posters took nash over him.
i would too, but i thought it would be closer is all.
anyway, between the 3 in the title, who's the better player & who would you take in the playoffs, assuming the team is built around the players strength? :confusedshrug:
for me this is between Kidd vs Payton for first, hard to choose. Probably go with GP
[QUOTE=DaOldLion]for me this is between Kidd vs Payton for first, hard to choose. Probably go with GP[/QUOTE]
at his best, gp lead a team to the finals, was the only player i can think of that legimately shut down jordan (last 3 games of that series) won a dpoy over pippen, dream, rodman, robinson, etc., while still averaging 20 & 7. cp3 and kidd were great, but i think i'll take glove as well.
i don't question his competitive drive, or who he got his numbers against - a huge plus for me.
It's close between Kidd and Payton. I think I lead towards J-Kidd, then Glove, then Chris Paul.
CP3 is definitely better than the other 2. He can run the best offense in the league while playing All-NBA defense. How many other players at the PG position could you say that about? His skill level and all around play are superior to Kidd and Payton.
Payton is 2nd. He and Kidd are 2 of the best defenders at that position but Payton was a much better offensive player than Kidd and offense is the most important thing I look for in a PG.
Frankly this is between CP and Kidd for best and Payton third. CP can operate a much better NBa offense due to his playmaking ability which is far superior to Payton's. Kidd was like mini lebron in a sense meaning he could put up big time numbers and also carry a teams offense. He had some great numbers the seasons he made the finals. I don't see Payton being able to do what Kidd and cp do.
[QUOTE=Young X]CP3 is definitely better than the other 2. He can run the best offense in the league while playing All-NBA defense. How many other players at the PG position could you say that about? His skill level and all around play are superior to Kidd and Payton.
Payton is 2nd. He and Kidd are 2 of the best defenders at that position but Payton was a much better offensive player than Kidd and offense is the most important thing I look for in a PG.[/QUOTE]
Paul is the best of the 3, but Kidd was better than Payton.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Paul is the best of the 3, but Kidd was better than Payton.[/QUOTE]Why?
[QUOTE=Young X]Why?[/QUOTE]
Kidd made his teammates better and could control the flow of a game and dictate pace better than Payton.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Kidd made his teammates better and could control the flow of a game and dictate pace better than Payton.[/QUOTE]Yeah, but he was a mediocre/bad scorer. He was a limited and inefficient offensive player.
Outside of one year, he never led even an average offense. They were all either below average or bad.
Payton wasn't the best scorer either but he was a better offensive anchor than Kidd was.
Kidd is quite comfortably the worst player of the three.
They are close but I would take Payton at his peak everytime over the other two..
Tough question.
CP3 is a better offensive player, but Kidd and GP's size and defense skills/versatility is hard to pass up.
I would likely take Kidd first. He may not have the offensive game as GP and CP3, but his leadership skills were off the chart. Guys loved playing with Kidd, I can't say that for CP3 and GP and that is really important IMO when comes to the PG positions.
It is a toss between GP and CP3 for second.
prime peyton shitts on this 2 losers
[QUOTE=game3524]Tough question.
CP3 is a better offensive player, but Kidd and GP's size and defense skills/versatility is hard to pass up.
I would likely take Kidd first. He may not have the offensive game as GP and CP3, but his leadership skills were off the chart. Guys loved playing with Kidd, I can't say that for CP3 and GP and that is really important IMO when comes to the PG positions.
It is a toss between GP and CP3 for second.[/QUOTE]
its amazing really.
you got magic, oscar, isiah, and nash comfortably ahead of cp3 - and now the three in my op are a tossup.. i actually forgot about john stockton, so if anybody wants to give him love, go ahead and include him in this discussion.
if anything the topics over the last several weeks have exposed cp3 as an overrated point guard, and guys after magic/oscar/isiah as completely underrated.
the nash vs cp3 thread was like 90% in favor of nash..
CP3 is the better player but as far as careers go, he's the third. Kidd had the best career although individually he's the worst.
I'd probably take Gary Payton. It's either him or Jason Kidd.
I'd give the edge to Payton because of his scoring ability.
From GP himself [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOxgV1Tcw3w&feature=youtu.be&t=1m34s[/url]
Kidd turned around one of the worst organiztions in the league and took them to back to back finals. Prime Kidd is one of the few players in history who could dominate a game without scoring a point.
Gary Payton.
Not mentioning his basketball skills:
Tough, strong, vocal, trash talker
:applause:
Kidd
CP3
Payton
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]at his best, gp lead a team to the finals, was the only player i can think of that legimately shut down jordan (last 3 games of that series) won a dpoy over pippen, dream, rodman, robinson, etc., while still averaging 20 & 7. cp3 and kidd were great, but i think i'll take glove as well.
i don't question his competitive drive, or who he got his numbers against - a huge plus for me.[/QUOTE]
We don't agree on too many things, but you're spot on. Dude was a beast on both ends of the court.
Prime Payton averaged 21/8/5/2 with DPOY level defense. CP3 for his career averages 19/4/10/2 with worse defense than GP.
paul is the most efficient, effective offensive player, but the worst defender of the bunch and the worst intangibles. His pouty, bratty attitude rubs off on teammates.. just makes them softer than they would be if they had kidd or gp leading by tough example. I have it kidd > payton > paul.
[QUOTE=tpols]paul is the most efficient, effective offensive player, but the worst defender of the bunch and the worst intangibles. His pouty, bratty attitude rubs off on teammates.. just makes them softer than they would be if they had kidd or gp leading by tough example. I have it kidd > payton > paul.[/QUOTE]
How is Kidd better than GP?
[QUOTE=aj1987]How is Kidd better than GP?[/QUOTE]
GP is more man to man defense, and individual scoring skill, while kidd is more team defense/rebounding, and less individual scoring skill but a better team player/genius level team IQ, pace control etc. Id rather have that stuff in my PG than what GP has, which seems like a more useful skillset for a combo guard or sg.
[QUOTE=tpols]GP is more man to man defense, and individual scoring skill, while kidd is more team defense/rebounding, and less individual scoring skill but a better team player/genius level team IQ, pace control etc. Id rather have that stuff in my PG than what GP has, which seems like a more useful skillset for a combo guard or sg.[/QUOTE]
GP took his team within 2 games of winning the title against the '96 Bulls. He's an elite team defender as well. Overall defense is definitely GP. Definitely a better rebounder and a playmaker. No question about that, but dude was inefficient AF and couldn't score. His best statistical season, he averaged 24/7/9/2. Those are LeBron numbers. 22/5/8/2 over 7 seasons.
Dude is literally one of the only players to have "shut down" MJ over multiple games in a series.
[QUOTE=aj1987]GP took his team within 2 games of winning the title against the '96 Bulls. He's an elite team defender as well. Overall defense is definitely GP. Definitely a better rebounder and a playmaker. No question about that, but dude was inefficient AF and couldn't score. His best statistical season, he averaged 24/7/9/2. Those are LeBron numbers. 22/5/8/2 over 7 seasons.
Dude is literally one of the only players to have "shut down" MJ over multiple games in a series.[/QUOTE]
I have no issue with someone taking GP, but I'm curious...was Payton better than Nash in your opinion?
[QUOTE=tpols]paul is the most efficient, effective offensive player, but the worst defender of the bunch and the worst intangibles. His pouty, bratty attitude rubs off on teammates.. just makes them softer than they would be if they had kidd or gp leading by tough example. I have it kidd > payton > paul.[/QUOTE]
There is no doubt that Paul's tactics and his time spent whining and crying and gaming the game...rather than just playing the game has been a serious detriment to both his team and himself. Legit could have cost them a chance at the title in 14 because he was too busy trying to game the system.
However, Paul is clearly the most complete player of the group and really doesn't have a weakness when it comes to skillset.
Now, I take your point and agree with it...but it's hard to really get to the bottom of this one because I don't know if Paul's attitude and playoff results are more products of his circumstances rather than a reflection of his true impact/value.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I have no issue with someone taking GP, but I'm curious...was Payton better than Nash in your opinion?[/QUOTE]
With PG's, it depends entirely upon the team. If it was just a random team, I'd pick GP. Dude could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Nash could do only two of those at an elite level for PG's. Nash is a fantastic player, but so was GP. His defense is getting significantly undervalued. Nash could put up 20 points and 10 assists, but what's the use if he's giving up 25+ on the other end?
1. Paul
2. Payton
3. Kidd
[QUOTE=aj1987]GP took his team within 2 games of winning the title against the '96 Bulls. He's an elite team defender as well. Overall defense is definitely GP. Definitely a better rebounder and a playmaker. No question about that, but dude was inefficient AF and couldn't score. His best statistical season, he averaged 24/7/9/2. Those are LeBron numbers. 22/5/8/2 over 7 seasons.
[B]Dude is literally[/B] one of the only players to have "shut down" MJ over multiple games in a series.[/QUOTE]
someone just said that here thanks :oldlol:
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183977"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183977[/URL]
[QUOTE=aj1987]With PG's, it depends entirely upon the team. If it was just a random team, I'd pick GP. Dude could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Nash could do only two of those at an elite level for PG's. Nash is a fantastic player, but so was GP. His defense is getting significantly undervalued. Nash could put up 20 points and 10 assists, but what's the use if he's giving up 25+ on the other end?[/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing Nash was better. I was just curious who you thought was better.
[QUOTE=GrapeApe]Kidd turned around one of the worst organiztions in the league and took them to back to back finals. Prime Kidd is one of the few players in history who could dominate a game without scoring a point.[/QUOTE]
In the worst conference ever.. and one of those years aided by a Billups injury.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]In the worst conference ever.. and one of those years aided by a Billups injury.[/QUOTE]
it's all relative.. kidd had Kenyon martin and Jason Collins. CP3 has blake griffin and deandre Jordan.
Jkidd faced lesser competition, but he had lesser teammates so it evens out.
[QUOTE=tpols]it's all relative.. kidd had Kenyon martin and Jason Collins. CP3 has blake griffin and deandre Jordan.
Jkidd faced lesser competition, but he had lesser teammates so it evens out.[/QUOTE]
I don't think DJ is even worth noting, tbh...
I don't see Kidd coming nearly as close to the WCF in '08 as Paul did, nor even make it past the Spurs in '15 (Paul had a historic series).. and right from the set up I don't see him leading the Clippers to the same regular season success, Paul led league leading offenses, I don't really have a thing for PG's that shoot in the low 40's/high 30's.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]I don't think DJ is even worth noting, tbh...
I don't see Kidd coming nearly as close to the WCF in '08 as Paul did, nor even make it past the Spurs in '15 (Paul had a historic series).. and right from the set up I don't see him leading the Clippers to the same regular season success, Paul led league leading offenses, I don't really have a thing for PG's that shoot in the low 40's/high 30's.[/QUOTE]
DJ is worth noting in comparison to early 00s Nets centers.. he's a vast upgrade.
the Kidd K-mart chemistry was a thing of beauty on both ends.. the blocks, steals, alley oops from half court, open floor game.. I cant even imagine what kidd would do with weapons around the rim like blake griffin and Jordan. That would be a sight to behold.
Agree on the offense not being as good with Kidd.. would be more exciting but less effective especially half court offense, but the defense and team discipline would improve 10 fold. The Clippers have all the talent to compete for titles but have a middling defense. If Kidd could drag the guys he had to the number 1 defense in the league he could certainly make the clippers a very elite defense as well. They were ranked 15th last year in defense... that's dogshit for a playoff team.
And Jkidd's defense and the type of D he inspires his squad to play will never choke or disappear in the playoffs like paul's offense can.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater][B]In the worst conference ever.[/B]. and one of those years aided by a Billups injury.[/QUOTE]
Lebron made finals on the same level conference and he was trash in finals. But people says that Lebron's 2007 was epic and Kidd's b2b finals was trash , right?
Double standard .
[QUOTE=tpols]it's all relative.. kidd had Kenyon martin and Jason Collins. CP3 has blake griffin and deandre Jordan.
Jkidd faced lesser competition, but he had lesser teammates so it evens out.[/QUOTE]No it doesn't even out.
The Nets were still the best team in the east, facing inferior teams in every round and had homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs.
The Clippers were the 3rd-5th seed and had to face the Spurs (twice), Thunder, Warriors, Grizzlies, and Rockets. Most of those series on the road.
The Nets had to beat the 44 win Baron Davis/Jamal Mashburn Hornets to the conference finals.
The Clippers had to get through the 59 win Durant/Westbrook Thunder to get to the conference finals.
Kidd faced ONE 50 win team to get to the finals in the those years, CP3 never faced a team with less than 51 wins in the playoffs.
The east in the early 00's was a complete joke. There's a reason Kidd went from either losing in the 1st round or missing the playoffs in his first 7 seasons playing in the west to immediately getting to the finals as soon as he went to the east.
[QUOTE=feyki]Lebron made finals on the same level conference and he was trash in finals. But people says that Lebron's 2007 was epic and Kidd's b2b finals was trash , right?
Double standard .[/QUOTE]
Nobody says that.. the 2008-2012 East is SUBSTANTIALLY better than the 2000-2003 and 2007 East...
LeBron wasn't even top 3 in 2007, his run isn't very impressive to me at all, for the same reasons Kidd's wasn't. Bron did however have one of the greatest games ever, that is undeniable.
[QUOTE=aj1987]GP took his team within 2 games of winning the title against the '96 Bulls. [B]He's an elite team defender as well.[/B] Overall defense is definitely GP. Definitely a better rebounder and a playmaker. No question about that, but dude was inefficient AF and couldn't score. His best statistical season, he averaged 24/7/9/2. Those are LeBron numbers. 22/5/8/2 over 7 seasons.
Dude is literally one of the only players to have "shut down" MJ over multiple games in a series.[/QUOTE]
No...he isn't. Payton has become one of the most overrated pg's ever because of how he was allowed to do whatever the hell he wanted after the Sonics title aspirations ended. He was NEVER an elite team defender and his impact defensively was never as high as Kidds overall.
Kidd
CP3
Payton
Here's what the Nets faced on their way to the finals...
42 win Pacers
44 win Hornets
49 win Celtics
42 win Bucks
44 win Celtics
50 win Pistons
You gotta be f*cking kidding me.
They faced one good team in 6 rounds. They faced TWO 44 win teams in the 2nd round. What a f*cking joke.